Alright, so yet again I come to the Advice forums. After having posted asking for ideas on AoO's and how to grant them to my unique party, I think I've come up with a build. At the moment...it's just the skeleton of one, and that's why I've come to you. I need help fleshing it out. Here we go:
Campaign: Wrath of the Righteous
Group
- Flowing Monk with Trip shenanigans and Boar Style
- Paladin of Iomedae (has Radiance), damage/defense hybrid
- Rogue/Magus/Arcane Trickster....coward.
- Mystic Theurge (great system mastery), took Toppling spell for helping to trip
- Dhampir Cleric healbot
And then there's me. Originally built as a S&B Ranger for damage, then Lorewarden to help enable trips. Unfortunately, with our group we don't have nearly as much damage output as we should...so I was doing more contributing to that than tripping...making me second rate at everything. So I'm using rebuilding to try and make an Enabler character that can deal decent damage. Here's the skeleton:
Race: Dwarf
Class breakdown: Paladin 3(Holy Tactician), Cavalier 8(Strategist, Honor Guard, Order of the Shield), Golden Legionnaire 9
Traits
Exposed to Awfulness
Optimistic Gambler
Adopted (Halfling [Helpful])
Using Holy Tactician I get to boost my saves, and have a nearly always on sharing of Paired Opportunist. Since I'll be wielding either a Dwarven Longhammer, or Dorn-Duergar, the combo already starts. Cavalier gives me two more ways of sharing teamwork feats, although somewhat limited. Need to find ways of gaining additional challenges. Mythic abilities help since eventually we'll regain daily resources after 1 hour rest. Order of the Shield is important in order to replace the Stand Still CMB check with an actual attack. Legionnaire gives some nice bonus feats, as well as continues to grant ways to trigger AoO's.
From here, I have ideas towards feats:
Eldritch Heritage [Orc]
Dazing Assault
And....from there everything is kinda open. Obvious candidates are Power Attack (Mythic makes this great). I also thought of coupling it with the Vital Strike Chain and Felling Smash chain if I can fit it in. With Mythic support, it helps a ton...and allows me to stay mobile without having to worry about full attacks as much.
TLDR: AoO triggering group friendly build, that still deals damage and can survive.
I am not familiar with the AP you are playing, and not too familiar with the mythic rules, but I can try to give some advice.
I think your party has a large trip focus right now and that could be trouble later. Once everything can fly nothing can be tripped, this may be less of an issue in some campaigns. It also seems like the setup without you is this: Monk, Paladin and Cleric are hard to kill and get near the enemies and Trickster and Theurge hit with spells from the back. I think what your group needs more than anything is an archer who focuses on DPR. A Zen Archer, Ranger, Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian will do that and be tough to kill as well.
Well, the Theurge doesn't actually have much of a Trip focus, just the one Topping Spell. Adds great utility for our Monk's Vicious Stomp and such.
The Cleric actually sits in the back and heals mostly, not really a front liner. Her and the theurge do their thing in the back and are fairly effective. I wasn't really sold on the whole "healbot" thing, but with our party....yeah, it's needed.
The Trickster...isn't really ranged. It's a goblin with a couple of daggers. They're not really interested in ranged.
As for your suggestion that we need ranged support...I agree with you. I'm just not really able to actualize that with my stat array as a Dwarf. I have a Dex of 10. But I agree, ranged is needed. If I could figure out a way to have a ranged/support character...well, I might see what I could do. I guess I can start looking at possible builds. At the moment, my reach is working fairly well...especially since I picked up an extra 5 ft reach for AoO's through Mythic.
Hmmm, sounds like the Arcane Trickster has decided to play "The Load" rather than something useful. Characters that don't attack from range and don't have good hp/AC and don't buff or heal are pretty useless.
What level and build are you playing now? Are you actually level 20 or is that simply the plan for leveling? If you have stats already, you are gonna get mostly useless advice unless you post them.
Hmmm, sounds like the Arcane Trickster has decided to play "The Load" rather than something useful. Characters that don't attack from range and don't have good hp/AC and don't buff or heal are pretty useless.
What level and build are you playing now? Are you actually level 20 or is that simply the plan for leveling? If you have stats already, you are gonna get mostly useless advice unless you post them.
Good points. For the Rogue, I think it was a matter of developing organically...and he hadn't looked far enough ahead. Now, he's trying to make all of his choices "work." Eh, he's a newer player.
