@Imbicatus. I'm not so sure that's accurate. Strong Swing allows you to use your weapon or shield for any of your attacks as part of a full attack. Also supported by the fact that you don't incur any TWF penalties. Normally while twf'ng you have to alternate weapons following the BAB progression, while incurring penalties.
I'll be honest, I was waiting for others to chime in. I'll take the fact that they didn't as a general consensus that this is the way it's interpreted though.
Alright, so we started at lvl 1....and I would say we're not nearly balanced...and fairly under geared, we are:
Theurge: Sorceror/Cleric (well built by someone with experience)
Cleric: Basic healbot
Paladin: Sword and board....not even close to well built
Monk: Flowing Monk....good at giving a beating, moderately built for simplicity
Golden Legionairre: Reach/Bodyguard type, focused around party aid and AoO's
So I'm in a home group running through WotR. We recently hit level 12 with Mythic Tier 5 and should be tearing through combat encounters....but we're not. This last fight was an outright slog. We faced a caster that had swarm like abilities and flight. It was a pain. But it got me to thinking....we're probably going to start encountering mobs with similar abilities.
So my question is thus. What are the suggested levels for having ways to deal with the various creature abilities like Fly, Concealment, etc. is there a guide out there that discusses this? What're some level appropriate items and such to help deal with such?
Basically, does this combo work together? For clarity, here's the wording of the feats as well as an example scenario.
Bodyguard (Combat)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally's AC.
Paired Opportunists (Combat, Teamwork)
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity against creatues that you both threaten. Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them (even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the AoO).
Now the Scenario. Fighter A and Reach Cavalier B are fighting in your standard dungeon adjacent to each other. Reach Cav B has Bodyguard, and is sharing Paired Opportunists through his abilities. BigNasty Orc is adjacent to Fighter A, and 10ft from RCB. BigNasty attacks Fighter A, triggering an Attack of Opportunity from RCB thanks to Bodyguard.
Now, do the two feats interact as they seem to? Would the AoO granted through Bodyguard then trigger Fighter A's Paired Opportunists feat granting him an AoO on BigNasty? Thanks!
At the moment I don't have much of a critique, other than that both Mythic Leadership, and Mythic Improved Vital Strike feats don't actually exist in Pathfinder books. Those are 3rd party feats, so could be banned.
On the other hand, there is a Mythic Ability on the Marshal Path that does the same thing....ish. Perfect Leadership.
That's quite the monster of a build Scott. Although after the last build I was playing, I'm trying to keep the dipping to a minimum.
After posting the Pally/Cav build, I was considering the Opportunity Cost incurred by doing so. Is taking the Cavalier 8 worth it, versus just going Holy Tactician 10 or 11? Yes, I wouldn't be able to share a total of 3! Teamwork feats at the same time, but I wonder if in most situations, just the one would do. Broken Wing gambit works when we're not adjacent, but threatening the same foes....whereas Paired Opportunist is better when we can chain together adjacent. So being able to share 1 constantly, but switch as a swift action almost seems enough.
Sticking with Pally would give me a much better Weal's Champion, Lay on Hands, and other Pally goodies. So it comes down to a comparison of Opportunity cost. Is the better Pally goodies worth the trade-off of a slightly buffed Aid Another, and two forms of limited sharing, and better Stand Still attack? Thoughts? Has anyone actually PLAYED a tactician type character, vs. just theorycrafting?
And for better clarification and reposting, We're at lvl 9, Tier 3.
My thoughts as well, although with all of the AoO's, I wasn't sure if having at least the trip feats constant would be handy, so I'm not burning through all of my MP.
Here's what I have for the feat breakdown. I'm not sure on the order of taking some of the feats though.
Exposed to Awfulness
Optimistic Gambler
Adopted (Halfling [Helpful])
It's true I'm unclear of what all she can do....mostly because she's spending all of her time making sure we don't die. Of which I am immensely grateful.
I'm not meaning to bash on her build, or any of the others. I am simply trying to describe the group as best I can, in order to maximize my potential and fill any holes.
So here're the ways I'm exploiting/triggering AoO's with the current skeleton build.
