What's hard to find is American animation that scores consistently high in both areas.
Well, the ones he listed had both. B:TAS and teh rest of the Timm/Diniverse stuff were very well written, and very well animated (if you look beneath the blocky veneer, the range of motion on people is very realistically human-like, even when talking such acrobatics as Batman gets up to).
And still even harder to find the storytelling that pushes the envelope in the way "Death Note" does.
I know what you mean, but I find Death Note to be a bad example. I really loved Death Note when I was younger but I tried re-watching it recently and found it to be laughably over the top, even the dark moments ruined by Light's Deluxe Christmas Ham being flung all over the screen.
Plus the second half wasn't super well written anyway.
Death Note was great for its time and audience (late teens mostly), but hasn't aged well IMO.
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Toon Fallacy:
That someone who uses MMO terms in or for a TTRPG must not or by nature can not be interested in nor capable of "good" roleplay.
See also: Stormwind Fallacy.
Toon Fallacy:
That someone who uses MMO terms in or for a TTRPG must not or by nature can not be interested in nor capable of "good" roleplay.
that is true.
But semantics is important. The choice of words we use has an impact.
One cannot start to replace words in one sector and expect to port their new definition in related fields without issues, resistance or reconsideration.
Ah yes... Stormwind Fallacy, the two holy words invoked by munchkins in self defense.Toon Fallacy:
That someone who uses MMO terms in or for a TTRPG must not or by nature can not be interested in nor capable of "good" roleplay.
See also: Stormwind Fallacy.
Ah yes... LazaraX, the guy who needlessly condemns a valid idea for its misuse.
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Toon Fallacy:
That someone who uses MMO terms in or for a TTRPG must not or by nature can not be interested in nor capable of "good" roleplay.
that is true.
But semantics is important. The choice of words we use has an impact.
One cannot start to replace words in one sector and expect to port their new definition in related fields without issues, resistance or reconsideration.
I was having a disagreement the other day with someone over the use of the word "literally".
Their argument was "yes, but languages evolve over time, meanings change."
Mine was "What useful purpose does that serve other than confusing the everloving heck out of everyone while they're changing?"
Re: the use of "toon" in MMOs - Every MMO I've played has used "character" or occasionally "avatar" - none has referenced the word "toon" in the rulebook, online help, or website, even in MMOs themselves I felt it was a slang term brought in by players, or possibly an MMO I haven't played used it in an official capacity and it spread from there. Either way, it just felt like a perfectly good official term was being replaced because someone, somewhere, felt they had a better idea.
I really don't like the word, it gives me the perception that they're not taking their character seriously. I like to play seriously, even in MMOs (when I still allowed myself to play them) I was more likely to be found on a designated RP server (for all the good that did...)
They don't have to take their character seriously. That's their call. However, if they don't I'm unlikely to enjoy playing a long-term campaign at the same table as them, and vice-versa.
Or maybe they do, and it's just my flawed perception - but if perception is all I have to go on when deciding whether to play with them or someone else, perception matters.
Perception matters. Communication matters. People inventing new words because it felt cool to them to do so tends to screw up communication. Our language has probably evolved enough by now, there isn't any need for it to do so further at the whim of every single generation. How about we leave it until we have something unnamed that needs a word before inventing new ones from now on? :)
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But they were right. Languages do change. They always will.
That's true, and English is an easy language to adapt and play with.
But semantics are being tested every day in every domain. It's often resisted at first, and time tell us if it becomes accepted or not.
I'm curious to see whether toon will become universally accepted in TTRPG in general, or in some circles, or about one type of game/system, or about a certain type of players, or rejected altogether.
For me it comes with too much baggage, and it seems to be true with a majority of forum users here. Many will see 'toon' with a rather negative connotation or too strong a connection with MMORPGs, which is only reinforced by what you can read on sites like Urban Dictionary or TV tropes. So until users manage to clear 'toon' of that baggage and connotation, I don't believe it's going to make it beyond " a term that some people used in the early twenty-teens".
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I was having a disagreement the other day with someone over the use of the word "literally".Their argument was "yes, but languages evolve over time, meanings change."
Mine was "What useful purpose does that serve other than confusing the everloving heck out of everyone while they're changing?"