We just hit level 9, with Mythic Tier 3.
Starting stats were
Str: 17
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 11
Aside from normal level increases, also get +2 to stat of choice at 5, and then +2 to stat of choice every 2 Tiers.
Stats are actually part of my apparent problem. I'm stretched pretty thin. Although the Eldritch Heritage [Orc] helps alleviate some of the problems at least for Strength, having to have the Int for the Trip feats, and then the Cha for heritage (normally a dump)...has made it interesting. I guess if I don't go Trip, I could drop some Int advances.
Hmmm, sounds like the Arcane Trickster has decided to play "The Load" rather than something useful. Characters that don't attack from range and don't have good hp/AC and don't buff or heal are pretty useless.
What level and build are you playing now? Are you actually level 20 or is that simply the plan for leveling? If you have stats already, you are gonna get mostly useless advice unless you post them.
Useless in combat, perhaps, but not necessarily useless. He might be the guy who scouts ahead and gives the party important information and examines the battlefield after the area is secured and finds clues.
I LOVE Snake Fang. Take a 3-4 level dip into Monk Master of Many Styles, and you will get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity every time someone attacks and misses you. Since MOMS Monks don't get Flurry anyway, you can still wear your Cavalier/Paladin armor. Take Monsastic Legacy, and your Unarmed Strikes will keep increasing in damage as you take levels in other things.
I was recently shown how awesome Inquisitors can be, with 3 levels of Inquisitor, you can get a bonus Teamwork Feat, and you can swap out Teamwork feats if one of them isn't working. With 5 levels of Inquisitor, you can Bane your fist you keep getting those AoO's with. With Paired Opportunist and Tactician, you can give out AoO's to your whole party, especially that Flowing/Tripping Monk. You'll be Opportunity Buddies.
Consider Precise Strike as a Teamwork Feat, the one that gives 1d6 Precision Damage. You can coax your Arcane Trickster into combat maybe and be Backstab Buddies with him.
This can be really awesome if you combine Shield Slam, Great Bull Rush, and Paired Opportunist. With Shield Slam, you get a free bull rush; with Great Bull Rush, your allies get AoO's; and with Paired Opporuntist, you get one, too. If you manage to flank your opponent, your ally will arrest your opponent's actual movement from the bull rush, but the AoO's will still happen. When you get your AoO, Shield Slam him again and get more AoO's all around. You'll be spit-roasting those poor monsters! I you put a Bashing enchantment on a +1 shield, it only costs 4000gp, and if you put it on a Large Spiked Shield or a Klar, it will do 2d6 base damage on a shield bash. Putting a +1 on the shield as a weapon from that point will only cost 2000gp.
Using the Forge of Combat metaphor, your group has a deficiency of hammers. You will do a great job of tying down the enemy, and you can maintain it for a while, but your group seems to lack the ability to inflict massive HP damage to bring down foes. The Paladin's smite evil may be your group's saving grace.
It's a pity your Cleric huddles in the back, content to be a healbot. A cleric with basic martial competence would really bolster your front line, inflict solid HP damage, exploit allied trips, and still heal 80% as well. If your cleric took the feat Alignment Channel (Evil) she could inflict automatic damage on all demons in 30' radius. Dead demons inflict no damage. I hear there are demons in Wrath of the Righteous.
@OP: You say you want to optimize AoOs to exploit your ally's trips, and to inflict a lot of HP damage. That sounds like exactly what the group needs. While they also need a ranged damage dealer, it would be a pity to let all those trips go to waste. I think a Zen Archer can eventually take AoOs with a bow. Can someone who knows please elucidate?
Basic way to exploit allied trips:
Start with good strength, the feats Combat Reflexes & Power Attack, and a reach weapon. Position yourself skillfully. Pump your to-hit and damage bonuses. Consider a way to get Large, so you have a 50' diameter zone of control. Pile on buffs that stack.
Over-the-top way to exploit allied trips:
Start your career as a Battle Cleric of Erastil with the Growth and Feather domains. Either remain a full caster cleric your entire career, else at 2nd level switch to some other class that also gets an Animal Companion (Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Sorcerer, etc). Consider using a lance, but do not take the Mounted Combat feat line. Pay the Boon Companion feat tax.
From first level onward you can cast Swift Action Enlarge Person on yourself. Combined with your reach weapon you get a huge (50' diameter) zone of control right from the start. Great strength, Large size, Power Attack, buffs, and a magic weapon will add pain to your ally's embarrassing trips.
