PFS and spells with very long durations

[Jiggy]

If this is already answered somewhere, I've overlooked it. Feel free to direct me to any existing info.

Anyway, my Eldritch Knight is playing through Eyes of the Ten and has hit 13th level, gaining access to 6th-level spells. Since he often wants to buff before going into melee, I was thinking of picking up contingency so that I can have it set up to give me heroism when I cast shield, thereby streamlining the buffing process.

Then I looked at the duration for contingency, and lo and behold, it's actually 24 hours per level! So once I cast it, I can have a buffing package ready for nearly two weeks. Neat!

So what I'm ultimately wondering is, can a spell with that long of a duration be "pre-cast"? I mean, if he were a real person using that spell, he'd only be prepping/casting it once every 10-12 days (since you can't have multiples running at once), so whenever he gets called to a mission briefing, there's only like a 10% chance (or less) that that's the day he prepped it.

So is there any chance (even if it's a roll witnessed by the GM to see which day it is) of having such a long-term spell already be cast? Or for PFS do we need to assume that you have absolutely nothing running at the start of the scenario, so contingency and its partner spell need to use up your at-the-table slots (making contingency pretty worthless unless multi-day travel is happening in the scenario)?

I thought about just asking my EotT GM what he thought, but since there might be other long-term spells that I'm not aware of, I thought maybe the topic was worth investigating as a community. :)

[Sniggevert]

Personally, I'd run it you'd have to recast it at the start of a scenario. There's a very finite number of spell effects that can carry over to new scenarios, and they're listed in the Guide.

[Zach W.]

I would chalk this one up to GM interpretation. If I was the GM, I would go with a roll to see if it the day you really did prepare the spells. This seems like a pretty standard contingency and since it lasts so long, any caster in their right mind would have it up already.

But RAW, is RAW, so I do not know...

[Marian Rejewski Tarnshiav]

Jiggy,

I think from a player and GM perspective the following is very reasonable:

I was summoned by the Decemverate or some VC, therefore I will likely be fighting in the next 13 days. I will cast my contingency the day I receive the notice, so the day I arrive for my assignment the contingency will already be cast and my 6th level slot will still be available.

You can argue that from a RP perspective. Multiple classes and prestige classes give the ability to re-assign spell slots or fill spell slots short-notice. Even if you do have to cast it day of, how often do you wade into battle the very day you receive your assignment notification?

I think for contingency it's different then say "Dominate Person". I wouldn't assume a dominated NPC is still available from a previous scenario, despite the Day/Level duration. One is an active choice, and one is a lingering result.

Stay Awesome!

Ben

[Jiggy]

Marian Rejewski Tarnshiav wrote:

I will cast my contingency the day I receive the notice, so the day I arrive for my assignment the contingency will already be cast and my 6th level slot will still be available.

Wait, you get notices in advance?

[gnoams]

According to the guide to organized play, there is only a small list of spells (pp24) that you can have carry over, since contingency is not on that list, you unfortunately have to cast it at the beginning of each scenario.

[Jiggy]

gnoams wrote:

According to the guide to organized play, there is only a small list of spells (pp24) that you can have carry over, since contingency is not on that list, you unfortunately have to cast it at the beginning of each scenario.

To be clear, those are things you can cast during one scenario and have them still be active the next scenario. That's not what I'm asking about. I'm asking about casting "off-screen", not during the previous scenario.

Not sure whether that makes a difference in the end, but clarity never hurts. :)

[BigNorseWolf]

I'd say no.

If you can't have something from the end of one scenario come through <indeterminate length of time> to the start of the scenario you can't have something in the middle of <indeterminate length of time> come in at the start of the scenario because half of an indeterminate length of time is still an indeterminate length of time.

[Sniggevert]

Yeah, if you can't have permanent effects carry over from one on-screen time to the next, then you can't cast off-screen to carry forward effects either.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Marian Rejewski Tarnshiav wrote:

Jiggy,

I think from a player and GM perspective the following is very reasonable:

I was summoned by the Decemverate or some VC, therefore I will likely be fighting in the next 13 days. I will cast my contingency the day I receive the notice, so the day I arrive for my assignment the contingency will already be cast and my 6th level slot will still be available.

