| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think some of it has to do with actual day to day spell use in real games. I have a 7th level Wizard who has spent the better part of a year crafting magic items for the party. This basically doubles WBL for everyone. So, even without all the AC items from double WBL he still uses a bunch of spell slots every day to make sure he never gets into a fight without buffs and spells available. Mage Armor for myself and the monk 6 times, Floating Disk 2 times, Unseen Servant 2 times, False Life 3 times, Rope Trick and Alarm every day. I have 6 1st level pearls of power and a lesser metamagic rod of extend. So camping happens in a Rope Trick with an Alarm on it and characters keeping watch. For all of when we are up and about I have Mage Armor and False Life and my buddy the monk has Mage Armor. For 14 hours/day I have Floating Disk and Unseen Servant up. I think this is what caster players are getting at. Much of what I do best as a caster is make the martials even scarier. I also try to minimize surprises, so any scenario where my mid level caster has to show up at high noon with no spells cast is going to be regarded as a trap at best and insane more likely.
Problem is that many of these threads are roiling pots of hostility seasoned with disdain and a bit of impatience and an awful lot of arrogance. Or, in other words, like most of the Internet. It makes reading the threads a real pain. There have been threads where it'd be easier to mark the ones not breaking board rules or otherwise being impolite. On all sides.
|
Seems like, as long as I have played (since the 1970's) this sort of game, a low level mage is nothing, a mid level mage is ok, and a high level mage is a killing machine. A fighter is a killing machine from day one and, like clockwork, can do what they do reliably over and over and over again. A mage, on the other hand, can do it once a day. SURE they clear the entire bar of deadbeats. But then the fighter has to fend off the city guard for them... because even a low level guard can whap them on the head ten minutes later when their buffs have worn off. This is why spellcasters in towns tend to be calm and collected. They know they are eventually vulnerable. And this is why fighters are jerks all the time, they know they can kick your butt whenever they want. Classic geeks and jocks discussion, isn't it? (where the mage shines, of course, is at higher levels when they take over the fighter's limited brain and make him punch himself - just like the fighter might have done at lower levels to the mage... yeh, classic "work smarter, not harder, and it will eventually pay off" conversation)
Martial vs Caster?
This thread is popping up a lot recently. I suspect a caster from 2nd edition D&D found out the "reverse time" spell and has used it like groundhog's day.
In all seriousness, a high initiative seems of clear importance in Pathfinder. If you can injure a caster quickly, it stops any magical shenanigans with a botched concentration check from the injury. If the mage goes first, then shenanigans can occur. Martials don't really care if they are injured, so long as the hit point total stays above zero and no one needs to roll a save.
If you look at old editions of D&D, this trend was even worse. Stats gave you little bonus to damage (unless you had the mythical 18/00 strength), Warrior / martial saves were horrible no matter what the level, and feats didn't really exist yet.
The trend in old school D&D was even worse at high levels as spells did not cap at high levels (30th level wizard equals 30d6 lightning bolt, period). Some of those old time and dimension spells really could poke holes in a plot.
They may not be equal, yet there is still a definite boost to a mixed party with parts made of both martials and casters. The dynamic is still slightly different from the far more overbearing casters of 2nd edition D&D.
Classic geeks and jocks discussion, isn't it?
Does this qualify as a revenge of the nerds kind of moment?
Wait, this thread was moved from General Discussion?
OK, now I *know* the mods are trolling today. Well played, folks. Well played.
A Caster's power(Especially Arcane Casters) is almost directly proportional to the effectiveness of your party scout.
If that scout is a Rogue, chances are the only returns you'll be getting is his Life Insurance.
A Trapper Ranger, Bard, or Alchemist on the other hand...well, Knowledge is Power.
|
A Caster's power(Especially Arcane Casters) is almost directly proportional to the effectiveness of your party scout.
If that scout is a Rogue, chances are the only returns you'll be getting is his Life Insurance.
A Trapper Ranger, Bard, or Alchemist on the other hand...well, Knowledge is Power.
Please enlighten us how a rogue isn't any better at scouting than these classes you listed.
|
|
I think some of it has to do with actual day to day spell use in real games. I have a 7th level Wizard who has spent the better part of a year crafting magic items for the party. This basically doubles WBL for everyone. So, even without all the AC items from double WBL he still uses a bunch of spell slots every day to make sure he never gets into a fight without buffs and spells available. Mage Armor for myself and the monk 6 times, Floating Disk 2 times, Unseen Servant 2 times, False Life 3 times, Rope Trick and Alarm every day. I have 6 1st level pearls of power and a lesser metamagic rod of extend. So camping happens in a Rope Trick with an Alarm on it and characters keeping watch. For all of when we are up and about I have Mage Armor and False Life and my buddy the monk has Mage Armor. For 14 hours/day I have Floating Disk and Unseen Servant up. I think this is what caster players are getting at. Much of what I do best as a caster is make the martials even scarier. I also try to minimize surprises, so any scenario where my mid level caster has to show up at high noon with no spells cast is going to be regarded as a trap at best and insane more likely.