Teamwork:
Holy Tactician: Constant sharing of Paired Opportunist
Cavalier Tactician: 2/day can share another Teamwork feat for 7 rounds
Cavalier Drill Instructor: 3/day can share another feat for 14 minutes
That's what I've got for the sharing of Teamwork. I think it's a decent setup. Paired Opportunist, Broken Wing Gambit, and Outflank are the choices I'm looking at. They go well together. Especially for the team I'm working with. The two Cavalier abilities are limited use, however once we hit a certain Tier, you regain all daily resources after an hour's rest.
AoO Triggers:
Standard Reach: Reach weapon, Enlarge Person through Eldritch Heritage, and an additional 5ft. through a Mythic ability. My reach is awesome.
Golden Legionnaire: Hold the Line, Preemptive Strike, and Retaliate all trigger AoO's for movement, and attacking allies.
I'm making serious considerations towards maneuvers, however the feat investment is rough. I'll be alleviating some of that with the Mythic ability Maneuver Master, that allows me to have the Improved and Greater versions of the feat for a round by spending a points of Mythic Power. I think for this build, Shield Slam is out though. So high damage, with a side of shenanigans is my direction.
Hmmm, sounds like the Arcane Trickster has decided to play "The Load" rather than something useful. Characters that don't attack from range and don't have good hp/AC and don't buff or heal are pretty useless.
What level and build are you playing now? Are you actually level 20 or is that simply the plan for leveling? If you have stats already, you are gonna get mostly useless advice unless you post them.
Good points. For the Rogue, I think it was a matter of developing organically...and he hadn't looked far enough ahead. Now, he's trying to make all of his choices "work." Eh, he's a newer player.
We just hit level 9, with Mythic Tier 3.
Starting stats were
Str: 17
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 11
Aside from normal level increases, also get +2 to stat of choice at 5, and then +2 to stat of choice every 2 Tiers.
Stats are actually part of my apparent problem. I'm stretched pretty thin. Although the Eldritch Heritage [Orc] helps alleviate some of the problems at least for Strength, having to have the Int for the Trip feats, and then the Cha for heritage (normally a dump)...has made it interesting. I guess if I don't go Trip, I could drop some Int advances.
Well, the Theurge doesn't actually have much of a Trip focus, just the one Topping Spell. Adds great utility for our Monk's Vicious Stomp and such.
The Cleric actually sits in the back and heals mostly, not really a front liner. Her and the theurge do their thing in the back and are fairly effective. I wasn't really sold on the whole "healbot" thing, but with our party....yeah, it's needed.
The Trickster...isn't really ranged. It's a goblin with a couple of daggers. They're not really interested in ranged.
As for your suggestion that we need ranged support...I agree with you. I'm just not really able to actualize that with my stat array as a Dwarf. I have a Dex of 10. But I agree, ranged is needed. If I could figure out a way to have a ranged/support character...well, I might see what I could do. I guess I can start looking at possible builds. At the moment, my reach is working fairly well...especially since I picked up an extra 5 ft reach for AoO's through Mythic.
Alright, so yet again I come to the Advice forums. After having posted asking for ideas on AoO's and how to grant them to my unique party, I think I've come up with a build. At the moment...it's just the skeleton of one, and that's why I've come to you. I need help fleshing it out. Here we go:
Campaign: Wrath of the Righteous
Group
- Flowing Monk with Trip shenanigans and Boar Style
- Paladin of Iomedae (has Radiance), damage/defense hybrid
- Rogue/Magus/Arcane Trickster....coward.