You can argue that from a RP perspective. Multiple classes and prestige classes give the ability to re-assign spell slots or fill spell slots short-notice. Even if you do have to cast it day of, how often do you wade into battle the very day you receive your assignment notification?

I think for contingency it's different then say "Dominate Person". I wouldn't assume a dominated NPC is still available from a previous scenario, despite the Day/Level duration. One is an active choice, and one is a lingering result.

Stay Awesome!

Ben

I second this, but I'd say check with your GM.

[Andreas Forster]

Jiggy wrote:

Marian Rejewski Tarnshiav wrote:

I will cast my contingency the day I receive the notice, so the day I arrive for my assignment the contingency will already be cast and my 6th level slot will still be available.

Wait, you get notices in advance?

hehe, I had a similar thought. We all know how Drandle Dreng loves to surprise Pathfinders with an "urgent mission" in the middle of the night.

Personally, I'd count the day the characters get the briefing as the day the character has to recast Contingency.
If there are a few days of travel time, then the character is lucky and can prepare other spells in that spell slot. If the characters have to fight bad guys on the same day, then the character can't prepare anything different in that slot.

[Codanous]

I don't know, Jiggy, I am leaning towards a positive interpretation but there is no denying the grayness of the situation. If you came to my table and said, "look my Contingency lasts for 13 days and its set to activate heroism when I cast shield, and as a wizard/magus/witch I'd obviously cast it every 13 days because ya never know when that crazy drendle drang is gonna send some brute to wake me up in the middle of the night to board a boat to fight a dragon in the middle of the continent."

I'd say, "yes yes, makes sense and since there is roughly 30 days between each scenario, you'd have likely cast it on the 13th rest day, the 26th rest day so you'd have already used 4-5 days of the current contingency span,"

Its a YMMV situation though, I wouldn't considerate it a permanent spell trying to be carried over but there is also no denying the strength of allowing contingency. However as you said, there would be better 6th level spells to learn. To me, it seems to fall in sort of twilight zone of the rules.

[kinevon]

Jiggy: Spoileriffic post here.

Notes from original post:
PC is 13th level, so that means you are either going into EotT3 or 4.

EotT4:

Unless you hadn't used it during P3, it will almost certianly not be available/pre-cast at the start of this part. At least not from the flavor text at the start. Heck, my GM for this series essentially told us we couldn't even buy stuff between the end of 3 and the start of 4.

EotT3:

This one is going to be a bit more ETV, IMO. While there is some grey time between the end of P2 and the start of P3, I think there is a contingency in the scenario series that if you hadn't succeeded at rescuing person X, you wouldn't have time to buy, as person X provides an expedited purchase method to you. Then again, that was an Andoran connection, and our GM was giving us our faction missions, which are involved in the SSC for one or more parts of this series.

Without having read the scenario yet, I would say that there may be text in the GM section which would handle times between 2 & 3 for the GM. This series is fairly tight in timeline.

TL;DR: Ask your GM, he should have information available to him in the scenario documentation and flavor text which should give him an idea of how long the time between the part you just completed, and the part you are about to start, is.

[Saint Caleth]

I'd say no. The bounds of a scenario are very clear, from the briefing until the time when conditions have to be cleared. That is basically the only time which truly happens in a PFS character's life. Everything else is just notional as far as I am concerned. That is not to say that it is completely impossible to "pre-cast" things. Many modules and scenarios have at least a day of travel actually in the scenario and that is the time when you would be able to precast muti-day buffs.

Anything else between scenarios is just nebulous time assumed to be there in order to give PFS the facade of being a persistent campaign and nothing can happen then except for house-ruled things like day jobs and buying off chronicles. The only thing that I can think of which persists between scenarios besides the spells enumerated in the guide is charges in spell-storing items, and that is only because I am pretty sure that I remember a specific ruling by Mike about it.

[LazarX]

Jiggy wrote:

If this is already answered somewhere, I've overlooked it. Feel free to direct me to any existing info.