Having Mage Armour and False Life up are no big deal and are generally common spells.
Please enlighten us how a rogue isn't any better at scouting than these classes you listed.A Caster's power(Especially Arcane Casters) is almost directly proportional to the effectiveness of your party scout.
If that scout is a Rogue, chances are the only returns you'll be getting is his Life Insurance.
A Trapper Ranger, Bard, or Alchemist on the other hand...well, Knowledge is Power.
A) A Rogue only has Stealth as a class skill and has less defenses than the others.
B) The other classes have abilities that supplement their stealth and better defenses.That's the long and short of it.
|
|
Please enlighten us how a rogue isn't any better at scouting than these classes you listed.A Caster's power(Especially Arcane Casters) is almost directly proportional to the effectiveness of your party scout.
If that scout is a Rogue, chances are the only returns you'll be getting is his Life Insurance.
A Trapper Ranger, Bard, or Alchemist on the other hand...well, Knowledge is Power.
A) A Rogue only has Stealth as a class skill and has less defenses than the others.
B) The other classes have abilities that supplement their stealth and better defenses.That's the long and short of it.
The best scout is the one that doesn't get caught and a rogue can have a hell of a lot of stealth if they want.
Also, they can use UMD plus a few wands and scrolls if you really want to dish out the Stealth overkill. Most creatures out there are not going to have a high enough perception anyway so dishing out the extra stealth is generally not needed.
Please enlighten us how a rogue isn't any better at scouting than these classes you listed.A Caster's power(Especially Arcane Casters) is almost directly proportional to the effectiveness of your party scout.
If that scout is a Rogue, chances are the only returns you'll be getting is his Life Insurance.
A Trapper Ranger, Bard, or Alchemist on the other hand...well, Knowledge is Power.
A) A Rogue only has Stealth as a class skill and has less defenses than the others.
B) The other classes have abilities that supplement their stealth and better defenses.That's the long and short of it.
The best scout is the one that doesn't get caught and a rogue can have a hell of a lot of stealth if they want.
Also, they can use UMD plus a few wands and scrolls if you really want to dish out the Stealth overkill. Most creatures out there are not going to have a high enough perception anyway so dishing out the extra stealth is generally not needed.
Facepalm. Those guys have an equivalent Stealth score easily. They also have better class features that enable them to survive scouting, avoid getting caught, fight alone in case they do get caught, or disengage.
But for the hell of it, they can also use UMD on top of their already better capabilities for scouting. Because y'know UMD isn't a class feature.
A Ranger is a better scout than a Rogue for the simple reason that a Ranger is pretty darn self-sufficient in a fight.
It's never a good idea to be caught without team support in a real fight, but a Ranger has a far higher chance of getting the hell out of dodge or killing the enemy if he's only detected by one or two guys than the Rogue does, since the Rogue only has two proper scenarios where he can deal decent damage: If he's undetected (not the case here) or if he's flanking (impossibru).
And that's not even factoring in possible Favored Terrain (plus Camouflage, potentially) advantages, Favored Enemy, spells (Negate Aroma is god tier for sneaky man), etc.
A Rogue makes a solid secondary scout (who goes out in tandem with the other), since they can do the Stealth bit just fine and can then flank if they get into trouble, but as a primary sneaky man? Not so hot.
TBH if a Fighter snags traits to get Stealth and Perception as a class skill, HE'S probably a better scout than the Rogue for the same reason mentioned above: He can fight his way out of trouble better if detected.
In the interest of getting this thread sorted out properly, I'm flagging my own post.
