Hi.
I´m making a witch for PFS for the first time. Its also my first time playing a magic using character. Here she is:
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Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 20 (Human Bonus)
Wis 10
Cha 7
Trait 1: Tomb Raider: You gain a +1 bonus on Perception and Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, and one of these skills your choice) becomes a class skill for you
Trait 2: Child of the Temple: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (nobility) and Knowledge (religion) checks, and one of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Feat 1: Extra Hex: Cackle
Human Feat: Extra Hex: Evil eye
Hex 1: Slumber
Familiar: Greensting scorpion (+4 initiative to master)
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I´ve read the optimization guides out there for a debuffing build, which is what I want, but I´d like to know if there is something you would recommend not doing or changing specially in theses areas:
1) I've chosen mainly Enchantment school spells to benefit as much as possible form Spell focus feat in the future.
2) The familiar is my main concern. I chose it for the initiative and I DON'T WANT TO LOOSE IT, so I plan on keeping it on myself ALWAYS and maybe "ready an action" to sting if I get grappled. Is this silly? Should I have a more active familiar? What use would an alternative like the Compsognathus be of?
3) The patron is compatible with debuffing and Enchantment, again.
With evil eye and slumber being mind affecting, I'd strongly suggest less of a focus on enchantment. I've played my pfs witch to 6 and I've found that if the enemy can be hexed, I use that. If they can't, then my spell list is my go to answer. I use web and glitterdust along with spell focus conjuration. I'd suggest a different patron for much the same reason. Blasting isn't particularly strong, so I went with time for some good buffs and some rp reasons. I just don't like focusing on enchantment when you are using evil eye and slumber because if those hexes work, you're going to use them because you aren't burning a spell slot to do it; at least that's what I've found.
I have a witch for PFS. I like the Evil Eye/Misfortune combo.
Misfortune is a wicked powerfull spell. Even agains relatively weak creatures, because you can use it on everything. Its not mind affecting, so it also works on Undead and such.
Evil eye can be very powerfull. Especially against foes that last a couple of rounds, as you can keep using it on the same target and reduce everything by -2.
I also have the scorpion familiar. I never have him do anything, except for fun roleplaying things (he comes skittering out of my sleeve or my hair). I dont miss having a combat familiar. They dont scale like an animal companion does, so at higher levels they become fairly useless.
Having your familiar in your sleeve is perfectly fine.
I see, I'll switch Slumber for Misfortune. I can keep Misfortune going with cackle while the target is alive whereas Slumber, whith a potential coupe, is a one round only hex.
I'll also keep my scorpion. Loosing it is like loosing your spellbook. A mage does'nt have his spellbook in danger of explosions, rivers, cliffs, etc.
Misfortune increases the chance enemies will fail against Slumber.
Right, but they have to fail a save to get Misfortune to work. Why not just drop Slumber right away and not waste two rounds?
Evil Eye always works at least once and you can extend it so you've got the bonus for Slumber.
Yes, but if you use Slumber after Evil eye + Misfortune, the target is going to be saving against slumber with the lowest of 2d20 -2. Slumber is a one chance hex, so I would cast it only once it has the best odds of sticking.
Granted, its one turn later, but by the sencond round (if evil eye and misforune stuck) the target is vulnerable TO ALL PARTY MEMBERS because "Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result" and has -2 on top of that.
Does Cackle extend Evil eye even if the target saved against it?
Misfortune increases the chance enemies will fail against Slumber.
Right, but they have to fail a save to get Misfortune to work. Why not just drop Slumber right away and not waste two rounds?
Evil Eye always works at least once and you can extend it so you've got the bonus for Slumber.
Second level may be better for Evil Eye.
Starting out without a way to effect creatures immune to mind-effecting effects might not be the best idea.
I have had my share of Undead, Vermin, and Construct come at me at first level in PFS.
Ok, I could memorize Level 1 spells like Ear Piercing Scream and Burning hands. I only have three slots and there is'nt much more damage dealing spells at first level, righ?
Misfortune increases the chance enemies will fail against Slumber.
Right, but they have to fail a save to get Misfortune to work. Why not just drop Slumber right away and not waste two rounds?
Evil Eye always works at least once and you can extend it so you've got the bonus for Slumber.
Yes, but if you use Slumber after Evil eye + Misfortune, the target is going to be saving against slumber with the lowest of 2d20 -2. Slumber is a one chance hex, so I would cast it only once it has the best odds of sticking.
Granted, its one turn later, but by the sencond round (if evil eye and misforune stuck) the target is vulnerable TO ALL PARTY MEMBERS because "Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result" and has -2 on top of that.
Does Cackle extend Evil eye even if the target saved against it?
Which also means you have to use Cackle to be able to apply Misfortune to your Slumber Hex.