- Mystic Theurge (great system mastery), took Toppling spell for helping to trip
- Dhampir Cleric healbot
And then there's me. Originally built as a S&B Ranger for damage, then Lorewarden to help enable trips. Unfortunately, with our group we don't have nearly as much damage output as we should...so I was doing more contributing to that than tripping...making me second rate at everything. So I'm using rebuilding to try and make an Enabler character that can deal decent damage. Here's the skeleton:
Race: Dwarf
Class breakdown: Paladin 3(Holy Tactician), Cavalier 8(Strategist, Honor Guard, Order of the Shield), Golden Legionnaire 9
Traits
Exposed to Awfulness
Optimistic Gambler
Adopted (Halfling [Helpful])
Using Holy Tactician I get to boost my saves, and have a nearly always on sharing of Paired Opportunist. Since I'll be wielding either a Dwarven Longhammer, or Dorn-Duergar, the combo already starts. Cavalier gives me two more ways of sharing teamwork feats, although somewhat limited. Need to find ways of gaining additional challenges. Mythic abilities help since eventually we'll regain daily resources after 1 hour rest. Order of the Shield is important in order to replace the Stand Still CMB check with an actual attack. Legionnaire gives some nice bonus feats, as well as continues to grant ways to trigger AoO's.
From here, I have ideas towards feats:
Eldritch Heritage [Orc]
Dazing Assault
And....from there everything is kinda open. Obvious candidates are Power Attack (Mythic makes this great). I also thought of coupling it with the Vital Strike Chain and Felling Smash chain if I can fit it in. With Mythic support, it helps a ton...and allows me to stay mobile without having to worry about full attacks as much.
TLDR: AoO triggering group friendly build, that still deals damage and can survive.
Actually, I realize my stats for Paladin are way off. I was thinking of taking Paladin due to the ongoing story we're encountering in the Wrath AP. I was even able to convert another Dwarf to Ragathiel.
Although I was looking to take Paladin for RP and story reasons, I'm still hoping that the boards here can help me on how to make the best out of it...or if I'm just hosed. I was looking at either stone lord since it interacts less with Charisma, or the full-on Sacred Servant, Oath of Vengeance, Warrior of Holy Light.
I also considered going for the recently released Sentinel PrC but I'd have to switch to Torag. That too would give a Holy Warrior feel.....
@Corvino
It IS a lot of dips. My build was originally straight Ranger...and then adapted to fit the needs of the group each time. It now looks like I'm paying the piper for that. And yes, our group is terribly built, and most of the individuals are beyond unoptimized in to the realm of dis functional. I personally am voting for the ability to adjust builds to work better together.
Anyone else have some input....or am I just hosed?
So I thought I'd do one last thread necro to see if anyone has some input for me, before I wave the whiteflag. We've hit lvl 9, and I'm taking Community Minded and Optimistic Gambler through the Additional Traits feat.
For my next set of tricks I'm going with Power Attack (taking Mythic Version) and Vital Strike (again Mythic version). Anyone else have ideas?
My basic fighting style was to be a reach/lockdown build utilizing trips. I took the Mythic ability Retributive Reach towards that end. It's actually worked decently as well, triggering a good number of AoO's. However, up until this point they've been fairly paltry hits.
I was going Monk 2 for the prereq free Wolf Style feats, since that'd give me free trips with my AoO's. That, and 2 levels would help boost up my saves a bit. My plan was to then return to fighter and finish out all the way to 20. However...now that I'm going Paladin, they were definitely a mistake. Unfortunately, not one that I can undo without a group agreement for rebuilds...at a cost.
Power Attack was my next Fighter feat taken. I hadn't taken it because I didn't want to up my damage and step on the toes of the damage dealers...but I've now been told not to worry about it.
Alright, so I'm currently playing in a WotR campaign. We have a larger party of 6 individuals. We just hit level 8...and it's become a crossroads for me. Here's the full breakdown of what's going on.
Current Group
- Paladin (unsure build, not a lot of damage output)
- Monk (Flowing/Sacred Mountain Monk, decent damage build)
- Rogue/Magus (building towards Arcane Trickster)
- Mystic Theurge (unsure of exact build)
- Cleric (Healbot build)
That's the group. We're heavy in melee, but without any real damage output...although the monk is starting to ramp up well. We have just hit level 8, and Mythic Tier 2.
My build has been....fluid. I had started out a Dual Style Spell-Less Ranger, going for a damage build. When I noticed how many melee we had, I figured we had damage covered, and went for a more Reach/Control build by MC'ing in to Lorewarden. Two levels of Monk of Styles for some nice trip action on AoO's through Wolf Style, and I figured I had the Reach/Control down.