Seriously, there's no rules question here and it barely qualifies as a discussion. Nothing constructive could possibly come of it.
|
|
I disagree with everything anyone said bad about a rogue. A single level (6) dipped one level in Shadowdancer solves and makes the rogue MORE useful than any silly old Ranger. And if you add in some point blank sniping extra D6's (like say 5d6 instead of what a Ranger gets), they are at least equal (and definitely better in a city or anywhere that isn't the Ranger's favorite terrain). Oh boo hoo... my 6th level rogue only gets to SNIPE, HIPS, move anywhere it wants, SNIPE, HIPS, repeat. 5d6 by time you add the extra arrow and sneak attack damage. At level 6. Ranger says what now? Oh, I get to dip Shadowdancer (too) or else I can't do that until level 12? And only in trees... woopity doo! (hell to be honest, a human fighter trained in a bow is better than a ranger, IMHO - more feats but loses tracking... whoopity doo (again))
A single level (6) dipped one level in Shadowdancer
In which case your a shadowdancer? And gave up a BAB? Never mind the fact 6D6 isn't actually that great.
10th level Rogue Fetchling
Does it have to be a fetchling? I mean, technically a fetchling is a specific race. If you want to talk about the merits of something its probably best not to boast about something that everyone can use, like UMD or a particular race.
I disagree with everything anyone said bad about a rogue. A single level (6) dipped one level in Shadowdancer solves and makes the rogue MORE useful than any silly old Ranger. And if you add in some point blank sniping extra D6's (like say 5d6 instead of what a Ranger gets), they are at least equal (and definitely better in a city or anywhere that isn't the Ranger's favorite terrain). Oh boo hoo... my 6th level rogue only gets to SNIPE, HIPS, move anywhere it wants, SNIPE, HIPS, repeat. 5d6 by time you add the extra arrow and sneak attack damage. At level 6. Ranger says what now? Oh, I get to dip Shadowdancer (too) or else I can't do that until level 12? And only in trees... woopity doo!
Last I checked a 5th Level Rogue/1st Level Shadowdancer has a +3d6 Sneak Attack. I'm also interested how you have a second arrow at level 6 when your BAB is a grand total of +3. Rapid Shot? If so your bonus to attack rolls from BAB with the Rapid Shot penalty added in is a grand total of +1.
"I disagree with your statements on the Rogue, now I'm going to show you a build that taps into another class to gain a useful ability and use that as evidence that the Rogue is good despite the fact that a Ranger could also take the dip and gain just as much benefit out of it."
The build also looks extremely shaky.
|
|
Scavion, yep, your grand bonus with rapid shot is a whopping +1. +2 for being invisible/unseen. + flat footed and hitting touch ac (basically). So thanks for that thought. Oh, and you immediately go into at least 50% cover with HIPS when you are done (and get your stealth to remain unseen AGAIN, at full stealth, not snipe's -20)...
And my point is, if a ranger dips in at level 6, he looses his second attack a round (ie. his "equalizer" with a rogue... well not really, since this allows him 3 arrows, and thus 3d6... not 5d6... I digress...). Unless of course we're talking about specific composite bow strength adding damage boosting bows, the Ranger doesn't quite equal a Rogue at level 6 ... and honestly, IMHO, nowhere along the line. But then I am always using HIPS to stealth and sneak attack when I can, or else flanking to get my rogue's damage in. As opposed to waiting until I am level 12 to HIPS (in "woods" only) and getting 3 attacks (one of which, let's be honest, is no better than the rogue's at this level). Meanwhile, up here at level 12, I am doing 16d6 (8d6 first shot and 7d6 second shot) a round... and the ranger is doing what with his three attacks? Oh yeah... 4d6. Again, I agree to disagree that the Rogue is the worse scout... I give it to the Ranger in their favored terrain, everywhere else is the Rogue's.
Scavion, yep, your grand bonus with rapid shot is a whopping +1. +2 for being invisible/unseen. + flat footed and hitting touch ac (basically). So thanks for that thought. Oh, and you immediately go into at least 50% cover with HIPS when you are done (and get your stealth to remain unseen AGAIN, at full stealth, not snipe's -20)...
What?
You don't get the Invisibility condition for being unseen via Stealth. Flat-footed is specifically nowhere close to Touch Ac, especially since most monsters have really high natural armor or armor and less Dexterity on average.
You mean 50% Total Concealment, not Cover.
Scavion, yep, your grand bonus with rapid shot is a whopping +1. +2 for being invisible/unseen. + flat footed and hitting touch ac (basically). So thanks for that thought. Oh, and you immediately go into at least 50% cover with HIPS when you are done (and get your stealth to remain unseen AGAIN, at full stealth, not snipe's -20)...