As for Evil Eye->Misfortune->Slumber.
Sure, if you get Misfortune & Evil Eye on the creature, it's got a real good chance of failing the save. OTOH, to get Misfortune to apply, it already has to have failed the same save. So, in any case where you get the Misfortune effect to the Slumber Save, you could have just put the creature sleep one round earlier.
Misfortune is nice for other reasons. It's pretty crippling on its own and works on things your other hexes don't. It's just that it doesn't really make sense to apply it to get someone to fail a Slumber save.
As for spells, I'd look into area effect, crowd control type things, as well as non-mind-affecting spells. Hexes are almost all single target and it's nice to be able to do more.
A low charisma does not mean your character is ugly or antisocial. It does mean you can expect character interactions to not go well.
Any advice from anyone?
That is true, but few GMs will really check my Cha just for interacting. I think they'll skip that because the -2 will be accounted for anytime I have to roll any Charisma related skill.
In any case, I'm a witch, I expect to be shunned :(
On my 7 cha witch, I took trait clever word play diplomacy, no more social problems
Another nod to misfortune early, I didn't take it early, and boy all the undead/vermin were frustrating.
For spells, no real need to duplicate what a hex can do, so pick up area controls, or things that hit other saves. Ear piercing scream was a good choice - anti-caster on fort. Web, glitterdust, good area controls.
I don't find much point in ill omen at low lvls, unless you are coordinating with another save or die caster. The one roll will get used before it gets back to you. Higher, or on an imp familiar/wand...much more interesting.
Insanity is not a good patron. Mostly mind affecting(so you could use hexes instead) and you already get access to good spells from it. It really sucks that so many patrons give spells on your spell list already. That's really useless for a prepared/'familiar as spell book caster', who can just pay or trade for spells. If it's PFS, you just pay copy from spellbook prices, really cheap.
A). We never take slumber at first level in PFS, it's your 2nd level hex. Remember, slumber isn't affected by Cackle so it's rarely going to last long enough to take a target out of the fight.
In PFS you rarely know if you'll be playing with someone who can take advantage of the free CDG check you get so it's better for your first 2 hexes to be a passive party bonus.
B). Evil Eye and Misfortune are usually the best first level hexes for a debuff/party friendly witch to grab. Evil Eye is strictly better at first level since it's guaranteed to work on everything not immune to mind affecting. It's also the preferred since the Witch hasn't had a chance to get the optimization to get the DC's for their hexes up yet.
C). Witches are not Damage dealers normally, and unless that is going to be the focus of the character bothering to prep direct damage spells is a waste of a spell slot. A witch ruins a targets ability to act setting them up for the rest of the party to kill them with ease. The should rarely concern themselves with delivering that blow. Keep a crossbow around if you feel the need to do damage but other then that ignore anything HP related.
D). Finally, most important recommendation we can give is to pick your patron based on covering the weaknesses of your hex build. As a debuffer you are going to be chock full of mind affecting powers, your patron should give you something else. It should also give you access to spells that you normally don't get but really want (like mirror image, shadow conjuration, haste or something to deal with undead.
For PFS I alwayas recommend Time->Shadow->Ancestors->Healing. This shores up the biggest weaknesses an average PFS team usually has and ALWAYS gives the witch something to do every round no matter what the challenge is.
I understand, but isn't it also a good idea to someday take Spell focus on one school of magic? In that case, shouldn't I try to keep my spells from as few schools as possible?
More so, I was considering using Evil eye and Misfortune as a baseline on a target, on top of those I would cast other, more potent effects from the enchantment school to completely shutdown the target. e.g. E eye + Misfortune + Command (fall), and later on something more powerful than Command.
Also, now that you recomend NOT learning damage dealing spells I realy feel I could stick to a couple of schools (enchantment and maybe evocation).
If possible, I'd like for this character to avoid picking up healing or buffing spells. There's always a cleric around in PFS.
To the OP. Don't know if your build is locked in already (free rebuild when you hit level 2). But here is what I used and ran into with my witch in Society Play. FYI, also human.
He's taking a rest from play but this is the build path I took:
Woo PFS Human Witch7:
st10dx12cn14in19(22)ws10ch10
L1: Accursed Hex-Cackle
H1: Extra Hex(Misfortune)
L2: Slumber Hex
L3: Extra Hex(Flight)
L4: Fortune Hex
L5: Quicken Spell
L6: Healing Hex
L7: Extra Hex Scar Hex
In hindsight, probably could have dropped the int a bit. I did not dump at any stats as a personal preference.
Double traited Ill Omen to enable quickened Ill Omen at 5th level. Rarely used it.
In play: at the start, I found slapping a 'roll every d20 twice and take the worst' to be pretty handy. If it didn't stick, Accursed Hex let me try again next round.
