If I used the term "Toon" rather than PC, what would you say? What arguments would you use for or against it?
Thus far, one of the more convincing arguments I've heard is that using lingo from a different type of game (in this case, MMOs) could cause confusion; however, this particular word doesn't seem all that egregious—most people, even having not played an MMO, could pick up from the surrounding context that "Toon"=PC.
Thoughts?
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My star Quarterback has good passing stats.
Really, it could be a group that call all their PCs Motherf*cker, instead of PC, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate for every group.
If it's good for your group, then good for you.
Not talking inside your group? Stick with the appropriate terminology.
That's a point I can get behind, bbt.
But why can't "toon" be part of the appropriate terminology? Why "murderhobo," but not "toon"?
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I would say that a grey and white hare enters the scene, munching on a carrot and asks you "Eh... What's Up Doc?".
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I personally dislike the term. To me "toons" are the animated characters in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I tend to not use MMO terms as I do not, nor have I ever, played MMOs. In fact, I don't even use the term PC outside of the boards. When talking amongst my group I will say "the party" or refer to the characters by name. It does irk me a bit when people use MMO terms, but I grin and bare it. I know it is something stupid to get worked up about, so I just roll with it, using my own preferred terminology while allowing others to use theirs.
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If I used the term "Toon" rather than PC, what would you say? What arguments would you use for or against it?
(snip)
Thoughts?
As far as I'm concerned, "Toon" has a pejorative baggage when applied to Table Top RPG. It ain't that insulting nor discriminating, nor do I buy into the "tabletop RPG is superior to MMO or computer RPG"; it just isn't a term I deem appropriate, and one that doesn't sound very "serious" (as serious a hobby can be).
Let's just say I would quickly loose interest in a conversation using Toon instead of character, or PC. Don't have much argument other than "please use the right lingo for the right context".
For the records, while I dislike Toon, I find Murderhobo much more insulting and revolting. What people do with their characters ain't my business, but it doesn't need become the definition of what my character is (or any character must be).
'findel
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That's a point I can get behind, bbt.
But why can't "toon" be part of the appropriate terminology? Why "murderhobo," but not "toon"?
The short and general answer is that it hasn't reached critical acceptance mass yet. I refuse to use words like "Selfie" and "Bing" even though I understand what they are.
The more specific answer is probably that "murderhobo" arises from tropes inside of P&P RPGs and people either think of it as true or as a wink at a certain gaming style. "Toon" as far as I know is referring to how MMO characters look kind of cartoonish (if there's an alternate etymology, I'd be interested like a big dork) and that doesn't have a direct link to P&P. As a result, those who think our conversations are taking too much of a cue from MMOs see toon as further encroachment.
So yes, it is perfectly understandable. It just rubs some of us the wrong way.
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If I had to venture a guess, I would say that negative reactions to using toon to refer to characters in Pathfinder (and probably other tabletops) is a symptom of the 3.5-4e edition wars. One of the major complaints that came up again and again was that 4e was felt more akin to a tabletop MMO than a PPRPG. Regardless of whether that complaint was valid or not, it was prevalent, and since toon comes from MMO jargon, I would say that people became more adverse to its being used in PPRPGs.
Personally, I don't care if people I play with use it because I know some of them come from MMO backgrounds, although it does make me automatically expect them to enjoy combat and character builds more than RP. The constant appearance of debates over the Stormwind Fallacy are evidence enough that a lot of people have adverse reactions to players favoring "role-play" over "roll-play," so when someone says toon there's a good chance someone else will have a knee-jerk negative reaction to it.
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I personally dislike the term. To me "toons" are the animated characters in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I tend to not use MMO terms as I do not, nor have I ever, played MMOs. In fact, I don't even use the term PC outside of the boards. When talking amongst my group I will say "the party" or refer to the characters by name. It does irk me a bit when people use MMO terms, but I grin and bare it. I know it is something stupid to get worked up about, so I just roll with it, using my own preferred terminology while allowing others to use theirs.
I play MMOs and never ever referred to my character as "toon".
Having animated avatar is not enough to qualify as toon - it must be a specific array of styles, which is rare for MMOs (at least those I play).
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This is the only place I hear the term "toon." The ONLY place. Everywhere else, it's PC or character.
