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So... The Rogue has to spend 2 skill points per level to keep Bluff and Sense Motive maxed out. The Bard has to spend 1 skill point per level to keep Bluff and Sense Motive maxed out (also worth noting, the Bard uses his Charisma modifier for Sense Motive). And for some reason, you think the Rogue is better off than the Bard?A rogue who does not Bluff or Sense Motive doesn't have to do this at all. A Bard who choses this as his perform can ONLY do this to these two skills. OR else the Bard loses a class bonus, effectively. Who is most versatile, the person who doesn't have to do something, or the one that loses his entire classes bonus if he doesn't?
As I pointed out: it's a wash if you don't consider FLY a valuable skill (because in my campaigns it has never factored in very much, but hey, you might be running "The Flying Bards of Baldur's Gate" - I dunno...). Likewise, Handle Animal might be useless in a campaign. Which means that these are really not bonuses to the Bard class, right?
Once again, let's see a 10th level Rogue's skills. A viable set. I'll bet you the Bard does better. Especially since they can use spells to boos 'em.
I don't think the rogue can be salvaged at this point. No changes will help, it needs to be scrapped and completely rewritten.
(aka 'We printed the Investigator')
If you throw buffs at it. It can become decent.
changes:
1. 1d6 sneak attack per level instead of 1d6 per 2 levels.
2. One rogue talent per level instead of one per level.
3. New ability: Skill bonus: A rogue gains a +1 untype bonus to a skill of her choice. She gains a number of these bonuses each rogue level equal to the number of rogue levels she has (so 1 at lvl 1, 5 at level 5 and so on). These bonuses stack with themselves.
Justification:
Rogues are basically the lost love child between slayers and inquisitors. I decided against bonuses to-hit because that just encourages strength builds. Not power-attacking + flanking/invisible/flat-footed-AC is really enough for actually hitting things. The boost to damage keeps the DPR where it needs to be, while being a little strong at lower levels (Oh no!). The extra rogue talents is to allow for branching out and actually making some of the situational ones more build viable. Right not I only have 1 rogue build I like. I would like to be able to make more, and more rogue talents would help with that.
EDIT: From what I've seen the investogator can barely fight. Less so than even the current rogue.
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10th level Rogue Skill set:
1. Stealth +10 Ranks
2. Appraise +10 Ranks
3. Heal +10 Ranks (or climb)
4. Disable Device +10 Ranks
5. Perception +10 Ranks
6. Slight of Hand +10 Ranks
7. UMD +10 Ranks
8. Escape Artist +10 Ranks
What Bard can beat that at tenth level level? None... Because they only get 60 points to spend on THOSE skills... Making the Rogue 20 ranks better with that skill set than any Bard.
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So you have a Rogue with absolutely no points in Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, *any* Knowledge or Sense Motive? And you're saying *all* of those skills are not valuable?
Why should a rogue do this... we all already admitted the Bard is better at theses skills... didn't we? Maybe s/he's not that kind of rogue. Maybe they are the aforementioned (statted for level 10) stealthy pick pocket with a knack for slipping out of bonds and staying in the shadows... Who knows, maybe they are simply anti-social and don't have ANY interpersonal skills (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motives). The point is THEY could be either... the bard is STUCK being the personable socialite.
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Not sure if understanding. You are sayign that rogues are fine because they could (perhaps) be better at the weaker skills? It doe snot sound a good argument to me.
"The weaker skills"? Stealth is not a weaker skill. Perception CERTAINLY is not. UMD? Nope, pretty potent in a magic world. What are YOU talking about? I am saying BARDS are not as great just because THEY are better at weaker skills (*like FLY and Handle Animal). Hope that clears up any of your confusion regarding what I was saying.
I mean, OK, a Bard gets to sub a perform skill for Fly... a completely useless bonus if there are no flying rides around. YAY! So how does having "points in this perform" really make a Bard better than a Rogue who simply spent 10 points somewhere else? Seems like the bard's ability is completely neutralized, it gets the Dance and the Acrobatics at the same rank... while the Rogue simply took the Acrobatics. Its a wash. It would only be "better" to be the Bard in a flying campaign setting. Anywhere else the Rogue is not worse. Again, Handle Animal? Same thing. Percussion or Wind instruments, and Intimidate or Diplomacy... while a rogue just took either of those skills.