Anyway, my Eldritch Knight is playing through Eyes of the Ten and has hit 13th level, gaining access to 6th-level spells. Since he often wants to buff before going into melee, I was thinking of picking up contingency so that I can have it set up to give me heroism when I cast shield, thereby streamlining the buffing process.

Then I looked at the duration for contingency, and lo and behold, it's actually 24 hours per level! So once I cast it, I can have a buffing package ready for nearly two weeks. Neat!

So what I'm ultimately wondering is, can a spell with that long of a duration be "pre-cast"? I mean, if he were a real person using that spell, he'd only be prepping/casting it once every 10-12 days (since you can't have multiples running at once), so whenever he gets called to a mission briefing, there's only like a 10% chance (or less) that that's the day he prepped it.

So is there any chance (even if it's a roll witnessed by the GM to see which day it is) of having such a long-term spell already be cast? Or for PFS do we need to assume that you have absolutely nothing running at the start of the scenario, so contingency and its partner spell need to use up your at-the-table slots (making contingency pretty worthless unless multi-day travel is happening in the scenario)?

I thought about just asking my EotT GM what he thought, but since there might be other long-term spells that I'm not aware of, I thought maybe the topic was worth investigating as a community. :)

All ongoing non-instanteneous spell effects terminate at the end of the scenario regardless of the duration. That's a non-negotiable rule of PFS play. So there is no way to start a new scenario with an effect on-oing.

[kinevon]

Jiggy: Another option, which would be PFS legal for sure, would be, say, a lesser rod of quicken spell (35,000 gp), to use on the shield spell, so you can cast them both in the same round, and not nibble into your combat time more than jst a regular shield cast would do.

Also, heroism is a 10 minute per level spell. Add a lesser rod of extend spell (3,000 gp), and that 15 minutes per level should give you a fairly useful duration on it.

Probably more cost effective using the lesser extend spell rod. 13th level Wizard, gives a normal duration of 130 minutes, extended is 195 minutes, over 3 hours. Seldom need to cast it often. Add a Pop 2, for 4,000 gp, and you can get it back, if needed. And three uses from the lesser extend rod, so you can do some other low level spell or two, extended, if needed.

[Azothath]

you could cast it during the Venture Captain's spiel as to where you're going... but it might be courteous and wiser to wait until he's finished and you've asked your questions. I don't think there's any "time" before that, but that might be GM dependent. I wouldn't count on it.

Most savvy GMs will require you to write down the spells and the triggering condition on a piece of paper so things don't become unclear during later play. Remember to note(and pay for) the 1500GP focus on your Item Tracking Sheet.

hmmm...(edit) nothing in the spell forbids you from rememorizing the Contingency slot the next day... you just cannot cast another one without affecting the first. Remember also that having cast those two spells qualifies them for a recall using a pearl(s) of power(of the appropriate level). Due to the way Pearls of Power work and the time issue you cannot claim to have cast the spell the day before the adventure and thus recall it at the start of the adventure...

A very expensive Ring of Spell Storing only goes up to 5 spell levels (5th level spell). An Amulet of SPell Mastery as a boned object will do a 6th level spell and is within reach if it is your first magical bonded item.

Kinevon wrote:

The Metamagic rod of extension

for the Heroism is another way to go.

Overall I think it's a high price to save a standard action or a round. I'd rather have a less effective member of the team buff me than be down a 6th level spell such as dazing Fireball or Disintegrate, but that's just my opinion. If it takes days to get to the site of interest, I can see the advantage.

My suggestion is to get a 2000GP Ioun stone (for Shield) or a 50000GP Minor Ring of Spell Storing (for Heroism) and cast the spell into that. That way someone(or something) can cast Heroism on you with the loaner item(assuming they cannot activate a cheaper wand or scroll). A spell in a spell storing item does carry over from one adventure to another (FAQ link). Again - I'd write it down on the previous chronicle (in the Conditions Gained box) in pen so the current GM knows what you did.

