I'm trying to build a charge machine. My party sucks, so just having crazy offense is basically what we need and I like melee. I'm trying to decide between having two claws (beast totem) and a bite (toothy) or having a big hammer. The natural attacks just seem so OP though, which makes me feel like it'd be dumb not to go that route. Is there any way I can get a two hander to do more damage than the claw,claw, bite? This is assuming I get strength, BAB and power attack on each of those natural attacks (they're all primary). If I'm wrong about that, I'd be happy to be corrected.
The 2-hander already has a higher damage potential (gets a better STR mod and Power Attack than the naturals because they're all light weapons), though the natural attacks do damage more consistently what with the "all at full BAB" thing.
I'm assuming you're talking from a Greater Beast Totem perspective here? If you don't have it yet then the hammer will do more damage on a charge. It's a much bigger hit than one bite. If you do, then the prior paragraph applies.
The hammer is all around better. Especially when you factor in that you can use the Bite with it.
Claws will do less damage a hit, at a higher attack bonus. But they will be doing a LOT less damage per hit, require money to enhance, and have a hard time getting through DR.
Meanwhile you get a +4 Furious hammer and laugh at Epic DR.
Forgot about the claws being light. That means they only get half power attack. I was assuming that on a pounce, I'd get full strength, full BAB and power attack for each natural attack. Which would be 78 if I hit each attack (10 BAB and 10 strength mod) where the hammer would be 63. But with half power attack ( I think primary natural attacks get full strength even though they're light) you'd only be getting 69. That's still more than the hammer though, and our DM is stingy with loot and gold for a better hammer. Plus, at level 10 it'd be feasible to pick up multiattack and body check people with a spiked breast plate on top of tearing them up with the teeth and claws. Any more ideas?
ALso, unless you have pounce, you can only make one attack on a charge, so natural weapons get better only once you are next to them. Also, it gets a lot harder to make your natural attacks magical plus special materials is even harder to add to bypass DR.
Ah, but since this is for a barbarian, it can be easier than you'd think. If a +1 furious Amulet of Mighty Fists is used, then wouldn't it count as a +3 weapon when raging? That is enough to get through cold iron/silver.
Forgot about the claws being light. That means they only get half power attack. I was assuming that on a pounce, I'd get full strength, full BAB and power attack for each natural attack. Which would be 78 if I hit each attack (10 BAB and 10 strength mod) where the hammer would be 63. But with half power attack ( I think primary natural attacks get full strength even though they're light) you'd only be getting 69. That's still more than the hammer though, and our DM is stingy with loot and gold for a better hammer. Plus, at level 10 it'd be feasible to pick up multiattack and body check people with a spiked breast plate on top of tearing them up with the teeth and claws. Any more ideas?
Um...Light weapons and primary natural attacks get full power attack under normal circumstances.
It is only when they are used in offhand attacks or if they are secondary natural attacks do they get the reduced PA. Of course, any attempt to mix natural attacks and manufactured weapons makes all natural attacks secondary.
Anyway, prior to level 10, 3 natural attacks generally has higher POTENTIAL damage than a 2handed manufactured weapon, since you get all 3 by second level, and later they are more likely to hit than a 2nd iterative. Of course, that is only when you can get off a full attack (2handers always have the advantage with 1 big hits, which allows more movement). After level 10 though, things get a bit more evened out in full attacks as a 3rd iterative appears (although it is very unreliable) and the 2nd iterative becomes more reliable. Of course, by that point, as a barbarian, your pounce will have kicked in so the mobility issue will have almost completely disappeared.
Of course, if you acquire any items that provide more natural attacks, things swing a bit more heavily towards natural attacks on a pounce build. Generally, you are doing fine as long as your number of natural attacks exceeds your number of iteratives.
Also, I can get boar style and rending claws with the claws, which hikes the damage up even more. Plus, my last barbarian had a clawed gauntlet similar to the ones on the fiend prince armor (but with less damage dice) that didn't cost very much to have forged, so I could just do that again to get my claw damage up. I might just go two handed fighter with vital strike, charge through, spiked destroyer and improved over run and play the hammer just because I think it's cool.
