Hi all,
I'm working on some adjustments to the Pathfinder rules for a primitive world campaign set roughly in the stone age. I want this to be a "before man" world, i.e., no humans. The main race is going to be elves, and there will be a few other options as well.
I'm going to restrict classes based on what makes sense for the time period, and also no currency - only bartering.
Any input that can be provided on things I'll need to take into consideration, or any resources of similar campaigns would be appreciated. This campaign won't be starting for quite a while so I have a lot of time to plan.
Thanks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
is this Golarion set? You could have fun playing up the Aboleths.
There are rules for primitive materials. Limiting the weapons types available will also help.
The big question for you is whether or not magic is 'primitive' as well. If it isn't full casters, which already are quite powerful at mid to high levels, will really eclipse martial characters who are gimped by poor weapons made of weak materials. If magic is less powerful, then you have quite a job figuring out how to change it.
I'd also be hesitant on the bartering. It is fine a couple times to role play that out, to illustrate the society, but after that it will probably just become a chore negotiating out how many squirrel pelts for a knapped arrowhead etc. I would let the players keep track of their easily negotiable trade good in terms of gold pieces and generally let them buy stuff at standard rates.
Have a look at the 3.5 book Dark Sun, that was sort of what you're looking for.
I certainly would remove any sort of 'formal education' from the world. With that, goes a lot of magic capabilities. Wizards, especially, would be gone. Sorcerers are potentially viable, but as mentioned above, might need to be toned down to reasonable levels to stay on par with the primitive martial weapons.
Another interesting option: Restrict players to taking NPC classes only. They are essentially what you are looking for, limited versions of the player classes. Expert is the primitive/unrefined rogue. Adept, the primitive/unrefined caster. Warrior the primitive unrefined fighter. Commoner - well, someone's gotta prepare the meals..
Because they will have a limited skill set, they would end up being more focused, so their experiences would improve their limited skill set more effectively, so I'd run with fast advancement.
the pure simplicity of it might make for a lot of fun!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah that all sounds fine. Honestly, the only classes I'd ditch would be Alchemist, Fighter, Gunslinger, Magus, and Wizard.
Monks would probably need to take the Martial Artist Archetype, and Cavaliers the Beast Rider Archetype...but everyone else is pretty much set to go. Paladins might also lose Heavy Armor Proficiency (on the basis of there not being Heavy Armor), but Paladins are solid enough they can afford to.
And I wouldn't say you need to tone classes down, magical weapons of sub-par materials ignore most of the bad effects of such materials, so it seems workable to me. Ditto armor to a large degree.
As others mention 'barter points' are not a bad idea if you want to simplify commerce, though I'm not sure they're necessary per se.
You might want to consider changing how material DR works. In a Stone Age game silver or Cold Iron aren't viable ways to get through DR. You can keep adamantine as 'sky-metal' or some such thing. I'd replace Cold Iron with Obsidian and silver with...maybe some kind of bone? Anyway, they should be things you can get.
|
I always thought the idea of a world that was like the normal fantasy world that had a world-wide catastrophe where the basic knowledges get lost as mankind struggled just to survive...people reduced to hunter/gatherer and are slowly working up to iron age. This way if the GM wants to give a really awesome treasure to a PC it could be an ancient +1 longsword made of steel! Some small amount of regular magic items survived from thousands of years ago but are exceedingly rare and never sold. It would make a currently mundane item into an item that could raise a PC into a king or make them hunted by everyone looking for a fearsome weapon to become a warlord.
|
You could allow certain archetypes of classes you would otherwise not allow.
Even if this is "before man", you could allow Neanderthals.
With primitive materials like stone and bone enchantments become additionally important for martial characters. A +3 weapon can by silver as I recall.
Given the limitation on equipment has a dramatic effect on martial characters I agree that some way to limit casters is going to be necessary.
Your problem here is going to be clerics, who can just pray for whatever spell they want.
My inclination is to suggest requiring every character to take a level of a hunter type non-caster class on the theory everyone has certain basic skills.
Casters do not multi-class well, so hopefully that will help ease the disparity.