OK. So a Bard has "loads more ranks"... in duplicate skills (perform). Otherwise it is pretty much a wash. It is like taking 4 different craft or profession skills... it provides no real benefit after the first (or in the Bard's case, after you start overlapping skills or the skills end up being useless in the campaign).
By time you get to 10th level, every rogue can have eight skills at +10 - that is 2 1/2 times better than any feat gives you. Think about that.But a bard can have up to 12 skills and easily at least 10 skills at +10 at 10th level. If we ignore Perform skills (which we shouldn't, since there are class powers tied to it, but I'll do it for the argument), then the bard can easily have 6 (base) -2 (Perform) +4 (Versatile Performance) = 8 skills at +10 as well, and potentially 6 -3 +6 = 9 skills at +10, beating the Rogue.
But some people don't want play Bards and that is something a lot of people seem to miss.
It's not always about who is better at a certain task, it's about role playing a character. Rogues have never had a problem getting their jobs done.
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10th level Rogue Skill set:
1. Stealth +10 Ranks
2. Appraise +10 Ranks
3. Heal +10 Ranks (or climb)
4. Disable Device +10 Ranks
5. Perception +10 Ranks
6. Slight of Hand +10 Ranks
7. UMD +10 Ranks
8. Escape Artist +10 RanksWhat Bard can beat that at tenth level level? None... Because they only get 60 points to spend on THOSE skills... Making the Rogue 20 ranks better with that skill set than any Bard.
Okay. If you're gonna avoid Versatile Performance stuff and Knowledges, I'll go Archaeologist:
1. Stealth +10 Ranks
2. Appraise +7 Ranks
3. Disable Device +10 Ranks
4. Perception +10 Ranks
5. Slight of Hand +7 Ranks
6. UMD +10 Ranks
7. Escape Artist +7 Ranks
8. Heal +9 ranks
He can afford the higher Int by dropping Wis, since he has a good Will Save. And has spells for healing, making Heal superfluous, but has it anyway. Oh, and he's actually just as good at all those 7 ranked skills as the Rogue due to Archaeologist's Luck + Fate's Favored (and them being instant actions). And is significantly better on those of higher rank for the same reason. And that's not even counting spells like the above one does. With those it gets much, much worse (+20 extra to Stealth and Perception, +10 Escape Artist, etc.)
So yeah.
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what the rogue NEEDS:
-sneak attack to not be so limited: by RAW, the safest place to fight a rogue is a dark alley (since concealment completely cancels SA). that is completely unacceptable. an option for that might be granting the shadowstrike feat either for free or bundled into sneak attack (much like the monk's unarmed strike ability granting IUS in a roundabout way)
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-they dont need full BAB, but they need SOME way to increase accuracy: almost* every other 3/4 bab class has a way to increase their accuracy (inquisitors get judgments, bards have performances, magus has arcane pool boosts--not counting the SPELLCASTING they get for buffs and the like). if you say 'flanking' i will laugh at you. i'll say this once: YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SACRIFICE YOUR *TEAMMATE'S* ACTIONS TO FUNCTION PROPERLY AS A CLASS. PERIOD.
* - the only other one not in this boat is the monk, who has the same issues as the rogue here--on top of having a money-leech strapped to his throat
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-having only one good save is begging for death in the late game. they need either some way to boost their saves or a second good save, otherwise once SoLs and SoDs hit the playing field, the rogue is toast.
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-paizo needs to stop hating rogue talents: barbarians can use other human beings as weapons and smash a prismatic wall with their forehead. rogues get SA-altering things that you cant stack, abilities that make you WORSE at things (lookin' at you rumormonger), things that make your already abysmal accuracy even WORSE, and lackluster abilities that are only usable 1/day, making the talent completely useless. currently the "best" rogue talents give you feats--the other talents are THAT bad.
there are several things you could do to rectify this: remove the 1/day limitations from the talents (or dial it back to '1/day + 1/3-5 levels'), add talents that rectify the above problems, add talents to make a meaningful addition to the rogue's repertoire, and take a good hard look at the existing rogue talents and ask yourself "does this compare to a rage power that isn't named 'raging [skill name]'". if the answer is 'no', you have a problem.