At 5th level you will have a full animal companion and can both fly. Fly is a Domain spell, a class skill, and is further augmented by your Feather Domain. Get an Axe Beak. Ride it. Get a custom warrior's saddle. The irony of riding a flying flightless bird is downright silly. Your longspear and your pet's reach threaten all the same squares 10' away.
Both you and your Axe Beak take the feats Combat Reflexes and Paired Opportunists. Now every AoO becomes two AoOs, both at +4 to hit. The Axe Beak gets x1.5 STR to damage, so Bull's Strength is a terrific buff for it. If you remained a full Cleric be sure to take the feat Alignment Channel. You can then hover above the battlefield, over a clump of demons, and blast them all from the air whilst simultaneously getting devastating pairs of +4 AoOs at anything that provokes.
Cast Enlarge Person on your Axe Beak. It's a Domain spell, and the Share Spells class feature allows this to work on your Animal Companion. Now you can both enlarge and still benefit from Paired Opportunists. Be aware of your mount's encumbrance. Almost anything that provokes an AoO on the battlefield will draw some of your 6-8 AoOs, usually in pairs of two. This all works by 5th level.
Consider Broken Wing Gambit for the win. This would work especially well for a Cavalier. Consider finding a way to cast Truestrike on your axe beak before it charges, for an almost automatic charging trip.
So here're the ways I'm exploiting/triggering AoO's with the current skeleton build.
Teamwork:
Holy Tactician: Constant sharing of Paired Opportunist
Cavalier Tactician: 2/day can share another Teamwork feat for 7 rounds
Cavalier Drill Instructor: 3/day can share another feat for 14 minutes
That's what I've got for the sharing of Teamwork. I think it's a decent setup. Paired Opportunist, Broken Wing Gambit, and Outflank are the choices I'm looking at. They go well together. Especially for the team I'm working with. The two Cavalier abilities are limited use, however once we hit a certain Tier, you regain all daily resources after an hour's rest.
AoO Triggers:
Standard Reach: Reach weapon, Enlarge Person through Eldritch Heritage, and an additional 5ft. through a Mythic ability. My reach is awesome.
Golden Legionnaire: Hold the Line, Preemptive Strike, and Retaliate all trigger AoO's for movement, and attacking allies.
I'm making serious considerations towards maneuvers, however the feat investment is rough. I'll be alleviating some of that with the Mythic ability Maneuver Master, that allows me to have the Improved and Greater versions of the feat for a round by spending a points of Mythic Power. I think for this build, Shield Slam is out though. So high damage, with a side of shenanigans is my direction.
Using the Forge of Combat metaphor, your group has a deficiency of hammers. You will do a great job of tying down the enemy, and you can maintain it for a while, but your group seems to lack the ability to inflict massive HP damage to bring down foes. The Paladin's smite evil may be your group's saving grace.
It's a pity your Cleric huddles in the back, content to be a healbot. A cleric with basic martial competence would really bolster your front line, inflict solid HP damage, exploit allied trips, and still heal 80% as well. If your cleric took the feat Alignment Channel (Evil) she could inflict automatic damage on all demons in 30' radius. Dead demons inflict no damage. I hear there are demons in Wrath of the Righteous.
@OP: You say you want to optimize AoOs to exploit your ally's trips, and to inflict a lot of HP damage. That sounds like exactly what the group needs. While they also need a ranged damage dealer, it would be a pity to let all those trips go to waste. I think a Zen Archer can eventually take AoOs with a bow. Can someone who knows please elucidate?
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Brol does not understand our cleric...she does do offensive channels when appropriate...it's just all too often she gets stuck picking up someone's jaw and welding it back with a spell(not actually but dang near). In the last session it got a little less hairy as far as that goes.
It's true I'm unclear of what all she can do....mostly because she's spending all of her time making sure we don't die. Of which I am immensely grateful.
I'm not meaning to bash on her build, or any of the others. I am simply trying to describe the group as best I can, in order to maximize my potential and fill any holes.
So here're the ways I'm exploiting/triggering AoO's with the current skeleton build.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I'm making serious considerations towards maneuvers, however the feat investment is rough. I'll be alleviating some of that with the Mythic ability Maneuver Master, that allows me to have the Improved and Greater versions of the feat for a round by spending a points of Mythic Power. I think for this build, Shield Slam is out though. So high damage, with a side of shenanigans is my direction.