Martials can multi-class comparatively well with a single level of another martial class.
Alternatively just up each spell by a level; level 1 spells become level 2 etc.
Occasionally let people have "efficient" spells that act as normal...
You find an iron longsword and a scroll of Burning Hands as a 1st level spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Watch those spells; wall of iron and fabricate could end up being ridonculous.
Also most PCs will have a crud ac without decent armor so you might consider throwing around some natural AC. Maybe prehistoric dwarves had heavy hair body armor and ancient elves' ears were so huge they granted Deflection bonuses.
As for the actual campaign, what are they going to be doing? Do they just move around as nomadic hunter-gatherers inventing language and fighting sabertooth tigers? Maybe they're on a quest...for fire.
As others have said, Sorcerers and Bards are about the only arcane casters that might exist in that sort of world.
If you want to tone down the magic a bit though, I'd suggest giving sorcerers the spell progression that bards normally get, so they only get up to 7th level spells, but they'd still have the same spell list. 8th and 9th level spells would just be unheard of.
As for bards, maybe give them 1/2 spell progression that sorcerers normally get, maxing at 5th level spells, or possibly removing their spell casting and substituting a full BAB progression, or more/better performances.
My main concern though regarding magic is magic items. What's available? If you're not going to give them magic items, then you're going to have to tone down the CR of encounters to compensate, because magic items make a huge difference in mid-high level.
|
|
Who said anything about toning down spell progression? It sure wasn't the OP, and seems like a bad idea to me as presented.
If you want to tone down spell progression, just forbid all 9 level casters and Summoners and you're good to go. That avoids powering down some classes while leaving others the same.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or instead of saying gold pieces, say its barter points and give everything a set barter value. Then if the players want they can still negotiate things down (or up when they fail).
Yeah - that's what I was thinking. I almost just changed the name "gold pieces" to "barter points," but then I felt like that wouldn't stick with the players because they'd just refer to it as gold. As such, I'm using barter points, but repricing the available items/goods.
Yeah that all sounds fine. Honestly, the only classes I'd ditch would be Alchemist, Fighter, Gunslinger, Magus, and Wizard.
I was thinking the alchemist could stay, but be reflavored a bit so that he's not all vials and potions. More flowers, insects, powders, etc. that result in the same abilities. Bombs might be hard to reflavor though.
Why ditch fighter? While their options would definitely be reduced, they still seem like they'd fit.
Gunslinger is definitely out. I'm pretty sure I want to eliminate Magus and Wizard as well (though as someone suggested, I'll further investigate archetypes to see if anything fits.)
As for the actual campaign, what are they going to be doing? Do they just move around as nomadic hunter-gatherers inventing language and fighting sabertooth tigers? Maybe they're on a quest...for fire.
I'm thinking of going with a sort of faction dynamic. The elf faction + allies live to the north of a narrow land bridge, to the south lives the goblin faction.
Survival will also be a key concern, so hunting, gathering, etc. At first it will probably be the main motivator, but eventually it will probably fall to off screen tasks. Dinosaurs as enemies, potential pets & mounts. Fights between different tribal groups. Lots of potential here.
Is this primitive Golarion, or some homebrew setting?
Homebrew.
As others have said, Sorcerers and Bards are about the only arcane casters that might exist in that sort of world.
Witch seemed like a good fit for this to me. As far as non-arcane, I think I'm going to skip the cleric, as it has a very church-based feel to it. I'll probably skip the paladin as well, again, very focused on an organization usually. Oracles and Druids work.
As far as other classes, the bloodrager, brawler, hunter, shaman, skald, and slayer from the ACG seem to have potential on their surfaces (will investigate further.)
My main concern though regarding magic is magic items. What's available? If you're not going to give them magic items, then you're going to have to tone down the CR of encounters to compensate, because magic items make a huge difference in mid-high level.
Magic items will definitely be toned down. Adjusting encounters for this is not a problem.
As far as powering down classes, I'd rather just ban the ones that don't fit. There's so many options available that it shouldn't be a problem. If the full casters seem to be taking over, its easy to make some adjustments on the fly.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was thinking the alchemist could stay, but be reflavored a bit so that he's not all vials and potions. More flowers, insects, powders, etc. that result in the same abilities. Bombs might be hard to reflavor though.