But we are now at a crossroads. Our damage dealers are not...dealing much damage due to DR (many hits, but weak ones vs. few and strong). I was recently able to pick up a nice armor set...which has inspired me to follow the path it has set.
:
Armor of the Pious from the second book
So now I'm thinking that Paladin is the way I should be going. And I need to be adding some damage to my repertoire. This is where you come in. I have 12 levels of Paladin to take. How should I proceed? Go with a Oath of Vengeance, Warrior of the Holy Light...or with a Stonelord Paladin? If Stonelord, I would need a lvl of Oracle for fatigue immunity, but still. Anyone have a suggestion? Oh, here's my stats/feats:
Str: 20
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 11
Cha: 13
Traits
- Exposed to Awfulness
- Glory of Old
- Adopted (Halfling [Helpful])
Everything is pretty much set in stone unless the whole party agrees to a group rebuild, taking some unknown penalty that the GM sets....which he has guaranteed will hurt. The GM has allowed me to take Optimistic Gambler with the Additional Traits feat, so I'll be taking that at 9 (as well as Community Minded).
So from what I'm seeing, there are a few suggestions out there that I'll try to summarize and comment on. I apologize if I miss one. I'm kinda new at the manual forum coding (not sure how you guys make such nice looking posts).
Teamwork Feats (Outflank, Paired Opportunist):
Can take individually and hope the group does as well, or "other" solutions:
- Solo Tactics, Inq. 3 (Interesting choice, but means a loss of BAB and 3 lvl dip in an already multi-dip build)
- Tactician, Cavalier (An outright amazing choice, although limited in uses/day. Essentially requires a rebuild for stats, and majority of lvls in order to fully capitalize)
Other Maneuvers:
In order to not become a one trick pony and utilize further "Greater" feats.
- Bull Rush tree (Overall not a bad idea, allows for more positioning shenanigans, and already have Shield Slam. Requires continued use of shield)
- Dirty Trick (Although an amazing option, doesn't really mesh well with current build or flavor. Heavy investment needed)
Other Feats:
Other feats that can enable some form of additional AoO or maneuver trick, etc.
- Felling Smash (Requires Power Attack use, but very little else. Good overall synergy with rest of build. Noted as Standard Attack only however.
- Pushing Assault (Requires Power Attack, and use of two handed weapon. Would require changing up to different weapon selection.)
Inq.3 is an interesting idea. Not a fan of an additional loss of BAB...but it could work. Starting to look like this weird amalgamation, dip monster though. Flowing Monk could be good, but we have a pure monk who went Flowing in the party already.
So I'm working on a melee AoO lockdown build for my WotR group. Mostly standard stuff really. Extra reach, trip feats. Now I'm looking for other ways to trigger AoO's. This is what I'm working with so far:
Spell-Less Ranger 2 (dual style): TWF, and Weapon/Shield
- gains TWF and Shield Slam
Monk 2 (Many Style, Sacred Mountain)
- Toughness, IUS, and Wolf Style/Trip are the winners here
Feats of Import
- BodyGuard + Mythic Combat Reflexes
- Improved Trip/Greater
- Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
- Wolf Style/Trip
The idea is to boost my AoO hit and dmg in order to trigger the free trip using Touch of Rage (plus traits to increase duration), Mythic Ever Ready, and Retributive Reach. However, I'm not leery about trusting the whole thing to only having extra reach. I'm currently using a Dwarven chain flail one handed, and a Klar. This gives me threatening at reach, and close. I'm considering switching up to a bardiche/fauchard, and threaten with my monk unarmed attacks. The extra damage from using a weapon 2 handed could help me trigger trips through Wolf Style.
So my question is....what I'm I missing? Anyone who's played a reach/lockdown build have any tips/tricks? Suggested changes?
I did see your suggestion of Holy Vindicator, but was only able to hop on real quick during work. Wasn't able to look in to it until now. I appreciate the assistance. That's not actually a PrC I'm very familiar with, so will have to read up further to see how well it meshes with everything else.