For me, it is not appropriate terminology. "Toon" is a reference to cartoons. There's a tabletop RPG called Toon, where you play, you guessed it, cartoon characters. I've played quite a bit of it. So when you start talking about toons, you are talking about characters in the Toon RPG. You are quite specifically not talking about Pathfinder characters, unless you're using Pathfinder rules for a Toon game.
Besides, what's so bad about using the terminology that has already existed for decades? What does changing it give us? How does it make things better?
ETA: Also, toon does not hold the same feeling as murderhobo. Murderhobo is a reference to how adventurers typically behave, but not all PCs would be murderhobos--some hold bases of operation, some perform non-murderous activities, all sorts of things. You wouldn't see someone ask, "Can someone help me optimize my murderhobo?" or "I'm building a murderhobo for this campaign, but I don't know if I want ninja or alchemist levels." No, they'll say PC. Or, sometimes, (and in my view, inappropriately), toon.
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it's fine, but expect table variation
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Toon is short for cartoon, which refers to an animated character. Characters in tabletop RPGs aren't animated, hence it's a misnomer.
I'm a stickler for accurate language.
That said, if you insist on calling your character a "toon" at the table, I'd be mildly annoyed, but I could live with it.
Start calling monsters "mobs," however, and you'll quickly find it to your disadvantage. If you wanted to cast your spell at the troll, then you should have designated the troll. Since the only "mob" on the map is the crowd of fleeing villagers, well...
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I like pyro murderhobo better.
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If I used the term "Toon" rather than PC, what would you say? What arguments would you use for or against it?
Thus far, one of the more convincing arguments I've heard is that using lingo from a different type of game (in this case, MMOs) could cause confusion; however, this particular word doesn't seem all that egregious—most people, even having not played an MMO, could pick up from the surrounding context that "Toon"=PC.
Thoughts?
Personally, it sets off warning bells for me that the person using the term may look at their character as an in-game avatar or a playing piece in a game, rather than as a person with their own personality and story. Nothing wrong with them wanting that, but it alerts me that the two of us may be a bad mix to combine in the same game.
I don't mind humor in a RPG. It's great when it keeps us laughing at ourselves and as a reminder not to get so serious that we stomp away from the table because too much personal pride, etc. becomes bound up in the character.
That said, it should be done carefully and to the group.
Humor is important.
It can be a great tool in maintaining important, social-positive aspects at the table. Using it to for example, divert someone's rising anger that their Uberwizard Dared Roll a 2 OMG...can bring the player and table "back to base" as it were.
...but humor is subjective. Use carefully, use it well, and tailor it to the group, yet never think it is unimportant.
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I like online games, administering two small ones, and don't have any problem with everyone referring to our fighter as a "tank." But I wouldn't expect to enjoy GMing for someone who called their character a "toon."
Among my group, characters are referred to by their names or addressed as their players ("I move up to the stone giant," "Could you move in to flank?" and so forth).
Speaking to outsiders, the characters are referred to by race or class ("My dwarf," "my cleric," or "our fighter" as I said above). The phrase "I played" gets thrown around a lot and longer stories tend to lapse into the first person.
So even "my character" or "my PC" sounds a bit strange to me. We usually only use those while building the characters, before they have any set traits. If I hear them from someone else, I expect them to start talking about their character's backstory and mechanical construction.
At best, "toon" is a synonym there. But, in my experience, toons never stop being toons. They're toons from creation to max level and everywhere in between.
So, to me, those toons will always feel incomplete. I'm sure a good enough roleplayer could overcome that, but they're coming in at a deficit and I wouldn't expect good things.
On the other hand, if someone referred to "my murderhobo" I'd probably laugh. Because it's hopefully a joke.
Cheers!
Landon
I find 'toon' slightly annoying. It is just not the correct term for this hobby. Just like it bugs me that people say 'ideal' when the mean 'idea.' Or even worse when they say 'literally' when they mean 'figuratively.' That one really bugs me.
But that is probably mostly my obsessive compulsive behavior kicking in.
Many people find it to be a bit insulting or demeaning. Similar to when a person talks about someone playing with 'dolls' if he collects action figures. That part of it doesn't really bother me, but I know it does some others.
Some others feel it implies a lack of role playing and a concentration on hack-n-slash roll playing. Not sure how I feel about that aspect.