Took a basic familiar (lizard) and kept him under his backpack for the passive benefits. Never used in combat. Too expensive to replace and from a roleplay standpoint, he thought it was a bit heartless to send a familiar into the jaws of death.
I didn't use Evil Eye for two reasons. While EE is a good debuff spell with that same single action I'd rather give the target a roll d20 twice or a knockout blow instead via Slumber. Second, EE is mind-effecting, and you run into mind-effecting immune foes frequently (so no Slumber either.)
Spell-wise, Silent Image was used a great deal. Mainly for the illusions of walls (total cover) that his party could use to attack from. And the Sleep spell. At level 1, sleep spell (though it is a full round) is a decent alternative to Slumber.
He ran into several adventures where he faced: undead, plants, constructs, vermin. Basically everything that was immune to evil eye.
At level 2, Slumber. Slumber plus Misfortune seemed to be good go-to hexes. Misfortune is NOT mind-effecting so by level 2 my witch has 2 debuff options:
1) KO via Slumber.
2) If immune to Slumber roll d20 twice debuff with Misfortune.
At level 3, the Flight Hex grants levitate, so it seemed a good time to fit it in.
At level 4, out of a desire to buff party members, he went with Fortune. Unlike Misfortune, it only affects a single d20 roll. But with Cackle to sustain and using his standard to drop a guidance cantrip, most party members liked rolling twice with a +1 on their primary attack (especiallythe misfire prone gunslinger. Optionally you could drop another Fortune on the next round and sustain both...
At level 5, Quickened Ill Omen + Slumber was his go-to combo for heavy-hitters. But frankly by this time Slumber was getting boring so he actually started switching to more evocation or buffing/backup healing instead. On a side note he now flies as an Su. Which saved the party's bacon when we were fighting 2 shadow demons at night.
Anyway focusing on secondary roles lead to selecting the healing hex at level 6. Good way in PFS to reduce resource consumption. Basically a free CMW per PC per day. Or if surrounded in combat, a good way to cast healing without worrying about getting interrupted. (Su=no concentration and no provoking.)
By level 7 my witch found situations where PCs would run everywhere (a.k.a. out of his buff range) so he went with Scar Hex. Now for a simple smiley-face or hello kitty witch's mark he can heal or buff hex any in the party as long as they are within a mile.
I have not played him for quite some time so he is stuck at 7th.
I understand, but isn't it also a good idea to someday take Spell focus on one school of magic? In that case, shouldn't I try to keep my spells from as few schools as possible?
More so, I was considering using Evil eye and Misfortune as a baseline on a target, on top of those I would cast other, more potent effects from the enchantment school to completely shutdown the target. e.g. E eye + Misfortune + Command (fall), and later on something more powerful than Command.
Also, now that you recomend NOT learning damage dealing spells I realy feel I could stick to a couple of schools (enchantment and maybe evocation).
If possible, I'd like for this character to avoid picking up healing or buffing spells. There's always a cleric around in PFS.
Anyway it's realy hell building spellcasters.
Spell focus is great if you want to focus on that school of magic. Witches however (especially in PFS) rarely wind up actually casting spells. Hexes tend to be the go to action every round with the actual spellcasting happening outside of combat. Every Hex in your arsenal tends to be 2-3 times as powerful as your highest level spell and in comparison you'll never want to waste your limited turn in combat doing something sub-optimal. Your example above is spot-on instance of these. Would you rather burn 2-3 rounds to make a target prone or to make him unconscious instead?
If you don't want to pick up the buffing or healing spells that pretty much leaves you with the summoning & conjuration schools to focus on (Necromancy is already a witch favorite). I'd recommend Shadow then so you can use the Shadow Conjuration spell to REALLY up your spellcasting options for mid-game play.
B). Evil Eye and Misfortune are usually the best first level hexes for a debuff/party friendly witch to grab. Evil Eye is strictly better at first level since it's guaranteed to work on everything not immune to mind affecting. It's also the preferred since the Witch hasn't had a chance to get the optimization to get the DC's for their hexes up yet.
C). Witches are not Damage dealers normally, and unless that is going to be the focus of the character bothering to prep direct damage spells is a waste of a spell slot. A witch ruins a targets ability to act setting them up for the rest of the party to kill them with ease. The should rarely concern themselves with delivering that blow. Keep a crossbow around if you feel the need to do damage but other then that ignore anything HP related.
b) Evil Eye and Misfortune? No Cackle?
Keeping whatever you do from being 1 round only seems more important to me.
c) It's nice to be able to do something other then debuff, especially at low levels when even a little damage can go a long way and you don't have access to what you really want: area effect battlefield control. My witch wasn't in PFS, but I got some good use out of the Scream.