The other problem is with your mythic ability you can choose to have the maneuver you need on the spot...if the feats can be used for other things you may get more mileage out of them that way.
My thoughts as well, although with all of the AoO's, I wasn't sure if having at least the trip feats constant would be handy, so I'm not burning through all of my MP.
Here's what I have for the feat breakdown. I'm not sure on the order of taking some of the feats though.
Exposed to Awfulness
Optimistic Gambler
Adopted (Halfling [Helpful])
It's true I'm unclear of what all she can do....mostly because she's spending all of her time making sure we don't die. Of which I am immensely grateful.
I'm not meaning to bash on her build, or any of the others. I am simply trying to describe the group as best I can, in order to maximize my potential and fill any holes.
Basically her build is:
1. Channel vs everything
2. Since she is 1 spell level ahead of my theurge she goes for the higher level "unscrew the party" spells until I catch up, then she focuses more on combat related AoE spells like Holy word and what not as my guy can do "answer in a can" with spells of his level (dual path with both of the spontaneous cast anything on my list powers for a MP)
3. Prepare offensive, debuff, buff, and AoE spells.
She is not built for melee, can do ranged ....ok. Partly due to my advice, she does not have the super high AC we would have for society (the way the AP is set up on in game loot it kinda is much more restrictive than PFS...which is sorta completely opposite the norm) because I have consistently advised the front liners to get first crack at AC items...in the hopes that she can do something more than heal :)
The Theurge is built to be an answer in a can for spell utility. I have consecrate spell and toppling spell. Now that we hit tier 3 mythic I can pull off a 1 minute free use of all arcane spells as consecrated (max vs evil) which will now give us some more boom power...also finally started getting access to boom spells (with party make up I picked haste first, and I'm a sorcerer). I think we now have some more "hammer" in spell ends than what we had before. I also picked up a few mythic spells that let me ignore Res and Immunity to energy to help with that. Nothing like 8d6 fire that becomes max 8d8 with full damage going through.
I've had 2 characters like that. A d20 Modern character with Improved Combat Throw and Improved Trip "Bertram Sullivan, Royal Marines!" and a PFS character, Olga the Nightmare Blakovitch, with Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes. The D20 Modern Character was going to be further developed with Combat Brute, Pushback, and Shock Trooper. The PFS character I took more in the direction of grappling.
In both cases, I ran into the problem of the AC being too low, and I had to rethink how I did things. The next time I make a character with Snake Fang, I will Develop the DPR more thoroughly. I will take a level in Unarmed Fighter and Panther Claw, and also take Dodge and Mobility to bump up the AC by +5.
One of the things I tried with the PFS character was to take Keen Scent, Blind Fighting, and get an Eversmoking Bottle, making everyone blind, 50% miss chance and flatfooted, but being able to operate effectively while blinded myself. The problem was that the volume of smoke produced is huge and nearly always blinds the party members, too, and they almost never were able to function in the smoke. In a homespun campaign, maybe everybody will be willing to buy in on the strategy, and each work out his own way to operate while blind. I like the idea of layers of Defense, a miss chance, a high AC, Damage Reduction, and Fast Healing.
If you're doing a Dwarven Holy Tactician, consider worshipping Torag and picking up Defensive Strategist + Lookout. You can switch to Paired Opportunist or Outflank as a swift action, but you're likely to avoid a lot of surprise rounds (or get some great full round ambushes.)
If youre Mystic Theurge is a Diviner, your Cleric is Divine Strategist, or your Paladin's mount is a Bodyguard, you'll never be surprised.
Oh! These are extremely high level characters! You are creating a high level character! That's a completely different proposition from creating a low level character who will gradually level up! That was not clear to me in the initial post. Perhaps I need better reading comprehension.
I figured he was bringing a high level character into an established party, but a good build considers what the character will be like at low levels. And it is important to consider the cost of the effects you are trying to achieve.
The Snake Fang trigger can be achieved with 2 levels in Monk, Master of Many Styles. They can skip the Snake Sidewind feat. 1 level in Cavalier, and several problems are solved at once. The AC go up since Cavaliers can wear armor. MOMS monks have no flurry to lose. Then there’s the Teamwork Feat and Tactician to pass it around. With Paired Opportunist, you pass out AoO’s to others. That only costs 1 level. You can have this effect at only level 3. In Brol's party, it will be even cooler because there is another AoO build in the party already. They will feed off of each other.