Perception matters. Communication matters. People inventing new words because it felt cool to them to do so tends to screw up communication. Our language has probably evolved enough by now, there isn't any need for it to do so further at the whim of every single generation. How about we leave it until we have something unnamed that needs a word before inventing new ones from now on? :)
But they were right. Languages do change. They always will. There's no such thing as "evolved enough", since languages hundreds or thousands of years ago were just as good at communicating as ours are today (minus words for things not invented yet and probably plus some words for things we don't pay attention to now.)
Why stop now? And not 50 years ago? Or 100?
Actually, you're right. Let's go back. Reverse the Great Vowel Shift!!
Heh, my point was that it can't be looked at in black and white. You can't (and shouldn't) stop language evolving, but you also can't just declare "from now on everyone's going to use this new meaning, because language has to evolve" either - both are just as ridiculous (although perhaps I should have made my post a bit more ridiculous in case people start taking me seriously ;) )
The case in point with "literally" is - quite literally absurd. It already has a perfectly adequate meaning. On the other hand, the word "murderhobo" makes a useful addition to our vocabulary in order to explain a more complicated concept in short-form.
"Toon", I feel, still sits firmly in the realms of a slang term, until I see it being used by the majority of MMO publishers on their websites (even World of Warcraft still uses "character".) When I was still playing, maybe one in twenty people I spoke to used the term, which gives me the perception (and I'll quite happily accept the argument that in some circles it's used far greater than that, and that my perception was too narrow to notice the reality) it's not only slang but uncommon slang.
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Hrm. After the number of times it comes up on the boards, I now dislike "Stormwind Fallacy" more than "toon".
To me, all the various words shows how games(both tabletop and video) blend into each other.(Or if I am especially grumpy, infect) World of Warcraft has hit points for example and has brought around words such as 'toon','tank',DPS, and so on. These words and ideas go into Pathfinder and other games.
I should of said, World of Warcraft and other games took Hit Points from D&D and many other games as well.
ank and DPS, or rather Damage dealer were in use before UO and NWN.
DPS as a reference to someone's role is an MMO term. Seconds are used as a measure of time rarely in TTRPGs, most notably GURPS, and DPR is a latecomer term.
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In my days, we didn't have tanks. We had fighting men, AND WE WERE HAPPY ABOUT IT, you hear? Now get off my lawn!
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That applies to its real meaning. Not its meaning in MMOs (unless it's literally just referencing how MMOs are technically animated).Well, etymology-wise, "toon" in MMOs comes from "toon" as short for cartoon. :)
The folk-etymology is that the usage was inspired by the cartoonish nature of WoW animation. I don't know if anyone's actually researched it.
That's where I heard it mostly. I've played several MMO's, and WoW players seem to be the only one that uses the term with any regularity. I played Ultima Online, Phantasy Star Online, multiple WoW clones, and spent at least 6 years playing Final Fantasy XI: Online. I only heard the term "toon" used a few times, while playing FFXI, and even then, the person who said it got harassed by other players for using it. It would seem even among the MMO community, "toon" is relegated to WoW mostly, and has negative connotations.
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Ah yes... Stormwind Fallacy, the two holy words invoked by people accused of being munchkins because they optimize in self defense against elitist asshats that use broad brush terms to make themsleves feel like the superior members of a hobby.Toon Fallacy:
That someone who uses MMO terms in or for a TTRPG must not or by nature can not be interested in nor capable of "good" roleplay.
See also: Stormwind Fallacy.
FTFY
One thing I don't get is the fear that one word (usually one disliked) will replace any other word.
For example, let's take a rather common word: dog. There are a variety of different words one could use in place of the word "dog," including, but not limited to: pooch, hound, mutt, mongrel, puppy, pup, canine, etc. And yet, not one of these words has replaced any of the other words; rather, as some words fall out of popularity, they simply are used less. Correlated to, but not caused by the introduction of new words.
So to fear that some MMO players—as they seem to hold the most blame for the introduction of the word "toon" as a synonym for "character"—are inadvertently or purposefully trying to replace an already existing (and well-used) vocabulary seems imperceptive: such an event simply won't take place.
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One thing I don't get is the fear that one word (usually one disliked) will replace any other word.
For example, let's take a rather common word: dog. There are a variety of different words one could use in place of the word "dog," including, but not limited to: pooch, hound, mutt, mongrel, puppy, pup, canine, etc. And yet, not one of these words has replaced any of the other words; rather, as some words fall out of popularity, they simply are used less. Correlated to, but not caused by the introduction of new words.