Edit: Major, that's a heck of a build you've put up there. Some nice synergies going.
So it looks like the non-controversial options are:
Pure Paladin 20 (Sacred Servant, Rage Domain) gain rage and powers, but late
Barbarian/Cleric (rage domain) multiclass. No idea how well it'd work...would have to look at builds
Bloodrager/Paladin multiclass. Cha synergy, but wouldn't advance bloodrager powers.
This is what I get for posting from my iPad instead of doing a proper initial post. I'll update my initial post with the required links, but I'll address it here for you Antariuk.
Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Rage (Su): At 8th level, you can enter a fearsome rage, like a barbarian, for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. At 12th and 16th level, you can select one rage power. You cannot select any rage power that possesses a level requirement, but otherwise your barbarian level is equal to 1/2 your cleric level. These rounds of rage stack with any rounds of rage you might have from levels of barbarian.
Not at all. They're not being taken at the same time after all. The progression from uncontrolled rager that follows Ragathiel, in to an instrument of his Divine Justice and Wrath, is not far fetched. Starting chaotic and changing to lawful happens, however the gap between level 2 of barb, and level 10 of Paladin is a large one.
So after seeing a few threads discussing Paladins, certain tidbits caught my eye and inspired a concept...but I'm having difficulty with the execution. Here we go.
Concept: burning flame of Righteousness
Race: Tiefling
Classes: Paladin with possible dip in Barbarian and Oracle
Key Points: Fey Foundling, Rage Subdomain through Sacred Servant
My idea had been to use the Rage Power Fuelled by Vengeance and Trait Community Minded to make the rage rounds stretch, with a possible dip of Barb two in the beginning to qualify for Extra Rage Power. But....it seems like it pushes off the benefits of rage us domain too far back. Also love the interaction of Lesser Celestial Totem and lay on hands.
Any chance you guys can help clean this build up and make it functional?
I have to agree with Remy and the others. Although you should definitely look up the rules for the relevant skills, and make sure that they're being adhered to...you're essentially punishing your player.
To me what's more disturbing are the people suggesting as using the skills as simple modifiers to what the actual person is saying/RP'ing. You're not asking the fighters and barbarians to swing swords or get stabbed, you shouldn't expect your party face to be able to actually have a high Diplomacy. I can't count the number of GM's who I've encountered that make this mistake. While I don't believe an encounter should consist of "I diplomasize him <rolls d20>..." and that the face should at least try, if he has the stats to be a Mythic Face...he should BE a Mythic Face.
The Thunder and Fang was actually my inspiration originally, and why I use a Klar. When the group formed, the newer players decided they wanted to play front-line fighters...and so my role has changed. I'm keeping it as reach, since I'll be mid-field instead of front-line close range. The Klar is in case someone closes with me. Shield Slam to move them, and knock them prone.
So, here's the issue I'm working with. I've started the WotR campaign with my local store, and it's been going great. We just finished book 1, and are now level 6. However....it has become apparent that I need to change up my role.
I had built my PC as a meatstick/dps using Kobold Quarterly's Spell-Less Ranger. Took the Dual Style, and Companion Bound Archetypes. Weapon and Shield, and TWF Combat Styles. Here's the build...
Race: Dwarf
Stats: 20 pt buy
Str - 17
Dex - 10
Con - 16
Int - 8
Wis - 14
Cha - 11-->13 (+1 at lvl 4, +2 for Campaign bonus)
I'm wielding a Dorn Duergar, and a Klar. The idea was to cover both Reach and close...using Shield Slam to put them back in to edges of reach.
So this is where I'm stuck. We have two front-line fighters. A Flowing Monk with Viscous Stomp, and a Paladin. Neither are too terribly optimized, but the Monk player has taken some advice, so has a decent build. Both have decent hitpoints, but not that good (Monk Con is like 12, Pally is 12 or 14). It's become apparent that I need to help them through crowd control and such. Enabling where I can.