heck! you could introduce rogue talent trees like the barbarian totems: three-stage rogue talent lines that make the rogue better at a particular idea of rogue-itude (one for strength/thug rogues, one for dextrous/sneaky rogues--with some way to add dex to damage as players have been foaming at the mouth for that, one for intelligent/skillful rogues, and one for charismatic/social rogues). they'd be mutually exclusive (like the totems), and offer actually GOOD bonuses to what they're focusing on, allowing people to go with whatever type of rogue they want (and stop arguing over which one is the 'correct' rogue for gods' sake)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
what the rogue WANTS:
-to be the master of skills--not just a class with lots of skill points, but to actually be better than its peers (especially those pompous bards and alchemists) at doing things with skills.
you could give them something like the old 3.5e skill synergy bonuses--and make them rogue-exclusive, or have them able to pick up feats like stealthy and it's ilk every few levels (like the human focused study alt. racial feature)
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-to actually be able to sneak attack things regularly: due to SA's restrictive nature, you're usually stuck as the scout archetype, TWF/feinting, or using completely outlandish methods (like shooting from inside a tiny hut spell, or using smokesticks as a cover, or pouring feats into an animal companion) to use your CORE COMBAT FEATURE.
you could always beg your party to position themselves so you can flank, but see my comment above on flanking for a more thorough explanation.
the ninja alternate class manages alright due to having vanish/greater invisibility on-tap, but not everyone allows/wants to play a ninja in their game.
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-versatility: in combat, having some means to contribute to your overall success is helpful. debuffs are a nice outlet for this--talents that let you trade out X of your SA dice for a debuff might find some popularity--or combat maneuvers such as steal, disarm, dirty trick (which IS debuffs), and so on.
out of combat, and even in the character-making phase, the rogue has a schizophrenic problem to it--everyone sees the rogue as different. some see the rogue as a bandit who fights dirty and hounds travelers for their gold, others see it as a dashing thief wooing the ladies as he lightens their purses, others as a stealthy assassin, and others still as a jack-of-all-trades (though the bard's got them beat there)
having ways to better focus on the player's mental version of the rogue would help alleviate many of the forum arguments on which rogue is the "correct" rogue (the answer should be "all of them so shut up already").
this could be alleviated by the totem-esque suggestion above, or by some other means to better tailor your skills to your version of the rogue--archetypes certainly help, but many times you'll lose out on features you might have wanted with your character idea.
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-all the other classes to stop stealing it's stuff (and being better at it!): it's ironic that the thief is getting robbed blind by other classes, with several archetypes like archaeologist bard, vivisectionist alchemist, and the trap finder TRAIT taking much of the rogue's identity, while having more auxiliary things, like spellcasting (hard to disarm a magical trap without detect magic to see the thing in the first place) or skill bonuses (bardic lore, the alchy and investigator's heavy reliance on INT). on top of, you know, actually being able to hit things in combat and contribute meaningfully to their party via buffs and such.
even it's 'children' the investigator and slayer are by and large considered straight up better than the rogue--particularly the investigator, who boasts not only better skills, but ways to boost them, an accuracy AND static damage booster, access to rogue talents AND alchemist discoveries, and inbuilt talents that actually modify the class in a meaningful way.
the ONLY bad thing about the investigator is how dumb poison lore is: it's poison use + the ability to disable a poison after 1 minute of study--guess how else you can disable a poison? by pouring it out in the first place instead of staring at it for a minute. now, if it granted the ability to take that dose of poison and make and antivenom that canceled poison of the same type already affecting someone, that might be minorly useful.
10th level Rogue Skill set:
1. Stealth +10 Ranks
2. Appraise +10 Ranks
3. Heal +10 Ranks (or climb)
4. Disable Device +10 Ranks
5. Perception +10 Ranks
6. Slight of Hand +10 Ranks
7. UMD +10 Ranks
8. Escape Artist +10 RanksWhat Bard can beat that at tenth level level? None... Because they only get 60 points to spend on THOSE skills... Making the Rogue 20 ranks better with that skill set than any Bard.