So to fear that some MMO players—as they seem to hold the most blame for the introduction of the word "toon" as a synonym for "character"—are inadvertently or purposefully trying to replace an already existing (and well-used) vocabulary seems imperceptive: such an event simply won't take place.
It's a matter of time and place. For example, you won't hear about the Westminster Kennel Club pooch show, and if you went around talking about your pooch and wanting to see the other pooches in the competition, people won't take you seriously. But it's not because anyone fears the word "pooch."
Same thing applies to toon.
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People in different groups tend to have a collected assembly of acceptable jargon used specifically in that group--set terminology that everyone immediately understands as part of the group (e.g. IT people have language/terms they use amongst themselves, simplifying it when dealing with people outside their skill-set). When someone comes in and uses words outside of that collection, it tends to mark them as an outsider. If they don't assimilate, they remain an outsider, to some degree.
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One thing I don't get is the fear that one word (usually one disliked) will replace any other word.
For example, let's take a rather common word: dog. There are a variety of different words one could use in place of the word "dog," including, but not limited to: pooch, hound, mutt, mongrel, puppy, pup, canine, etc. And yet, not one of these words has replaced any of the other words; rather, as some words fall out of popularity, they simply are used less. Correlated to, but not caused by the introduction of new words.
So to fear that some MMO players—as they seem to hold the most blame for the introduction of the word "toon" as a synonym for "character"—are inadvertently or purposefully trying to replace an already existing (and well-used) vocabulary seems imperceptive: such an event simply won't take place.
I don't see it as a fear but more of a dislike. But then, I also dislike dude-bro, brah, bro, or any other variation on that theme. And for me, it's the same sort of thing: I know mostly what you are talking about, but you are doing it in a way that sets my teeth on edge and definitely paints a picture of someone I am not interested in spending copious amounts of time around.
C'mon adventures of the dude-bros wouldn't be all that bad.
Toon though, urgh, what an awful sounding term for adventurers. For me I occasionally use the Portuguese Aventuros because I love how it sounds.
It occurs to me that I refer to CGI-heavy movies like The Avengers as "cartoons," specifically because of the amount of animation vs. live-action in them. The fact that it's computer animated vs. hand-drawn is irrelevant to me.
So, if someone called their character a "toon," my first thought might be that they wanted to play an Iron Man-like concept. Which is not going make me sneer down my nose at them and accuse them of being not as "mature" as me... especially because we're about to sit down and play make-believe with dolls anyway.
Also, I moved to Pittsburgh recently. People here say stupid crap like "Yinz" and "Jaggoff" and "Needs done." Sometimes they call bologna "jumbo." I should probably go around sneering at everyone here and explain to them how much more mature I am than they are, and how they are obviously dissing the gods of sandwich meat with their blasphemous utterances.
Or maybe I'm a lot better off just taking this stuff quite so seriously.
And this is coming from a guy who sometimes posts as "Stuffy Grammarian."
Or you could just let it go and acknowledge that people like and dislike different things, sometimes to the point of being irrational about it.
Not sure that insulting people will make them see the light, however.
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I personally dislike the term. To me "toons" are the animated characters in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I tend to not use MMO terms as I do not, nor have I ever, played MMOs. In fact, I don't even use the term PC outside of the boards. When talking amongst my group I will say "the party" or refer to the characters by name. It does irk me a bit when people use MMO terms, but I grin and bare it. I know it is something stupid to get worked up about, so I just roll with it, using my own preferred terminology while allowing others to use theirs.
Honestly? Don't be ashamed - it's not as stupid as many would have you believe it is. It's well-known that exterior language and internal thought profoundly influence each other, and there is, in fact, such thing as "playing the game wrong," and you do have Johnnies-Come-Lately who would, in earlier decades, have ignored these games or even dumped on them and those who played them, but are now getting involved because it's become more mainstream, and tend to drag the game down into a groove with which they're already comfortable rather than taking the opportunity to try to escape from that groove (and if that isn't the most profound point of fantasy, I don't know what is). Don't get me started on the wider sociopolitical influences and implications....
Besides, if you really want to use the term "toon," there's an RPG just for that.