Yeah, you're right about power attack, lemeres. Seems like the natural attacks are all around better, which seems a bit ridiculous considering it's being put up against a war hammer. Still undecided. Hammers are cool, but it'd be hilarious to slice up all the weak enemies my DM is having to make for my horribly unoptimized party with the natural attack machine.
The only time Natural Attacks match/exceed a 2H weapon are if you have 2 more Natural Attacks than you do iteratives.
So at level 1, sure, 2 claws and a bite is better than a single hammer. But by level 6, it begins falling behind, and by level 10 they've been left in the dust.
Now, if you're a Ragebred Skinwalker, you can get 2 claws, a bite, a Gore, and 2 Hooves and you're in business.
@Rynjin How though? At level 10 I've got 78 on a natural attack pounce with a +20 to hit on each of those, where I'd have a 63 with the hammer. Plus, the hammer is only doing 2 d6 where the claws and bite are doing 1 d8, 1d8, 1d4. I don't think my DM has figured out DR yet either. The only smart defensive thing he's done is use golems to keep all his dudes from getting fried by our only good air sorcerer. I've actually thought about rage bred, but it doesn't get any bonuses on strength which kind of messes me up. Plus, half orcs have some pretty cool feats.
If anyone's confused as to how I'm just tossing a high level character into a campaign, our party is being led by a lawful evil sorcerer and my old chaotic evil barbarian got tired of him and rode off into the sunset with some half orc mercenaries. We're in a war right now, so I can be whatever I want because I can just say I'm a mercenary fighting for our country of choice.
Like I said, the gap closes as your attacks and BaB go up. You're at level 10 now. So you've probably got about 28 Str Raging, and the -3/+6 Power Attack.
Your weapon will have a higher enhancement bonus by at least +1, because it's half the price of an AoMF. So we'll say a +3 Furious (+5) Hammer vs a +2 Furious (+4) AoMF.
So, you have 2 claws and a bite, each at +20 to-hit. You're dealing a total of 2d8+1d4+57 , for an average of 68 damage (3 attacks, +9 damage from Str, +4 damage from AoMF, +6 damage from Power Attack for a total of +19 a hit, 4.5x2 average on claws, 2.5 damage average on bite).
Meanwhile, your hammer guy is hitting at +21/+16, for 4d6+46, an average of 70 damage (+9 damage from Str, +5 damage from Hammer, +9 damage from Power Attack, for a total of 23 damage a hit, with a 7 damage average on die).
At this level, they are roughly equal, but I'd give the edge to the Natural Attack build because of a solidly higher to-hit.
However, next level a few things change.
1.) You get Greater Rage.
2.) You get another Iterative.
So, to-hit ratios don't change (+1 to each, add a third attack for hammer man at +12).
You're now doing 2d8+1d4+60, for a total average of 71 damage if all your attacks hit.
Meanwhile, hammer guy.
He's now doing 6d6+87 (+29 per hit), average of 108 damage if all attacks hit. Even given that only TWO attacks hit, he's doing 4d6+58 (average 72 damage). A negligible difference given your to-hit discrepancy, but he now has a MUCH higher potential damage than you.
Now look at level 12. What changes at level 12? Power Attack gets an extra 2 damage (for you) and 3 damage (for him). The gap grows wider, by 1 damage a swing.
Plug it into a DPR calculation, it should give you a similar outcome. The Claw/Claw/Bite build is competitive through 10th, but falls behind DRASTICALLY at 11th.
This isn't even factoring in that the hammer wielding Barbarian can ALSO grab a Bite, adding an extra 1d4+29 at +17 to-hit, actually having more TOTAL ATTACKS than you as well as an ENORMOUS damage difference.
Thanks! That was super helpful. As far as I know though, 57 is too low. I'd have a 10 modifier, 10 BAB and 6 on power attack. That's 78 if all three hit. If that's wrong, I'm open for correction. So my natural weapon pouncing barbarian would be hitting something like 89, a little more than that even if I went multi attack with spiked armor, although then the attacks are getting a little too unreliable. I could also potentially get boar style and rending claws, although that's pushing it feat wise for a barbarian.The furious hammer definitely helps out hammer guy though. I appreciate you letting me know about that. The visual of cracking heads with the big maul is so awesome, and it's such a classic barbarian move that it's really hard to pass up. At first I was just worried I'd get left behind on damage. Thanks again!