Okay. If you're gonna avoid Versatile Performance stuff and Knowledges, I'll go Archaeologist:
1. Stealth +10 Ranks
2. Appraise +7 Ranks
3. Disable Device +10 Ranks
4. Perception +10 Ranks
5. Slight of Hand +7 Ranks
6. UMD +10 Ranks
7. Escape Artist +7 Ranks
8. Heal +9 ranksHe can afford the higher Int by dropping Wis, since he has a good Will Save. And has spells for healing, making Heal superfluous, but has it anyway. Oh, and he's actually just as good at all those 7 ranked skills as the Rogue due to Archaeologist's Luck + Fate's Favored (and them being instant actions). And is significantly better on those of higher rank for the same reason.
So yeah.
Don't forget that Archeologist's luck is 4+Cha round per day. Unless you go with Lingering song, you may run out of it quite fast if you use it on skill.
6 useful skills for the price of 3 so 60 points becomes 90... 30 points to spend on what ever, if you are using fly or handle animal then it jumps up slightly. he's also using all of these with his charisma modifier... which should be high on a bard. and then all the knowledge skills are better. All I can see is the rogue being probably better at some dex skills, but he'd have to focus those skills down.
Bluff
Disguise
Intimidate
Acrobatics
Diplomacy
Sense Motive
if your rogue is getting none of these he's... being weird.
by my count there are 20 or so generally useful skills, he's specifically ignoring 30% of them to not be covered by the bard? these all are the ones usually good to have just in case.
stealth, sleight of hand, and escape artist are the only ones I think a rogue will really be trying to use that aren't on that list. maybe linguistics. (this is not taking into account things that everyone would probably find equally useful.) those are three skills... just enough for what the bard has left...
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Don't forget that Archeologist's luck is 4+Cha round per day. Unless you go with Lingering song, you may run out of it quite fast if you use it on skill.
IME, there are no Archaeologists without that Feat...making this like saying "Well unless you take Power Attack wielding a weapon in two hands isn't that much extra damage." It's true, but not very relevant.
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10th level Rogue Skill set:
1. Stealth +10 Ranks
2. Appraise +10 Ranks
3. Heal +10 Ranks (or climb)
4. Disable Device +10 Ranks
5. Perception +10 Ranks
6. Slight of Hand +10 Ranks
7. UMD +10 Ranks
8. Escape Artist +10 RanksWhat Bard can beat that at tenth level level? None... Because they only get 60 points to spend on THOSE skills... Making the Rogue 20 ranks better with that skill set than any Bard.
1. Stealth: Invisibility
2. Appraise: Pageant of the Peacock (+10 Ranks)
3. Heal: Cure Light Wounds (or Animate Rope, for Climb)
4. Disable Device: Shatter
5. Perception: +10 Ranks
6. Sleight of Hand: +10 Ranks
7. UMD: +10 Ranks (won't need to roll for tons of spells)
8. Escape Artist: GreaseSo, 40 skill points spent. To your rogue's 80.
And before you ask "Why would a Bard have those things, instead of [blank]?": Maybe s/he's not that kind of Bard.
Ah. but there is the Rub... the Bard only had 20 to spend. The other 40 they get went to Perform skills. Also, my rogue hits you with dispelling shot... so get rid of the invisibility and grease... thanks... Ps. can't a rogue use everything you listed (except the Pageant)... so Why does this make a Bard better?
ps. I am not going to argue every class vs. the Rogue... the Bard is enough for me to see CLEARLY that I never want to play a Bard UNLESS I want to min/max for INT and CHA. If you disagree, play a Bard. Yay. We're all happy.
Even with that feat, you will get what, 4+3 x 3, so maybe 21 rounds? If you run a standard day with 4 encounter, you will not have that much rounds for Skill check. Maybe what, 2 or 3?
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Ah. but there is the Rub... the Bard only had 20 to spend. The other 40 they get went to Perform skills. Also, my rogue hits you with dispelling shot... so get rid of the invisibility and grease... thanks...
Uh...Bards aren't obligated to take Performances if they don't want. And even if they do, they only need three at that level. And, as I note, can afford to drop Wis for more Int.