And my point is, if a ranger dips in at level 6, he looses his second attack a round (ie. his "equalizer" with a rogue... well not really, since this allows him 3 arrows, and thus 3d6... not 5d6... I digress...). Unless of course we're talking about specific composite bow strength adding damage boosting bows, the Ranger doesn't quite equal a Rogue at level 6 ... and honestly, IMHO, nowhere along the line. But then I am always using HIPS to stealth and sneak attack when I can, or else flanking to get my rogue's damage in. As opposed to waiting until I am level 12 to HIPS (in "woods" only) and getting 3 attacks (one of which, let's be honest, is no better than the rogue's at this level). Meanwhile, up here at level 12, I am doing 16d6 (8d6 first shot and 7d6 second shot) a round... and the ranger is doing what with his three attacks? Oh yeah... 4d6. Again, I agree to disagree that the Rogue is the worse scout... I give it to the Ranger in their favored terrain, everywhere else is the Rogue's.
The funny part is that even giving you all of these advantages you're still inferior to the Ranger who's not attacking from Stealth.
You get ONE shot (if you're Sniping you only get one) at 1d8+Str (probably 14)+3d6+Weapon Enhancement (probably only +1 at 6), for an average of about 19 damage. At a to-hit lower than the Ranger (3 BaB plus 1 weapon plus we'll say 20 Dex, with +9 to-hit. Effectively maybe +10-11 factoring in Flatfooted).
Meanwhile, the Ranger is doing 4d8+12 with that same full round (2 attacks from BaB, Manyshot, and Rapid Shot, with the same damage bonuses your Rogue has). An average of 40 damage, at a to-hit of +10/+10/+5 (+6 BaB plus 1 weapon plus 20 Dex, -2 Rapid Shot, -5 iterative attack).
Even if he only hits with those 2 attacks that are better than yours he's got 3d8+9, for an average of 22...still better damage.
Even if he only hits with ONE attack, that's 2d8+6, for an average of 15. 4 lower than one of your shots, yes, but with the potential (and LIKELY potential) for a hell of a lot more.
And again, that's not factoring in Favored Enemy. In which case both his to-hit and damage laugh at the Rogue's as they leave him in the dust.
Then you factor in the Ranger has the same AC (or better, if he's wearing a Breastplate) and more HP, so he's more likely to SURVIVE an encounter...
Yeah, no. Even your very specific "Rogue" build doesn't do much for it.
Maybe if we were talking Ninja (Swift action invisibility's pretty rad) or a somewhat higher level Elf Arcane Trickster (Blend is likewise pretty stellar), but not a straight Rogue or a Shadowdancer, no.
Human Trapper Ranger 6
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 16 (+5 Armor, +4 Dex, +1 Deflection)
hp 55 (6d10+18)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +5
+2 to Saves vs Death effects, Fear effects and Mind affecting
Defensive Abilities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Falchion +9/+4 2d4+3 18-20x2
Ranged +1 Adaptive Longbow; +10/+10/+5 1d8+8 19-20x3(Always Reckless/Deadly Aim)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 23
Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Reckless Aim, Improved Precise Shot, Endurance
Traits Reincarnated, Deathtouched
Skills Climb +11; Disable Device +13(16 vs Traps); Perception +14(+17 vs Traps); Stealth +13; Survival +11; Swim +11; Handle Animal +7
Languages Common
Other Gear +1 Adaptive Longbow, Masterwork Falchion, Belt of Giant Strength +2, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, +1 Mithril Chainshirt, Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Trapfinding; A trapper adds 1/2 her ranger level on Perception skill checks made to locate traps and on Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A trapper can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Favored Enemy(Monstrous Humanoid +2, Undead +4)
Track; A ranger adds half his level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow tracks.
Favored Terrain(Underground)
Hunter's Bond; Wolf Companion
Trap /5 per Day; Traps Learned; Snare(Su), Poison(Su)
No Manyshot, but I think Improved Precise Shot is better.
|
Alright I want to see this build with high enough UMD and wealth to do all of this. What level is this character so I can tell you which of the many ways in which the caster would avoid the field and summon a ton of monsters (amongst other level dependent solution). But there's is no way a fighter can scale UMD to counteract the strength of full caster at that high a level. The martial's best chance is level 1 and even then color spray can end an encounter.The guy with good enough UMD and wealth to have all the best buffs (who is isolated from a party) is not going to enjoy meeting great dispel magic and mage's disjunction.
I feel like trollbait, I probably never should have stepped into this mess. Also this is in no way a rules question.
If you can cast inside the fighters AMF.
UMD also gives the option to remove magic from the battlefield.
She carries AMF scrolls and has the skill to use them.
My Divine Strategist gets initiative and does 1 of the following:
1) Miracle
2) Gate
3) Implosion
Walks away a happy clerical chappy.......
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