B). Evil Eye and Misfortune are usually the best first level hexes for a debuff/party friendly witch to grab. Evil Eye is strictly better at first level since it's guaranteed to work on everything not immune to mind affecting. It's also the preferred since the Witch hasn't had a chance to get the optimization to get the DC's for their hexes up yet.
C). Witches are not Damage dealers normally, and unless that is going to be the focus of the character bothering to prep direct damage spells is a waste of a spell slot. A witch ruins a targets ability to act setting them up for the rest of the party to kill them with ease. The should rarely concern themselves with delivering that blow. Keep a crossbow around if you feel the need to do damage but other then that ignore anything HP related.
b) Evil Eye and Misfortune? No Cackle?
Keeping whatever you do from being 1 round only seems more important to me.
c) It's nice to be able to do something other then debuff, especially at low levels when even a little damage can go a long way and you don't have access to what you really want: area effect battlefield control. My witch wasn't in PFS, but I got some good use out of the Scream.
While nice Cackle is not usually needed at 1st level for PFS and is usually a wasted choice. The average target dies in 1 round or less in Organized play.
Based on my previous experiences with PFS, I can agree that at 1st lvl, the average target dies pretty soon, so I'll leave Cackle for lvl 2 and take Accursed hex, Slumber and Misfortune at 1st lvl.
Also, I understand hexes are a lot more potent than spells and that I'll be using those most of the time, making the Spell focus feat a bad investment. This leaves me open, again, to all schools of magic :). Spells are for filling the gaps, right?
I'll take the Shadow patron too, its without witch spells and that's nice.
Keeping whatever you do from being 1 round only seems more important to me.
If the target does not make its save VS evil eye, it will last several rounds. The more INT you have, the longer, so it will be an average of 5 to 7 rounds at first level. No need to waste cackle on that.
Somebody has to be the lone voice in the wilderness. Guess it will be me.
The following isn't meant to accuse sleep hex users of badwrongfun. Just pointing out that you might want to at least consider alternatives that are less powerful.
Sleep is very powerful. Too powerful for PFS. It is just very boring as you shut down many (probably most) encounters as soon as your initiative cones up. Boring to the other players and quite possibly also boring to you.
I built a witch with sleep, intending to use it only in emergencies. But the temptation to use it was too high. The instant things looked dangerous it came out. Boring. I paid the cost to retrain it.
Evil Eye, misfortune etc are fine. They contribute to the groups success without just shutting down the encounter. And they take time so others actually get to do things.
And hexes like Prehensile Hair are just FUN. Its amusing when your slight witch opens the stuck door the barbarian couldn't. It (and many others) are effective enough to be worth taking.
Somebody has to be the lone voice in the wilderness. Guess it will be me.
The following isn't meant to accuse sleep hex users of badwrongfun. Just pointing out that you might want to at least consider alternatives that are less powerful.
Sleep is very powerful. Too powerful for PFS. It is just very boring as you shut down many (probably most) encounters as soon as your initiative cones up. Boring to the other players and quite possibly also boring to you.
Uh...vs. more than one opponent, Slumber doesn't end encounters, just cost someone an action to wake the sleeper up.
And one-enemy encounters have a tendency to be swingy as hell anyway.
Never shut down an encounter though I have prevented several PC deaths in Society Play.
I find putting a minion to sleep more humane than power attacking MDK. Most of my PFS characters are not big on killing (a lot of my melees take bludgeoner for example) so I look at ways to disable them without re-enacting a scene from a Tarantino film.
The effect did not work often on bosses. Bosses have been either outright immune or some kind of a caster/creature with very high will saves (especially when they are 3-5 levels above you) so my witch usually ended up in a buffing role. Or my witch ended up blasting because blasting is fun :) I think Slumber actually worked on a single boss, and that was after about 8 rounds of combat.
Somebody has to be the lone voice in the wilderness. Guess it will be me.
The following isn't meant to accuse sleep hex users of badwrongfun. Just pointing out that you might want to at least consider alternatives that are less powerful.
Sleep is very powerful. Too powerful for PFS. It is just very boring as you shut down many (probably most) encounters as soon as your initiative cones up. Boring to the other players and quite possibly also boring to you.
I built a witch with sleep, intending to use it only in emergencies. But the temptation to use it was too high. The instant things looked dangerous it came out. Boring. I paid the cost to retrain it.
Evil Eye, misfortune etc are fine. They contribute to the groups success without just shutting down the encounter. And they take time so others actually get to do things.
And hexes like Prehensile Hair are just FUN. Its amusing when your slight witch opens the stuck door the barbarian couldn't. It (and many others) are effective enough to be worth taking.
No.
This is really unnecessary.
This is bordering on shaming a new player, for their build.