[Ferious Thune]

kinevon wrote:

Also, heroism is a 10 minute per level spell. Add a lesser rod of extend spell (3,000 gp), and that 15 minutes per level should give you a fairly useful duration on it.

Probably more cost effective using the lesser extend spell rod. 13th level Wizard, gives a normal duration of 130 minutes, extended is 195 minutes, over 3 hours. Seldom need to cast it often. Add a Pop 2, for 4,000 gp, and you can get it back, if needed. And three uses from the lesser extend rod, so you can do some other low level spell or two, extended, if needed.

Extend Spell doubles the duration, not time and a half. Though scenarios seem to have been moving away from using shorter time frames and have involved more travel time in season 5. Maybe that's just a side-effect of all that travel toward the Worldwound. I imagine most modules probably take place over more than a 4-hour timespan, though. Especially at high levels.

Jiggy: Much as I'd like to say it works, I think under the current rules, it doesn't. The only rule we have to govern it is that spells don't continue past the end of a scenario, and there are no rules about casting spells during downtime (crafter's fortune excepted), which means table variation. To me as a GM, it would depend on the scenario. If the intro says you got your mission then traveled somewhere, yes. If it's Drandle Dreng waking you up in the middle of the night, then no.

Rolling a die to see if it falls on the day you need to recast makes sense, but it also feels a lot like a house rule to me.

[Lormyr]

When I sit down with a table, before even beginning the prologue, I ask every PC "Are there any special magical preparations you took this morning?"

That is your opportunity to let me know you cast a new contingency, made a new spellstaff, emptied out A for B in your cracked vibrant prism ioun stone, ect. Will it eat up your spell slots for the day? Yeah, and that sucks. But it is the best we can do given the specific mechanics of how and which spells carry from session to session in PFS.

I have played with some GMs which will not allow you to have any preparations at the start of game, so you'd have to re-memorize your contingency, rest solely for the purpose of casting it, and all after the prologue has already gotten underway. Talk about completely ridiculous.

[Jiggy]

Hm, maybe my best bet is to start the scenario with that 6th-level slot and a 3rd-level slot empty, find out whether there will be a day passing or not, and then spend 15 minutes filling those slots appropriately.

[David Neilson]

Honestly I just assume that all the lodges have various sorts of areas that dispel most effects, and have "undead to death" effects sweep through occasionally. Which given you are talking about a group that intentionally goes out to find weird and potentially cursed items does make sense.

[andreww]

Jiggy wrote:

Hm, maybe my best bet is to start the scenario with that 6th-level slot and a 3rd-level slot empty, find out whether there will be a day passing or not, and then spend 15 minutes filling those slots appropriately.

This is definately your best idea and the one least open to table variation.

[Lormyr]

David Neilson wrote:

Honestly I just assume that all the lodges have various sorts of areas that dispel most effects, and have "undead to death" effects sweep through occasionally. Which given you are talking about a group that intentionally goes out to find weird and potentially cursed items does make sense.

Having those sorts of effects in constant employment is a little bit unrealistic (even in terms of this fantasy setting) except in the most high-powered bases of operation, let alone in all lodges.

I tend to think of the Pathfinder Society on different terms. Plethora of constant effects to the point of every lodge humming like a beacon of arcane power? Not so much. Relatively easy access to a 6th level or lower magical means of correcting most problems? Absolutely. The question is more of who do you have to contact to get it taken care of, and will it take the individual minutes, hours, or days to get to you with the magical remedy?

[Azothath]

Jiggy wrote:

Hm, maybe my best bet is to start the scenario with that 6th-level slot and a 3rd-level slot empty, find out whether there will be a day passing or not, and then spend 15 minutes filling those slots appropriately.

I agree it is a great strategy, costs nothing, and is BTB(so no questions about cheese or legality).

If you go this route, you might want to leave a slot open at each spell level as the time cost is the same (so long as it is less than 25% of your spell list).

It might be crazy (just musing, in for a penny - in for a pound!) - but if you have an hour you can do your whole spell list (or crazy smart depending on circumstances, lol). Most wizards/spell preparers are themed and have a core selection of spells based on their character design and feat selection, so a lot of variability isn't that important, so it depends on your build. There are times when you need 4 Endure Elements, Darkvision, or Phantom Steed and Pearls of Power on hand may not cover the redundancy.