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I don't care for the term, myself. I've heard it used outside of these boards, primarily on text based games from players of MMOs. I haven't run across it in table top, and like some others I'd be annoyed but move on. My character is not a toon, it is a character.
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The term threw me off the first time I heard it; I thought they were talking literally about a cartoon of some sort. But after it became apparent they were discussing a PC I had no real issue with it. I wouldn't use it myself, because it doesn't sound right. But who cares if anyone else uses it? As long as your language is clearly understood you are fine.
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I would say ...what...I have never heard that term before and ...what...are you talking about buggs bunny or something?
Obviously, I am not a big MMO player but I am pretty plugged into the gaming community so if I haven't ever even heard the term I would say that it doesn't have the saturation in general to be widely used and understood.
Maybe I am just too old in which case I say, "Get off my lawn!".
So a lot the responses thus far seem to be saying that if "toon" were heard in a face-to-face game, it would be laughable to some, and a warning sign to others. I would agree; like most other groups, I think, my group refers to their PCs by name or race or class, not as "my character," or "my PC."
But here, on the internet? I really don't see the problem with it, beyond one of possibly unfamiliar terminology. Think about it—the only difference between a PC and a "toon" (so long as we aren't referring to the game, Toon, is that one is computer animated, the other is not. MMORPGs are still RPGs, after all; the player still levels up, makes ability choices, makes appearance and RP choices, etc.
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I don't see what the issue is. I have more important things to worry about than whether someone uses the "correct" term for their character.
I may be petty, but I'm not quite petty enough to be annoyed by someone's usage of a perfectly valid word in context.
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I've never heard it used. If I did, I'd probably go 'Huh? Oh, you mean character', and carry on. 'Toon' does of course bring to mind 'cartoon', and since I was born in '85, that means a lot of cheesy old shows.
Speaking out of character, my group does use terms like tank, kite and DPS (yes, DPS). We don't care if it's MMO talk or whatever. It's fine.
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Think about it—the only difference between a PC and a "toon" [...] is that one is computer animated, the other is not.
Actually, that assessment would be ignoring the tendency for many MMO players to treat their toon as an avatar of themselves rather than how many tabletop players tend to treat their PC as a separate personality from their own. It's for that reason that I find "toon" objectionable and view it as a red flag.
Thankfully I've only had 1 friend who used the term (in regards to their PC), but they did indeed tend to roleplay their PCs' personalities much less fully than my non-MMO-playing friends.
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The aforementioned wabbit was statted in Dragon #48 1/2...an April Fools' edition.
I'm pretty sure I shouldn't post a link to a PDF of that magazine. But sweet Aroden's cheeks, I realized I own this issue. :D (Yay--I am old, but also cool.)
Oh, something about toons? I wouldn't use it, but whatever works in your game.
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I agree with pretty much everyone here ... toon just sounds dopey and brings to mind Bugs Bunny, not a character or PC. If one of my players used that term, I'd politely ask him to stop. I also get annoyed when a player says he has 35 health left instead of 35 hit points.
As someone up thread said, I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to things like correct termanolgy, proper grammer etc.
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Heh ... I was in a restaurant the other day with some friends and the waitress asked "What can I get youze (I have no idea how one would even spell it) to drink?" It drove me nuts ...
Back on topic ... if toon is a MMO term, then fine, use it then. It's not a tabletop term, so insisting on using it when playing or talking about a tabletop game either rude, uninformed or insulting, depending on the intent.
It's kind of like a person continually saying his fighter swings his phaser instead of his sword because he plays a lot of Star Trek RPGs and he's used to saying phaser ...
I will add that I'd never heard the term "murderhobo" until recently, on these very boards. Now it's become a big joke around our gaming table. Someone will pull off something fantastic/incredibly lucky/incredibly heroic, and then, after the celebration and congratulations, someone else will chime in with something like "Now kill the noncombatants. Never know if one or more will gain class levels later and come after us for vengeance. Oh, and cut them open too. They might have swallowed something valuable. We're professional murderhobos, after all."
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Personally, "toon" bugs me in MMO's too.
I agree with Mikaze on this one. I have heard that term used a lot when playing MMORPGs, and it just grinds on my nerves. Same with "mob" when referring to a monster/opponent. It is bad enough with MMOs, and to me, it is even worse when used in reference to table-top rpgs.
