Today I Learned: You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus.
Which diminishes my plans for an Abyssal Bloodrager or a Beast Totem Barbarian, because after level 5 you won't gain any additional attacks. I'm stumped to find a feat or special ability which breaks this restriction and allows a player to gain additional attacks for a high base attack bonus. Unless Vestigial Arm somehow allows this, but it doesn't appear to.
So are natural attacks worthless after level 5 for a full-BAB class?
Keep in mind that all your natural attacks are at full bab, whilst each iterative is an additional -5. At 16th level a barbarian's bab is 16/11/6/1. In play, you often find that the last two swings are only hitting on nat 20s. Meanwhile a guy with 3 primary natural attacks is attacking at 16/16/16. Much more likely to hit.
Not saying natural attacks are better. There are tradeoffs. Amulets of mighty fists are expensive and can't be enchanted as much as a weapon.
It's certainly not worthless, though.
Nope, just diminished in capacity. Thats why the druid is stronh in melee from 4-10 but then starts pretty heavily falling behind other martial classes. Because they aren't getting more attacks, but they had more when other players couldn't have more.
If I'm playing a martial with natural attacks I try and just get a bite if possible. Still use a weapon and have a secondary bite attack.
Granted, I've seen some pretty devastating beast totem barbs in pfs(usually they find a way to get a bite, so claw/claw/bite) but I suspect they get weaker at higher levels, especially past 10.
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The workaround is getting more Natural Attacks.
A Barbarian, within his class features, can get up to 3 (even though Animal Fury is pretty bad).
Certain races can take this to ludicrous extremes.
Take a Furyborn Skinwalker.
They get 2 hoof attacks while transformed.
2 claw attacks from Beast Totem.
A bite attack from Animal Fury.
And you can get a Gore attack from the Helm of the Mammoth Lord.
All, bar Animal Fury, are made at full BaB. Essentially, while a level 11 Barbarian is swinging for 11/6/1, you're swinging for 11/11/11/11/11/6.
You're right in thinking that natural attacks become less advantageous as BAB hits +6 and continues to increase, because you do not recieve iterative attacks. However, saying they are worthless may be a bit extreme.
There isn't anything to my knowledge that will allow you to break the restriction on 1 attack per natural attack, with one slight semi-exception. A monk, with Feral Combat Training can substitute in a natural attack to use with his flurry of blows. And, the natural attacks benefit from the bonuses that the monk can apply to his unarmed strikes.
However, this is really only helpful for druid/monk builds where in the character wildshapes into something with a very large damage die attack (usually a single attack) and proceeds to use FCT and Flurry of Blows to execute the attack and much larger number of times in a round than normally possible.
For your character, this wont really be useful.
Also, the value of the natural attacks depends on how much natural attacks you can stack together on your character. If you only have two claws? Yeah, they're not maintaining a lot of value at level 6. If you have 5? That's the number of attack a 20th level two handed attacking character gets with haste. And you wont have iterative penalties.
Also, the value of the natural attacks depends on how much natural attacks you can stack together on your character. If you only have two claws? Yeah, they're not maintaining a lot of value at level 6. If you have 5? That's the number of attack a 20th level two handed attacking character gets with haste. And you wont have iterative penalties.
As a general rule of thumb, you are doing great if you have more natural attacks than you have iteratives. When they are equal....well, it is about on par, and depends a lot on the kind of build you are using.
If you are a class that relies a lot on static bonuses to damage, then the natural attacks are great because, even with power attack, they are still likely going to hit and get that damage in.
Rogues in particular can get by with bite/claw/claw their entire career since it is a similar number of attacks they could expect to hit if they used TWF (as in, the 13/13/8/8 attacks, with the rest forgotten because...seriously? they never really do much), and it does not deal with TWF penalties and they all hit with full BAB, meaning that they are hedging their bets on a more reliable set of attacks.
High-level Aasimar can also get 2 wing attacks if they pick the right feats, in addition to being able to use said wings to fly.
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All perfectly RAW:
Aasimar summoner 18/ranger 2 to pick up Angelic Blood/Angelic Flesh/Angel Wings/Metallic Wings (two secondary wing attacks), Aspect (Limbs/Arms for a second set of fully functional arms), Greater Aspect (6 Tentacles), and natural weapon combat style for Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast; one pair of claws); you probably want to pick up Multiattack, as well. Add a helm of the mammoth lord for a gore attack, talons of Leng for a second pair of claws on the second set of arms/hands, and a wyvern cloak for a tail attack.