In either case, just let your GM know before you start what slots you leave open so he'll know what you're up to.

On action economy, having your friend(party member) or familiar cast the spell leads to an inexpensive and natural action economy for you (lol) as they are devoting their actions to you. In my experience, on the 2nd to 3rd round some classes have cast their buffs and are standing around or pulling weapons preparing... it behooves you to watch what other players at the table are doing and give them something to do if they are not as effective as they could be. Just be tactful and diplomatic.

[Thod]

Jiggy

Nice idea - but too wide open for abuse.
Otherwise I see someone start with
Animal messenger (cast it 5 days ago)
Charm Monster (run into him in the training yard 2 days ago)
Command plants (the pot I carry contains some ivy that I have been digging up last week and that is doing what I want to do for me - please climb up that wall for me)
Command undead (they don't carry over but I cast it yesterday - so isn't from last scenario !)
Control weather - there is currently sun out (place appropriate weather in here) as I cast it yesterday
Dimensional Lock (not useful? as the place in space won't travel)
Dominate Person (why waste prestige on a porter if you just cast it on some random mook every two weeks)
Geas Lesser (some more options to get followers from the street)
Goodberries (every druid starts with a large bag full of them)
Illusory script

I'm stopping here having got only to I in the CRB. Some options would start early - Animal messenger and Goodberries. Some might not make that much sense, cause issues ...

[Table Variation]

andreww wrote:

This is definately your best idea and the one least open to table variation.

You can run, but you can't hide...

[BigNorseWolf]

Table Variation wrote:

andreww wrote:

This is definately your best idea and the one least open to table variation.

You can run, but you can't hide...

I'm pretty sure you're not needed here. This is a no.

[nosig]

I have all ready encountered this with a lower level spell, and often have had to shrug and say, as somone above said:
"Much as I'd like to say it works, I think under the current rules, it doesn't. "

the lower level spell is goodberry which even the Iconic Druid uses. Duration is a day per level. A Druid with one of these spells prepared and cast each day, should have a large number of berries in hand at the start of a scenario. For example, a 5th level druid should have cast it at least once each day in the last 5 days - and each spell should produce 2d4 g'berries... which will heal a HP (up to 8 per PC). If we add in the use of a Pearl of Power, the number of spells cast will double (or tripple with 2 pearls, etc.).

I've seen (and used) this in Home games, but when I have seen Druid players ask about this in the past, in PFS games I have been a player in (I don't run Druids in PFS), the judge has always said something like - "Much as I'd like to say it works, I think under the current rules, it doesn't. " And the druid will then begin casting the spell each day, at the end of the day, in the scenario. Which means if the scenario starts in the VC briefing and then inserts travel the Druid starts with a number of g'berries, but if you start the scenario with a "flash back" to the briefing days ago - the druid "forgot" to cast the spell for the last XX days...

[kinevon]

The flashback start should still allow daily casting, if it allows for item purchase, which it uasually does.

And, indeed, my memory got confused, extend spell is indeed double, not just 1.5, so a 13th level extended cast of a ten minute per level spell would have an actual duration, discounting dispel magic. [ianti-magic field[/i], or the Mana Wastes, of 260 minutes, something over 4 hours. Which should cover most dungeon-crawl type things, although it won't cover a heavily investigative scenario.

[Table Variation]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Table Variation wrote:

andreww wrote:

This is definately your best idea and the one least open to table variation.

You can run, but you can't hide...

I'm pretty sure you're not needed here. This is a no.

I'll go. But you haven't seen the last of me.

[Azothath]

Table Variation wrote:

I'll go. But you haven't seen the last of me.

I find there is table variation whenever I change location. Some tables are square, others round, and sometimes you have to put 4 tables together and you get a sag/bump in the center under the map and the minis tend to fall over, othertimes you get cheap nylon tablecloths with accumulated food stains from the last century... such a bother.