Also...the fact that your Rogue can dispel magic doesn't mean he would get the chance to do so. That's combat and this is a skill comparison.
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Even with that feat, you will get what, 4+3 x 3, so maybe 21 rounds? If you run a standard day with 4 encounter, you will not have that much rounds for Skill check. Maybe what, 2 or 3?
Sure, but how often does Escape Artist come up, anyway? Ditto Appraise. Both way less than once a day. Sleight of Hand is a bit more common, I'll grant, but even that isn't usually more than once or twice a day, and a lot of the time, he won't need the bonus, he can just use it if he needs.
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Ah. but there is the Rub... the Bard only had 20 to spend. The other 40 they get went to Perform skills.No they didn't. He's not that kind of Bard (boy, is that argument predictable).Also, my rogue hits you with dispelling shot... so get rid of the invisibility and grease... thanks...How, exactly, are you seeing where my invisible Bard is?
Yep. As was your argument saying "I can just substitute everything a Rogue does with magic." Can the rogue find the invisible person... well, the +10 Perception helps (only have to roll a 20... and WOW, take 10 thanks). Now I have the square I just need Shadow Strike, BF, IBF, GBF and a flanking friend to hit you with sneak attack damage. I mean we could create entire builds to "defeat" each other here... but that is kind of a huge waste of time.
I mean, the "sub with magic" argument - every class gets trumped by the "Wish" caster, right?
Also, my rogue hits you with dispelling shot... so get rid of the invisibility and grease... thanks
thats quite impressive--where's he getting dispelling shot from?
also, you're expecting to actually hit something with the rogue.
the whole magic thing is basically to show that with a snap of one's proverbial fingers you can trump a skill with little to no investment in the skill. the rogue CAN access these things, but not natively--he has to invest heavily in those skills or shell out his hard-earned WBL to emulate his peers with UMD (whose DCs can get very dicey very fast), while all they need to do is buy a scroll or *snap*.
if you dispel their magic? guess what? *snap* it's back up again.
You can vote for more than one option.
We gave Rogues full BAB and Improved Evasion for free at 12th level. That's been all the fix they needed, and its worked out really well. In our/my opinion, Rogue Talents aren't bad at all, they just aren't as ideally suited for optimizing as some might wish.
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Even with that feat, you will get what, 4+3 x 3, so maybe 21 rounds? If you run a standard day with 4 encounter, you will not have that much rounds for Skill check. Maybe what, 2 or 3?Sure, but how often does Escape Artist come up, anyway? Ditto Appraise. Both way less than once a day. Sleight of Hand is a bit more common, I'll grant, but even that isn't usually more than once or twice a day, and a lot of the time, he won't need the bonus, he can just use it if he needs.
The exercise was to set out a skill set at which the Rogue was better than a Bard of 10th level. Not to make the perfect skill set to use in a campaign.
Even with that feat, you will get what, 4+3 x 3, so maybe 21 rounds? If you run a standard day with 4 encounter, you will not have that much rounds for Skill check. Maybe what, 2 or 3?Sure, but how often does Escape Artist come up, anyway? Ditto Appraise. Both way less than once a day. Sleight of Hand is a bit more common, I'll grant, but even that isn't usually more than once or twice a day, and a lot of the time, he won't need the bonus, he can just use it if he needs.
Not that often, true. But, you don't have 21 rounds: you have 7 times 3 rounds. So, one Escape Artist check is 1/7 of you luck of the day. It goes down really fast, and you will want to keep some round for a ''surprise fight'', just in case. Chances are, if your life is not in danger, you will not use it. If I can see how the Luck make the Archeologist better than the Rogue in combat, I think that in Skill it's far from a good trade with Versatile Performance...
specific instances of betterness, does not actually make them better though...
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The exercise was to set out a skill set at which the Rogue was better than a Bard of 10th level. Not to make the perfect skill set to use in a campaign.Even with that feat, you will get what, 4+3 x 3, so maybe 21 rounds? If you run a standard day with 4 encounter, you will not have that much rounds for Skill check. Maybe what, 2 or 3?Sure, but how often does Escape Artist come up, anyway? Ditto Appraise. Both way less than once a day. Sleight of Hand is a bit more common, I'll grant, but even that isn't usually more than once or twice a day, and a lot of the time, he won't need the bonus, he can just use it if he needs.