Also, to those throwing in ideas for improving the natural attack build, I'm actually WANTING to use the hammer, haha! It's just that I'm looking for max damage since I'm our party's bruiser. We need it pretty bad. With my old character, we ran into a hanging tree (the monster) and I just straight up ran away because I knew we'd all die. Our sorcerer wound up killing it single handedly (he can magic missile pretty much any one thing to death if it doesn't have magic resistance) while everybody else got beaten within an inch of their lives (the DM is nice to the unoptimized characters and doesn't kill them).
Thanks! That was super helpful. As far as I know though, 57 is too low. I'd have a 10 modifier, 10 BAB and 6 on power attack. That's 78 if all three hit. If that's wrong, I'm open for correction. So my natural weapon pouncing barbarian would be hitting something like 89, a little more than that even if I went multi attack with spiked armor, although then the attacks are getting a little too unreliable. I could also potentially get boar style and rending claws, although that's pushing it feat wise for a barbarian.The furious hammer definitely helps out hammer guy though. I appreciate you letting me know about that. The visual of cracking heads with the big maul is so awesome, and it's such a classic barbarian move that it's really hard to pass up. At first I was just worried I'd get left behind on damage. Thanks again!
You don't add your BaB to damage, though, so I'm not sure why you're listing your BaB there as a factor in damage.
A +10 modifier gets you +3 up from my calculations, for a +60 total instead of 57. Not 78. You're going to have to list out all your factors if I'm gonna understand your numbers, but regardless the same numbers will be applied in greater numbers to the hammer in any case.
No matter if you go with natural attacks or not. You want the beast totem feats to get Pounce at level 10. Try both things out in game. If a battle present Some AoOs the great weapon is best and if some one cast haste or you have to move a lot. But bite/claw/claw is not bad.
The real question is not whether claw/claw/bite is better than a single weapon attack, but whether hammer/hammer/hammer/bite(at level 11) is better. Because you can still use all your non-hand related natural attacks with your weapon.
Also, Stud Train please use the following for your calculations:
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
And please include your calculaiton of damage as well.
Chance to hit is expressed as the target AC (average AC of monsters equal to your level) - your to-hit. You then divide that value by 20. And subtract it from 1.
Example:
You have a total to hit bonus of +20. Target AC for your level is 24.
24-20 = 4. 4/20 = 0.2. 1- 0.2 = 0.8. You have an 80% chance to hit.
To calculate your total DPR for the round, calculate the damage for each individual attack you can make and then add them all together. Don't forget that natural attacks become secondary attacks (-5 to hit) when combined with manufactured weapons.
You can also split the difference by building for both. Just because the claws are there doesn't mean you have to use them. Holding a bludgeoning or reach weapon while having the claws as backup and the bite either way lets you see the advantages of two different styles with minimal investment.
Well he'll HAVE both either way (Beast Totem is a no brainer). But you have to really build for one or the other, simply because of cash investment (affording a weapon and an AoMF at an equal or even somewhat lesser enhancement is scary expensive).
Rynjin, of course he is going to have to make a choice between the weapon and the amulet, but not until around level 4. I am assuming a character played up from level 1, so I am assuming roughly 30 or 40 fights before the choice has to be made. If you are creating this character at level 4 or above, you have to make that choice at character creation and my suggestion will not be helpful.
OH! Gosh. Well, every DM I've had has had us roll damage wrong then, because we've always added it in. I just looked at the rules and saw that you're right though. Alright. I'll bring that up the next time we play. In that case the weapon really does outpace the claws. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Looks like I'm going hammer.
As far as listing my calculations go, I was thinking I got to add BAB because that's how we've always played it. So 10 strength, 10 BAB, 6 power attack times three. That'd be 78. That's wrong though, as you pointed out.
I think adding BAB to damage was just a house rule with our first DM because he was weird. Our second DM was friends with him so he played everything exactly the same. It probably just got carried over because our current DM is very new and might not know to correct us (he's PLAYED a few campaigns, but never as a melee character).