Eh...there's the formula book. That's very anti-primitive in flavor. If you want to skip Bombs you could just make them all go vivisectionist mechanically...but nothing gets rid of the book.
Why ditch fighter? While their options would definitely be reduced, they still seem like they'd fit.
Fighter has Armor Training as one of the main things that makes it worth taking. No good Heavy Armor makes that notably worse. They also have a small skill set, and not one inclined towards self-reliance, and a number of other counter-theme features. They scream 'disciplined soldiers from a civilized society' to me in a dozen different ways. That makes them inappropriate, IMO. Rangers, Cavaliers, and Barbarians also fill their role pretty easily, assuming you do remove them (and don't even have wasted heavy armor proficiency if going Beast Rider on the Cavalier).
Gunslinger is definitely out. I'm pretty sure I want to eliminate Magus and Wizard as well (though as someone suggested, I'll further investigate archetypes to see if anything fits.)
I don't think any Wizard or Magus Archetypes quite fit...they both come off as too civilized and scientific.
Witch seemed like a good fit for this to me. As far as non-arcane, I think I'm going to skip the cleric, as it has a very church-based feel to it. I'll probably skip the paladin as well, again, very focused on an organization usually. Oracles and Druids work.
All that sounds reasonable. I'd keep Inquisitors, too. They seem quite good flavor-wise.
As far as other classes, the bloodrager, brawler, hunter, shaman, skald, and slayer from the ACG seem to have potential on their surfaces (will investigate further.)
All those sound solid, yeah. Brawler and Slayer further reinforce the 'don't need Fighters' thing, too.
Why tone down casters?
Because I've played in this sort of setting. Melee characters can't get as good equipment, which impacts their effectiveness.
Casters are pretty much aok.
Mage armour is much more useful in a campaign where +4AC is top-tier armour.
|
|
Why tone down casters?
Because I've played in this sort of setting. Melee characters can't get as good equipment, which impacts their effectiveness.
Casters are pretty much aok.
Mage armour is much more useful in a campaign where +4AC is top-tier armour.
Eh...Bone Breastplates are a thing. That's +5 right there, and that's before magic. You're basically eliminating Heavy Armor and reducing AC by 1. That's...really not too bad for martials, all things considered.
And several of the weapons available are pretty good, too, at least if magical (Bone Earthbreaker, presumably representing using an enchanted mammoth bone as a bludgeon, I'm looking at you...)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eh...there's the formula book. That's very anti-primitive in flavor. If you want to skip Bombs you could just make them all go vivisectionist mechanically...but nothing gets rid of the book.
Good call - I didn't even think of the formula book. I'll probably skip alchemist unless a player really wants the class, at which point we'll revisit it and see if there's any way to make it work.
Fighter has Armor Training as one of the main things that makes it worth taking. No good Heavy Armor makes that notably worse. They also have a small skill set, and not one inclined towards self-reliance, and a number of other counter-theme features. They scream 'disciplined soldiers from a civilized society' to me in a dozen different ways.
Fair points. So far on a quick look through of the available armor, I reduced the list to:
Light Armor............BP.......Armor/Shield
Bonus
Padded.....................2..........+1
Quilted cloth...........25..........+1
Leather.....................2..........+2
Wooden....................4..........+3
Medium Armor
Hide...........................3..........+4
Lamellar (horn)........20..........+5
Heavy Armor
Lamellar (stone)......100..........+8
I may add some homebrew armor to give a few more medium/hevay options. Weapon options are also quite reduced.
One of the main things I'm struggling with at this point is how different primitive elves would be versus primitive humans. I don't want to treat elves exactly like humans, so any input on how to add elf-specific flavor to the primitive world would be helpful.
|
|
Good call - I didn't even think of the formula book. I'll probably skip alchemist unless a player really wants the class, at which point we'll revisit it and see if there's any way to make it work.
Yeah, that sounds like a good compromise.