Um...he was responding to my proposed Bard build which uses limited, non-spell, resources to equal your Rogue at those skills. I was just saying those resources would stretch that far.
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Not that often, true. But, you don't have 21 rounds: you have 7 times 3 rounds. So, one Escape Artist check is 1/7 of you luck of the day. It goes down really fast, and you will want to keep some round for a ''surprise fight'', just in case. Chances are, if your life is not in danger, you will not use it. If I can see how the Luck make the Archeologist better than the Rogue in combat, I think that in Skill it's far from a good trade with Versatile Performance...Even with that feat, you will get what, 4+3 x 3, so maybe 21 rounds? If you run a standard day with 4 encounter, you will not have that much rounds for Skill check. Maybe what, 2 or 3?Sure, but how often does Escape Artist come up, anyway? Ditto Appraise. Both way less than once a day. Sleight of Hand is a bit more common, I'll grant, but even that isn't usually more than once or twice a day, and a lot of the time, he won't need the bonus, he can just use it if he needs.
Oh, I agree. Versatile Performance is a better skill trick. But Archaeologists Luck is still a skill trick, which is more than Rogues have.
If a bard doesn't take perform, they only get 6+Int per level... ergo are worse than the 8+ int rogue. nes pa?
Uh...Bards aren't obligated to take Performances if they don't want. And even if they do, they only need three at that level. And, as I note, can afford to drop Wis for more Int.
Sure. Though they can afford higher Int by dropping Wis. But you were saying 40 ranks of Perform skills is mandatory at 10th level for a Bard, which it's not at all. Heck, more than 30 would be superfluous, and I'd thus expect 30 at most.
If a bard doesn't take perform, they only get 6+Int per level... ergo are worse than the 8+ int rogue. nes pa?
Uh...Bards aren't obligated to take Performances if they don't want. And even if they do, they only need three at that level. And, as I note, can afford to drop Wis for more Int.
A bard who takes Pageant of the Peacock is going to have room for all those skills and more. And be better at them (have you seen Aram Zey's Focus/Glibness/Invisibility?) The Bard doesn't even need to invest in INT to absolutely crush the Rogue. Bluff is all you need to be an Professor of Undead Studies, a world renown blacksmith, or a master appraiser.
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specific instances of betterness, does not actually make them better though...Exactly why I state that the more flexible Rogue class is better than the more specific Bard class. My opinion exactly. Which is why I am firmly in the "they are fine the way they are" camp.
The Investigator is better than the rogue at all the skills, not just some of them. And combat to boot.
specific instances of betterness, does not actually make them better though...Exactly why I state that the more flexible Rogue class is better than the more specific Bard class. My opinion exactly. Which is why I am firmly in the "they are fine the way they are" camp.
How does a specific instance make them "more flexible" then a bard when in every other circumstance they are "less flexible" then the Bard. Genuinely curious what your logic is here.
specific instances of betterness, does not actually make them better though...Exactly why I state that the more flexible Rogue class is better than the more specific Bard class. My opinion exactly. Which is why I am firmly in the "they are fine the way they are" camp.
except all the generally useful skills are covered by bards... having more skill points in general is a poor way to line up who's a better skill monkey... :/
looking at most knowledge DCs for instance a Bard could easily ignore all of them and still maintain some good competence.
I'm just not seeing the +2 pulling the rogue ahead of the bard when it has so much more.
Rogues don't need to be changed...TRAPS do.Changing traps, while not a bad idea at all, doesn't fix Rogues. Too many other people get Trapfinding or equivalent abilities.
Archaeologists even get a better version of it since it adds to all perceptions checks...
Archaeologists even get a better version of it since it adds to all perceptions checks...Rogues don't need to be changed...TRAPS do.Changing traps, while not a bad idea at all, doesn't fix Rogues. Too many other people get Trapfinding or equivalent abilities.
traps are literally no longer the Rogues strong suit, they're just the classic one.