I have no problem with PC when referring to a character, as it's just like NPC. I usually refer to my characters as "my (class)" or "my (race + class)".
I enjoy MMORPGs, and I enjoy tabletop RPGs. I dislike the MMO terms when used in MMOs (though tank, dps, and healer I have no problem with when used in describing things), but I irrationally hate MMO terms when used in tabletop rpgs.
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I always thought 'mob' was a collective noun for fightable entities.
"There's a mob of monsters over there."
I'd say "we're playing Pathfinder not Toon, but I've got the books if everyone wants to play that for a session"
I played a Tasmanian Devil with my wife playing a Marvin-esque Martian years ago. It's a great 1 shot game.
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I always thought 'mob' was a collective noun for fightable entities.
"There's a mob of monsters over there."
As someone that used to tinker with MUD programming, it only really made sense back then because it defined something that was coded to be mobile as opposed to a statically placed object, with the only real differences between objects and actual living creatures being that the latter had health and the means to hit you.
In RPGs, it... just doesn't make sense (other than as the aforementioned collective noun), any more than I'd call the rules for a magic item their "script" or "procedure call".
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If I had to venture a guess, I would say that negative reactions to using toon to refer to characters in Pathfinder (and probably other tabletops) is a symptom of the 3.5-4e edition wars. One of the major complaints that came up again and again was that 4e was felt more akin to a tabletop MMO than a PPRPG. Regardless of whether that complaint was valid or not, it was prevalent, and since toon comes from MMO jargon, I would say that people became more adverse to its being used in PPRPGs.
Personally, I don't care if people I play with use it because I know some of them come from MMO backgrounds, although it does make me automatically expect them to enjoy combat and character builds more than RP. The constant appearance of debates over the Stormwind Fallacy are evidence enough that a lot of people have adverse reactions to players favoring "role-play" over "roll-play," so when someone says toon there's a good chance someone else will have a knee-jerk negative reaction to it.
Actually I think the hate of MMO terms started before the E-war. People having been blaming videogames and MMO on destroying role playing for some time. When 4E launched it was a ready made insult to tear the game apart for h4ters.
Personally we dont refer to our characters as PC or toon or anything else. If my PCs name is comax then I refer to the character as comax. We are not complete immersion-ists but we like to keep at least some going at the table. The only time we would use PC or toon is if we were having a conversation about the game in general.
the MMO concept of Party Roles has existed in Tabletop games for 4 or 5 decades. 4E merely made the roles as blatantly obvious as an MMO or JRPG would.
in TTRPGs you always had
the heavily armored guy whom smashed things and drew enemy fire, whether you call him the tank, warrior or distraction, it doesn't matter, this guy was merely the one whom waded through enemies to draw their undivided attention away from the caster, not only do they need to hit hard to focus the attention, but they need a hint of mobility, attack speed, and well, zone denial to keep the enemy focused on them, though MMOs give these guys shields, they do better on the tabletop with polearms.
the guy whom watches health bars and keeps their allies away from death while he or she enhances their prowess. generally mobile and while tough in the tabletop, they are quite fragile everywhere else, typically associated with a religious figure of some kind, such as a priest or shaman, or with white magic as well.
the guy whose purpose is to scout, deal with the traps the party doesn't wish to be injured by, bluff the guards, ambush the enemy at their weakest, and tell stories about the party's accomplishments, usually a rogue, bard or something like that.
the guy whose purpose is to drop weakened enemy minions, control the battlefield and keep a stable supply of minions to assist as needed. usually does it through magic and has some generic word like wizard, sorcerer, warlock or arcanist.
i think i defined the roles as assumed since 1e.
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the MMO concept of Party Roles has existed in Tabletop games for 4 or 5 decades. 4E merely made the roles as blatantly obvious as an MMO or JRPG would.
in TTRPGs you always had
the heavily armored guy whom smashed things and drew enemy fire, whether you call him the tank, warrior or distraction, it doesn't matter, this guy was merely the one whom waded through enemies to draw their undivided attention away from the caster, not only do they need to hit hard to focus the attention, but they need a hint of mobility, attack speed, and well, zone denial to keep the enemy focused on them, though MMOs give these guys shields, they do better on the tabletop with polearms.
the guy whom watches health bars and keeps their allies away from death while he or she enhances their prowess. generally mobile and while tough in the tabletop, they are quite fragile everywhere else, typically associated with a religious figure of some kind, such as a priest or shaman, or with white magic as well.
the guy whose purpose is to scout, deal with the traps the party doesn't wish to be injured by, bluff the guards, ambush the enemy at their weakest, and tell stories about the party's accomplishments, usually a rogue, bard or something like that.
the guy whose purpose is to drop weakened enemy minions, control the battlefield and keep a stable supply of minions to assist as needed. usually does it through magic and has some generic word like wizard, sorcerer, warlock or arcanist.
i think i defined the roles as assumed since 1e.