Fair points. So far on a quick look through of the available armor, I reduced the list to:
Having some heavy armors around actually makes Fighter more viable mechanically (though there are still thematic issues), though I'm not sure if stone lamellar quite fits thematically speaking...
I may add some homebrew armor to give a few more medium/hevay options. Weapon options are also quite reduced.
A bone breastplate comes to mind as available medium armor (+5 AC). Ditto bone scale mail (+4 AC). Leather lamellar, while light, also has little justification to not exist. Light and Heavy wooden shields should also, obviously, exist.
One of the main things I'm struggling with at this point is how different primitive elves would be versus primitive humans. I don't want to treat elves exactly like humans, so any input on how to add elf-specific flavor to the primitive world would be helpful.
Maybe have all their equipment be wood and bone? Some magically hardened, some normal, but no stone tools or weapons at all. That fits with the 'nature' association Elves have and is viable mechanically for the most part, and differentiates them from those who do use stone.
A high reliance on arcane magic (especially witchcraft in this case) is always solid Elven flavor, regardless of the era. It's also, again, mechanically solid.
Maybe have them use a lot of exotic animals, possibly magically controlled, as well. Using dinosaurs or megafauna as beasts of burden is a very cool flavor that definitely doesn't fit with tribal humans as a rule.
Maybe have all their equipment be wood and bone? Some magically hardened, some normal, but no stone tools or weapons at all. That fits with the 'nature' association Elves have and is viable mechanically for the most part, and differentiates them from those who do use stone.
That's a good idea. Separating stone out could serve as good differentiation.
Don't forget things like Stoneplate, Bullette Armor, and Dragonhide.
Stoneplate won't fit this world - dwarves either don't exist or haven't been discovered yet (not sure.) I'm not familiar with bullette armor, but dragonhide will be available later in the campaign. Definitely not something the PCs will be able to purchase, but if they take a dragon down, then they'll have access to it.
The Appraise skill would have more use in a world without currency. Haggling can still be a charisma based affair, but the haggler's perceived value of whatever they are trading is very important.
One thing I would say is that in a primative world, magic as it exists in the core rules, is faaaar to refined and organized to fit. Even if you ditch wizards, the spells themselves are way to specific, and too detail oriented. In a world without wizard colleges studying and crafting spells does magificant mansion make sense? Does teleport?
I would use something like the Riven Mage from rogue genius games and its more basic form of magic in place of normal magic in the game. Though it would require some expansion to be the complete form of magic for a campaign.
|
|
One thing I would say is that in a primative world, magic as it exists in the core rules, is faaaar to refined and organized to fit. Even if you ditch wizards, the spells themselves are way to specific, and too detail oriented. In a world without wizard colleges studying and crafting spells does magificant mansion make sense? Does teleport?
I dunno, Teleport is pretty simple conceptually. "I am one place, I want to be another." Simple.
Still, I'd agree in general. I'd vet each spell on an individual basis for this sort of thing, and modify or ban those that don't work well thematically. Should be easy enough on a Witch or spontaneous caster. Prepared casters are trickier, but Druid and Ranger seem to be the only ones of those you're going with, and their lists are likely to be less problematic.
One issue that leaps immediately to mind is spells with a monetary cost, such as Raise Dead. Figuring out exactly how much such things cost in materials is very much an issue and one that should be considered. The same goes for the costs involved in crafting feats.
One possible way to solve some of these issues would be the Words of Power system, but that's a bit complex and might feel even more technological/mechanistic (though I'm not sure it is).
One thing I would say is that in a primative world, magic as it exists in the core rules, is faaaar to refined and organized to fit. Even if you ditch wizards, the spells themselves are way to specific, and too detail oriented. In a world without wizard colleges studying and crafting spells does magificant mansion make sense? Does teleport?I dunno, Teleport is pretty simple conceptually. "I am one place, I want to be another." Simple.