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Honest question: whats' BF, IBF and GBF?Yep. As was your argument saying "I can just substitute everything a Rogue does with magic." Can the rogue find the invisible person... well, the +10 Perception helps (only have to roll a 20... and WOW, take 10 thanks).That's not how Perception works. It would be *at least* DC 40, assuming my Bard wasn't using Stealth (even untrained, because why not).Now I have the square I just need Shadow Strike,I'm assuming you mistyped something and meant Blind-Fight, because a)you're looking at a 50% miss chance here and b)Shadow Strike doesn't help against someone with total concealment BF, IBF, GBF
and a flanking friend to hit you with sneak attack damage.Can my Bard also get a partner?
I mean we could create entire builds to "defeat" each other here... but that is kind of a huge waste of time.In combat? Yeah, you started it. In skills? It's not looking good for the Rogue, is it?
To locate a square of a person is only a perception 20, once you know they exist. Before that, yes, it would take a perception a bit higher (or a major magic rogue talent allowing to detect magic) BF is Blind fight, improve, greater... as you pointed out, I would need all these to deal precision damage (with Shadow Strike).
that and anyone can be the trapmonkey with the trap finder trait (an entire aspect of a core class rolled into one little trait--which is a SLAP IN THE FACE)
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I have fixed this in my home-rule games...ALL traps are at +20 DC to detect for anyone who doesn't have Trapfinding, and my traps come in two flavours: Save or die, or save vs. Ability Drain (of some sort...you aren't quite so Strong when that arm has just been severed, are you?)
That doesn't fix Rogues. It just makes them a NecessaryWeasel since you've both made traps nearly impossible to detect for any other class AND made them as deadly as very high level spells.
That's like removing Cure spells from the spell list of every other class besides Cleric, removing Infernal Healing, and having no Cure wands available. "Tada! The Cleric is buffed!"
LOL! Love the guy taking Appraise and Heal just to avoid the skills covered by Versatile Performance and then claiming Rogues are better at skills.
I'd much, much rather have ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate than any of those 2! Appraise and heal are possibly the least useful skills in the game.
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except all the generally useful skills are covered by bards... having more skill points in general is a poor way to line up who's a better skill monkey... :/
And then the Mythic Rogue and the Mythic Bard each take "This Might Just Work" and stop arguing about who is the better skill monkey. Each using their highest ability, with their highest bonuses, and all making the DC40 roll with ease...
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LOL! Love the guy taking Appraise and Heal just to avoid the skills covered by Versatile Performance and then claiming Rogues are better at skills.
I'd much, much rather have ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate than any of those 2! Appraise and heal are possibly the least useful skills in the game.
Again, that was just an exercise in pointing out a skill set in which a Bard would be inferior to the Rogue. It was an exercise, not a useful build. Also, said same Rogue could take Bluff and Intimidate instead, spending 20 skill points, while the Bard took Comedy and spent 10. Net effect, Rogue gets 80 "useful" skill Ranks, Bard gets 70... You sound like you would much rather be a Bard, personable talker who uses his comic wit to get out of a situation... that is fine.
Again, that was just an exercise in pointing out a skill set in which a Bard would be inferior to the Rogue. It was an exercise, not a useful build. Also, said same Rogue could take Bluff and Intimidate instead, spending 20 skill points, while the Bard took Comedy and spent 10. Net effect, Rogue gets 80 "useful" skill Ranks, Bard gets 70... You sound like you would much rather be a Bard, personable talker who uses his comic wit to get out of a situation... that is fine.LOL! Love the guy taking Appraise and Heal just to avoid the skills covered by Versatile Performance and then claiming Rogues are better at skills.
I'd much, much rather have ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate than any of those 2! Appraise and heal are possibly the least useful skills in the game.
And then, a few levels later, the Bard gets another Versatile Performance and gets Sense Motive and Diplomacy as well... Now he has just as many skill points as a Rogue, but his Sense Motive is based on Cha, which makes him better at that skill. A few levels later, he gets Acrobatics and Fly, or Handle Animal or whatever... And he then has more skill points than the Rogue. He also has spells and stuff like Bardic Knowledge to make himself far, far superior to Rogues on the "skill monkey" role.
And in combat, Rogues bring nothing but Sneak Attack... Meanwhile, The Bard is buffing the whole party, himself included.