So? Still doesn't have anything to do with using MMO terminology in a TTRPG
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I personally dislike the term. To me "toons" are the animated characters in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I tend to not use MMO terms as I do not, nor have I ever, played MMOs. In fact, I don't even use the term PC outside of the boards. When talking amongst my group I will say "the party" or refer to the characters by name. It does irk me a bit when people use MMO terms, but I grin and bare it. I know it is something stupid to get worked up about, so I just roll with it, using my own preferred terminology while allowing others to use theirs.
^^This. I played MMO's for many years, and I never used the term "toon." It sounds childish and demeaning. "Toon" always makes me think of "Who framed Roger Rabbit." We'd use terms like "main" for our main character/account, "mule" for an extra character who's only purpose was to carry gear, do menial tasks, etc.
I'll sometimes use some MMO terms when talking about TTRPG's, if the topic justifies it. If I'm talking about a character whose focus is defense, and taking hits for the party, I'll refer to them as a "tank." Even then, I try to keep it in the right context so that even non-MMO players can get the gist of what I'm saying.
Use the proper term in the proper context. If you are unsure of what the proper term is; ask around.
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It's not cool & one must obey the rule of cool.
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If I used the term "Toon" rather than PC, what would you say? What arguments would you use for or against it?
Thus far, one of the more convincing arguments I've heard is that using lingo from a different type of game (in this case, MMOs) could cause confusion; however, this particular word doesn't seem all that egregious—most people, even having not played an MMO, could pick up from the surrounding context that "Toon"=PC.
Thoughts?
Before I read your comment, if you referred to a "toon" at my table, I honestly would have had no idea whatsoever what on Earth you were talking about.
Really.
My immediate thought was that you were referring to the long-out-of-print Toon Role-Playing Game from Steve Jackson Games.
Your post is the first time I have ever encountered the word "toon" as a reference to a PC. And I've been hanging out on the Paizo boards for at least three years.
Of course, I have also never once played an MMO in my life, and am completely unfamiliar with MMO terminology.
Now get off my lawn you damn kids!
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This discussion is always interesting to me. It's come up several times in the year I've been on the boards. And I see that clearly a great many people are emotionally invested here.
I've played ONE MMO - Guild Wars. I played my character up to 16th level. But the game wasn't very rewarding or fulfilling to me.
I've played console-based RPGS since the very first Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest game (yes, it predated Final Fantasy for you younger types, and the merger that created SquareEnix was awesome!)
I don't know that there's a "right" term for things. I've heard Pathfinder players rolling to "assist" on skill checks when the CRB clearly state the action is "aid another". I've heard people use "delay" and "ready" interchangeably when they have VERY different implications rules-wise. And these are dyed-in-the-wool tabletoppers.
Here's a few of my professional favorites. I do taxes, and we're near the biggest filing deadline here in the U.S.
How many people refer to the check they get back after filing as their "tax return"? It's not. No way, No how. The tax RETURN is the FORM that you file. Your tax REFUND is the money you get back if you overpaid.
Depreciation? It's not an really an expression for the fact that some assets decline in value over time. It's a cost recovery system that allows you to match the expenses of acquiring the asset over its useful life.
Anyway, I hope you have fun no matter what you resolve to do, lingo-wise!
dm gm
That's a point I can get behind, bbt.
But why can't "toon" be part of the appropriate terminology? Why "murderhobo," but not "toon"?
I don;t accept "murderhobo" either, I mean if you do play that way, I am not playing with you. I got past being 14 a LONG time ago. "Toon", to me, in FRPG means a quickly drawn up no background "Sherman the XII" type of PC, used in certain rocket-tag super optimized games where there is no roleplaying at all, just quick and dirty combats. If that "PC" dies, you just grab another from the pile.