Dimension door sure (which is a riven spell), but teleport, requires in my mind a sort of learned undertanding of geography, and just seems 'advanced' to me. Ultimiately its up to you, I'm just throwing in the idea of using basic magic in the form or riven magic. You dont have 30 different attack spells, you have bolt and blast. You can make bigger or smaller bolts and blasts. And if you are fire specialized, your bolts and blasts are fire. Cold specialized? You get the idea. It cuts alot of the utility and game changing nature of magic out, but I think that makes alot of sense for a primative world. I am slowly working on a post apocalyptic game, where i'll be using an expanded version of riven magic I am working on, and in my mind I'd want to explore the same sort of unrefined feel in a primative world game.
Still, I'd agree in general. I'd vet each spell on an individual basis for this sort of thing, and modify or ban those that don't work well thematically. Should be easy enough on a Witch or spontaneous caster. Prepared casters are trickier, but Druid and Ranger seem to be the only ones of those you're going with, and their lists are likely to be less problematic.
Even the druid and ranger lists are a bit, precise. Sure they are naturey but they still have a sort of 'techniques passed on for 100's of generations' feel to them. Again, its up to you. But definately take a look at magic. If working out spell by spell is good for you go for it. I just think that seems like alot of work.
One issue that leaps immediately to mind is spells with a monetary cost, such as Raise Dead. Figuring out exactly how much such things cost in materials is very much an issue and one that should be considered. The same goes for the costs involved in crafting feats.
I think i'd switch any costly material with a ritual sacrifice. Want to raise dead? You will have to slaughter a bunch of (equal value in your barter system) of valuable live stock, or burn valuable furs to fuel the spell. Something like that. But the key will be establishing a point of comparison between listed prices in game and barter prices.
One possible way to solve some of these issues would be the Words of Power system, but that's a bit complex and might feel even more technological/mechanistic (though I'm not sure it is).
Words of power is pretty good. I havent used it alot though, so I cant really comment.
|
|
I am still not getting the whole "no spellcasting" thing.
Primitive World does not need to low/no magic.
Heck, it could be a time of chaotic surges of raw magic.
Sure, you ban a few spells, classes and archetypes, but there doesn't seem to be a need to shut down so much spellcasting.
What the heck am I missing?
I am still not getting the whole "no spellcasting" thing.
Primitive World does not need to low/no magic.
Heck, it could be a time of chaotic surges of raw magic.
Sure, you ban a few spells, classes and archetypes, but there doesn't seem to be a need to shut down so much spellcasting.
What the heck am I missing?
Vancian magic as a concept doesnt fit a primative society. Spells in the dying earth were extremely complicated formulae that were written down and literally memorized to get a very specific effect. This involves training, writing, and a kind of culture of exchange of information. Remember in previous editions, alot of spells had specific wizard's names in the spells. The idea that a spell is literally designed, and then written down and taught to others (which is the foundation of vancian magic) doesnt, in my mind, work in a primative society.
Each spell has a very explicate effect, and ONLY that effect. Everyones spell behaves exactly the same in that specific way. To me that is a sign of a very well developed culture of magic. The only real world corellary I can think of is things like modern computer programing. Where there are widely shared solutions to common problems are shared and discussed globally. So that large portions of programmers address similar problems in similar fashions. And when a new solution is found, its shared and is eventually adopted as a whole (if its good).
If there wasnt this kind of global communication, everyones spells should either be extremely basic (big bolts of fire are big bolts of fire no matter who throws them) or they would all be a little different. Why would 2 primaitve magic users trying to project force at the enemy, both summon a specific number of un-erring small missiles. Wouldnt one person summon a single big bolt, one person summon a line, one person summon multiple small bolts of force? Is there some universal law that '1st level' force attack spells need to come in the form of multiple unerring bolts?
In a world with global culture and a tradition of magic, thats simple. A wizard figured out how to do magic missile way back when, its efficient, effective, and its shared between wizards generation after generation. If there is no such communication and tradition, it makes essentially no sense for everyones 1st level force attack spell to behave identically.
You see a problem with reflavoring?
Its not a reflavoring issue. The actual mechanics strongly represent this flavor. Its not like puting a different skin on it will change the fact that everyones magic missile behaves identically. One could be stars, and one could be blue balls of force, they still behave identically.