My build up to level 6 is pretty much set in stone. No going back. But anything past that is fair game. What I'm looking for are ways of getting additional triggers for AoO's (to make use of Paired Opportunist), and help enable my front-liners (as well as the ranged rogue going in to AT). Lorewarden looks good, and would eventually enable me to take PinDown, albeit at lvl 18 or something. Trip line of feats as well.
Help me Pathfinder Advice boards...you're my only hope.
My most memorable, and one easily adapted to your situation. My PC had died while the group was in a dungeon, descending to a dragon's lair. The next session, they came across a complex in the dungeon that had obviously been used as housing for a garrison of guards. While exploring all of the rooms, they came across more and more signs of a few current inhabitants and started catching snatches of yelling echoing off the stone walls. As they follow the sounds (a skill check of course) they made it to a makeshift camp....complete with my new PC. A naked Dwarf slowly roasting over a fire.
Now that's an entrance. Caught hell for having a charred and mostly gone beard.
It looks pretty good, although I wasn't sure whether to go the superstitious route, or with the Beast Totem route. I know superstitious is good, but so is pounce. Thank you for your help though.
I did notice there wasn't any of the bullrush feats in there. I figured Improved Bullrush in to Raging Throw would be worth it. Wit the other bonuses, the added +'s to Bullrush itself might not be worthwhile, but the extra damage could end up pretty nice.
Alright, so I'm trying to figure out how to go about a Sword and Board build. What I have, is a Dwarf using a Dorn-Duergar and Klar. I'm looking at three potential build setups:
Dual Style Spell-less Ranger: Taking both Weapon/Shield, and TWF
- Gives me a full-build of TWF(Including Rend) and the Shield Feats.
Viking Fighter: Using bonus fighter feats up to six, then switch to Rage Powers
- Allows me to mix in some rage powers, but have to sacrifice either two weapon rend, or some of the other bullrush/shield feats.
Full-on Barb: Take the bare minimum feats to shield-bash and dual wield, screw the rest
20 PB for stats.
Anyone have experience, or mathhammer to weigh in on this. I'm having a hard time deciding.
Well, either way I'm going Chain Flail master, plus using a Klar, it's just whether you think I should go for Thunder and Fang to gain the benefits earlier rather than later.
Between Chain-Flail Master, and Shield Master, I would get the benefits of Thunder and Fang...but it would take an additional 1 or 2 levels. BUT to take thunder and fang I'm "burning" two feats (although they ARE Weapon Focus...so....YMMV).
Alright, so here's the situation. My GM has okay'd the use of the Dorn-Duergar with the Thunder and Fang feat...sorta. Here's the breakdown, and my subsequent problem.
Spell-less Ranger, Dual Style Combatant Archetype
Gives up all but 1 Favored Enemy for 2 Combat Styles. Weapon and Shield and Two-Weapon Fighting
Thunder and Fang: Use Klar and Dorn-Duergar as the feat suggests, with a -2 penalty to fighting (unsure if that's in addition to the dual wield penalty, or not.)
Chain Flail Master: Removes the -2 penalty.
or
I could save two feats, and just go Chail Flail Master. I'm already planning on taking Shield Master and all that. I was going to use the Thunder and Fang feat for an early entry in to using the two weapons together, but I could just wait the extra level, and save me some feats as well. What're your thoughts? This is for the Wrath AP.
Alright, so I just found out the game store near me is going to be starting a Wrath of the Righteous AP....which means it's time for a new build. Now, ever since seeing the PrC, I've wanted to play a Champion, so here I am. I've read the Guide, and looked at a number builds...I'm just having some trouble figuring out how to go about it. Here are the elements I'm looking at.
Monk: Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Sacred Mountain, possibly Flowing Monk
Paladin: Hospitaler
Cleric: Crusader
So I'm looking at making him fairly defensive, but also rocking at least decent damage. Feat chains...
Now then my problems are that I've always rolled stats, and never done point buy. We're being given 25 pt's. I'd like to ramp up Crane Style as soon as I can, but I'm not sure how to balance the levels of the different classes to keep me effective throughout the levels. Anyone with more experience able to give me some insight? I'm looking at either going Aasimar for the whole "Vengeful Angel" schtick, or going human for earlier ramp up. What say you?