4 claws (primary), 2 wings (secondary), 6 tentacles (secondary), 1 gore (primary), 1 tail (primary). There may be a way to squeeze in another natural attack or two, but 14 (6 primary, 8 secondary) available at all times (without any rule-twisting or more than a 2 level dip in one other class) should be sufficient (at +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13 with Multiattack). As long as the character has a 13+Dex, they also qualify for the Multiweapon Fighting feat.
Also note that this is the summoner, not the eidolon (which is still limited to 6 natural attacks for a summoner 18)
I love natural attacks for PCs. Multiple attacks at low levels without taking negatives for them, like Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting, is very nice; it's pretty easy to end up with at least claw, claw, bite from race and class features. At high levels you may end up with less attacks overall than a manufactured weapon user (but not necessarily depending on your class and/or how hard you try to maximize your attack number), but all of yours are at full BAB.
I think the real downside to nat attacks is the inability to get 1.5 from strength and power attack, but you can't have everything. Concerning the Amulet of Mighty Fists, the +5 max enhancement is disappointing but the price is a lot more fair for the natural attack user than it is for the poor fist fighter. Being able to add weapon properties without a +1 also helps to mitigate the cost for certain builds: Looking at you, Barbarian with Furious on his amulet.
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Snag Dragon Style/Ferocity and Feral Combat Training and you're good to go.
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There are some Monk/Druid builds focused on natural attacks who can get 12d8 natural attacks before Vital Strike. In fact, Natural Weapons are the best things to do with Vital Strike, with lower crit range[so you gain less from a bunch of attacks], and higher base damage.
Also, once you have 3-4, you are superior to iterative attacks, because of the attack bonus.
Natural attacks are very top heavy, but for reasons mentioned (all at full BAB), take a long time to fall off.
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Not remotely worthless, as people have noted, you just need multiples. A bite, claw, claw routine will give you 3 attacks all at full BAB, compare a 10th level fighter doing that that to one with a two handed sword. The 2H fighters first attack hits as often but does more damage, however his 2nd and especially 3rd attack stand a far greater miss chance. Whereas the natural weapon fighter is far more likely to hit with all his attacks, this more than makes up for his lower dice damage, and hell, 3 natural attacks by 10th is distinctly pedestrian, 4 or 5 is easily doable with a few magic items and some forethought.
Alchemists and maguses have a particularly distinct advantage in the natural weapon category.
They get access to monstrous physique and company.
There are some Monk/Druid builds focused on natural attacks who can get 12d8 natural attacks before Vital Strike. In fact, Natural Weapons are the best things to do with Vital Strike, with lower crit range[so you gain less from a bunch of attacks], and higher base damage.
Also, once you have 3-4, you are superior to iterative attacks, because of the attack bonus.
It's not even hard to get 4. A Tiefling or Tengu can have bite/claw/claw/hair right off the bat if they start with a level of White-Haired Witch. Going into Lunar Oracle gets you a gore attack, or you can go Barb/Alchemist for Pounce and buy a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. That's more attacks in a round than Mr. Falchion will ever get, and all of them at full BAB.
I like natural attacks.
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Rogues in particular can get by with bite/claw/claw their entire career since it is a similar number of attacks they could expect to hit if they used TWF (as in, the 13/13/8/8 attacks, with the rest forgotten because...seriously? they never really do much), and it does not deal with TWF penalties and they all hit with full BAB, meaning that they are hedging their bets on a more reliable set of attacks.
I did this with my Tengu in PFS. At 15th level now he's doing 1d3+8d6+11 using a +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists and Power Attack. That's ~40 damage a hit, ~160 damage on a Hasted full attack.
Combat Reflexes, Opportunist, and Step Up and Strike pile on even more damage.
Short answer: no. They are quite nice.
Remember that so long as you use weapons that do not use the limbs in question that you can make all of your natural attacks as secondary attacks in ADDITION to your weapon attacks.
This is beyond good if you are like one of my players who is obsessed with the Rogue class. That said there are plenty of builds that simply capitalize on Natural attacks being at full BAB as people have mentioned above.