And for me at least its important for the feel of the mechanics to inform the flavor. And not have the flavor simply stapled over whats happening in game. If I am playing a primal mage who doesnt have a long tradition of wizards to learn from, I want to feel that way when I'm playing. I dont want to just paint an orange red and call it an apple.
Its not a reflavoring issue. The actual mechanics strongly represent this flavor. Its not like puting a different skin on it will change the fact that everyones magic missile behaves identically. One could be stars, and one could be blue balls of force, they still behave identically.
Definitely agree with this. I want the players to feel like this is actually a totally different type of campaign rather than feeling like it is simply Pathfinder but earlier.
That means changing the available weapons, armor, changing the available races, changing the technology, and yes, changing the magic.
I think I'll review all of the available spells, remove ones that seem like they would not fit in such a world, and then perhaps add some to add flavor.
I'm definitely not aiming for no magic, but I also don't want magic available that would completely invalidate much of the theme of a primitive land. As an example, a spell that creates food or water is not going to fit very well, as finding/securing food and water is one of the themes.
Spells that allow you to rest out in the wild lands without much chance of being interrupted (think rope trick) will probably go as well, because one of the themes is that going off on your own is incredibly dangerous. Sticking together is critical.
It will be a lot of work, but that's okay as I have a long time before this campaign will launch.
Read "The Land That Time Forgot" and "The People That Time Forgot" by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Should be available for free to read online. Also read his Pellucidar series, which is set in a stone age environment at the center of the hollow Earth.
What about using the Words of Power spellcasting variant?
Looks promising. I'll have to really read it in-depth to get the hang of it.
Thanks.
|
|
Instead of things like Scrolls, you could use Magical Tattoos.
Also, in addition to things like Potions/Oils, you could use Magical Foods.
|
|
The Elves/Humans thingy:
I see the humans as more neanderthals, hulking and brutish where as I see the elves as more dexterous and lithe, perhaps swinging through tree (brachiation) or dropping down on all fours to run like cats or something or maybe something similar to how the alien race in Avatar is. A bit of all the dextrous and lithe stuff rolled up.
|
|
The Elves/Humans thingy:
I see the humans as more neanderthals, hulking and brutish where as I see the elves as more dexterous and lithe, perhaps swinging through tree (brachiation) or dropping down on all fours to run like cats or something or maybe something similar to how the alien race in Avatar is. A bit of all the dextrous and lithe stuff rolled up.
I already linked to the rules on Neanderthals.
Its not a reflavoring issue. The actual mechanics strongly represent this flavor. Its not like puting a different skin on it will change the fact that everyones magic missile behaves identically. One could be stars, and one could be blue balls of force, they still behave identically.Definitely agree with this. I want the players to feel like this is actually a totally different type of campaign rather than feeling like it is simply Pathfinder but earlier.
That means changing the available weapons, armor, changing the available races, changing the technology, and yes, changing the magic.
I think I'll review all of the available spells, remove ones that seem like they would not fit in such a world, and then perhaps add some to add flavor.
I'm definitely not aiming for no magic, but I also don't want magic available that would completely invalidate much of the theme of a primitive land. As an example, a spell that creates food or water is not going to fit very well, as finding/securing food and water is one of the themes.
Spells that allow you to rest out in the wild lands without much chance of being interrupted (think rope trick) will probably go as well, because one of the themes is that going off on your own is incredibly dangerous. Sticking together is critical.
It will be a lot of work, but that's okay as I have a long time before this campaign will launch.
well like i said, riven magic does all of this immediately. There are only basic functions of spells. There are no 'fix the problem' spells like create food and water, or teleport or even fly. Its a big departure from standard magic. But its a hell of alot less work then reviewing every spell in the game.
|
|
Maybe a "No casting until 4th level" rule.
Basically, no PC can cast spells (Spell-like and supernatural excluded) until they reach 4th level.
Even full casters will have to wait. Their other abilities should be available though.
This makes martials a bigger draw, and being a caster a struggle, but eventually worth it.
Once your PCs start to get to a higher levels, this constant struggle to find food and shelter will simply be a grating irritating thing, that will be no fun for anyone.
If surviving is all they ever do, then when do they get to be heroes?