Add 1 level in Fighter with the Unarmed Archetype, and you get bonus attacks via Panther Claw. Take Dodge and Mobility, and you get +5 AC, important, since Panther Claw depends on provoking attacks of opportunity from others, and Snake Fang only triggers if those attacks miss. And no one wants the Word of the Day to be “Glass Cannon”
A half orc can operate in blinding smoke (say, an Eversmoking Bottle) at the cost of 2 feats: Keen Scent and Blind Fighting.
A Tiefling can incorporate his claws into the attack routine at the cost of 2 feats: Weapon Focus Claws and Feral Combat Training. A level 2 Alchemist can do the same thing with a Tentacle Discovery. Tentacles have grab. You can grapple as a free action with every one of those free attacks and attacks of opportunity. My PFS melee characters tend to have 16 Dex and 14 Wis at 1st level, so that’s 6 bonus attacks/round (by level 4!). Wear spiked armor and you have just added 1d6+ bonuses per attack! So if your strength is 14, and you have no magical bonuses, that’s 7(2d6+4)=77hp/round DPR by like level 7. The Tiefling can incorporate a grappling effect like that with the Hamatula Strike feat. I think Claws are slashing weapons, but Feral Combat Training will allow him to apply Snake Style to his claws, and that makes them piercing.
Take a 3rd level in Monk, and take Monastic Legacy. The Unarmed strikes will go up to 1d8 by level 5, 1d10, by level 13, and 2d6 by level 21, faster if you take more levels in Monk.
Take 2 levels in Ranger, and take Improve Natural Attack. After level 5, your damage will go up to 2d6. At level 13, 2d8, and at level 21, 3d6.
A strong grappling effect can be achieved with just Greater Grapple and Expert Captor: take another level in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent.
Anyway, that’s what I like doing, achieving a series of interlocking, inexpensive and awesome effects that will have the character start out strong, and multiply his force as he gains levels.
That's quite the monster of a build Scott. Although after the last build I was playing, I'm trying to keep the dipping to a minimum.
After posting the Pally/Cav build, I was considering the Opportunity Cost incurred by doing so. Is taking the Cavalier 8 worth it, versus just going Holy Tactician 10 or 11? Yes, I wouldn't be able to share a total of 3! Teamwork feats at the same time, but I wonder if in most situations, just the one would do. Broken Wing gambit works when we're not adjacent, but threatening the same foes....whereas Paired Opportunist is better when we can chain together adjacent. So being able to share 1 constantly, but switch as a swift action almost seems enough.
Sticking with Pally would give me a much better Weal's Champion, Lay on Hands, and other Pally goodies. So it comes down to a comparison of Opportunity cost. Is the better Pally goodies worth the trade-off of a slightly buffed Aid Another, and two forms of limited sharing, and better Stand Still attack? Thoughts? Has anyone actually PLAYED a tactician type character, vs. just theorycrafting?
And for better clarification and reposting, We're at lvl 9, Tier 3.
That's quite the monster of a build Scott. Although after the last build I was playing, I'm trying to keep the dipping to a minimum.
Thanks, Brol!
I have not been shy about dipping here and there into this class and that, but I get not wanting to. My last character was so complicated, I was having trouble keeping track of it all.
I've done more theorycrafting than playing, but I did play that character with Snake Fang, Tactician, and Paired Opportunist. She was a PFS character, and there was disappointingly few players were willing to take advantage of the AoO's I was giving out. But that is PFS, the players don't make characters for each other, but for themselves, only, and in a lot of cases, they don't even know each other. At the table, I encounter a lot of resistance to discussing tactics at the table, and a real lack of tactical cohesion, if not a lack of competence (sometimes). Also, AoO builds are rare in PFS, in spite of the fact that they are powerful by themselves and devastating when working together.
But your party sounds like it has been working together for some time, and you won't have any of those problems.
Just throwing this out there, but we have two Dervishes of Dawn - twins actually - in our Wrath of the Righteous campaign who wield scimitars and fight together using Broken Wing Gambit, Paired Opportunists and Seize the Moment. The effects are pretty spectacular.
EDIT: We also had, in out Rise of the Runelords campaign, a pretty amazing Goblin Brawler whom by 12th level was making 8-10 attacks in a round regularly. He had a two level dip in MoMS for Snake Fang and could absolutely shut down any caster he got adjacent to through Menacing Stance, Standstill and No Escape.
