RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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1. No it doesn't "You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability)." Magic items do not get around that.
Boots of flying "as the fly spell"
Celestial armor "allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) "
But as was pointed out earlier, bringing logic and reason here is counter productive.
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Magic items normally do not let you qualify for build options.
In some cases they do. For instance, An 11 strength character with a +2 strength item can take power attack after wearing the item for 24 hours, though he cannot use power attack if he loses the bonus to strength.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
This wouldn't fly at the table I play at or a table that I would run.
You are, of course, free to houserule anything you want.
Casters have fly as a class skill. That gets around the restriction.
It doesn't actually.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).
Note that you cannot place ranks in Fly without either a natural means of flight or gliding, or a reliable means of flying every day.
Why would it specifically use "Druids need Wild Shape" as an example if all it takes is having fly as a class skill, which druids get at level 1?
*not FAQ or dev quote*
And no, a magic item does not let you take power attack.
Spells cast via magical items have always counted for skills and class abilities. I'm not sure at all where you are getting the argument that they do not. A spell is a spell, whether it comes from an item or a caster. You are basically instituting a house rule, which voids your whole comparison.
The rogue can spend the money to get a fly item, which in turn lets him take ranks in fly. Them's the rules.
And casters cannot take ranks in fly without flying, EITHER. They just get a +3 bonus for it being a class skill.
And keep in mind that if taking to-hit penalties hurts the overall damage (i.e. Deadly Aim) the bard simply isn't going to do that. He is not required to use Deadly Aim or Power attack...he's meant to hit.
and you naturally devalued the entire fact that a rogue getting his sneak attack off is dependent on the DM allowing it, not the Player, one of the biggest strikes against the whole sneak attack paradigm.
a bard attacking in melee combat actually does quite well, because he hits just about as often as a full BAB class.
Give him flanking, and your number calculations might surprise you.
==Aelryinth
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).Note that you cannot place ranks in Fly without either a natural means of flight or gliding, or a reliable means of flying every day.
Why would it specifically use "Druids need Wild Shape" as an example if all it takes is having fly as a class skill, which druids get at level 1?
You may have a point here. Irrelevant to rogues though.
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*not FAQ or dev quote*And no, a magic item does not let you take power attack.
Yes, it does. And it always has. Heck, there was at least one PrC that could be entered ONLY IF you had the appropriate magic item.
Where are you getting this erroneous opinon?
==Aelryinth
*not FAQ or dev quote*And no, a magic item does not let you take power attack.
Since you won't take my word for it, I strongly suggest you make a thread asking if items that give you ability score boosts qualify you for feats in the Rules Questions forum. I think you'll be surprised by the answers you'll receive.
and you naturally devalued the entire fact that a rogue getting his sneak attack off is dependent on the DM allowing it, not the Player, one of the biggest strikes against the whole sneak attack paradigm.
*shakes head*
I'm not even sure how to respond to that. It's like you didn't even look at the rogue build or any of the rules surrounding it.
Since you won't take my word for it, I strongly suggest you make a thread asking if items that give you ability score boosts qualify you for feats in the Rules Questions forum. I think you'll be surprised by the answers you'll receive.*not FAQ or dev quote*And no, a magic item does not let you take power attack.
I'll be surprised at non-nonsensical house-rules.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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You'll have to find an FAQ or dev comment specifically talking about this.
Magic items normally do not let you qualify for build options.
This wouldn't fly at the table I play at or at a table that I would run.
Casters have fly as a class skill. That gets around the restriction.
Marthkus, while I agree with what you're trying to do (I think a well played rogue is a perfectly viable adventurer), I'm going to have to disagree with you here.
Fly's status as a class skill has nothing to do with the "must be able to fly" restriction on putting ranks in it.
And magic items do have a history of helping qualify for feats, at least. A 12 Str character with a belt of +2 Str can certainly take Power Attack, they just lose the benefits if they lose the belt.
Excuse me.
Your combat example is 'the rogue gets flanking', which is highly dependent on the DM allowing the creature to get flanked for multiple rounds.
It appears YOU are not reading your own examples.
==Aelryinth
Excuse me.
Your combat example is 'the rogue gets flanking', which is highly dependent on the DM allowing the creature to get flanked for multiple rounds.
It appears YOU are not reading your own examples.
You mean one of my combat examples... which was labeled optimal for both...
Ridiculous...
*not FAQ or dev quote*And no, a magic item does not let you take power attack.
Errr... Yes it does and yes it does?
And magic items do have a history of helping qualify for feats, at least. A 12 Str character with a belt of +2 Str can certainly take Power Attack, they just lose the benefits if they lose the belt.
*rubs temples*
Regardless, this doesn't mean I would recommend the rogue take ranks in fly.
Errr... Yes it does and yes it does?*not FAQ or dev quote*And no, a magic item does not let you take power attack.
That's a whole separate rules discussion.
Like do they need to be wearing the item on level up? If not, prequesites become meaningless under the possibility of a magical item granting bonuses to let you meet them. Then those abilities just sit, waiting for you to qualify for them and then BAM! they work.
If they do, then what you are wearing effects your build progression...
Either way it's nonsensical.
I'm glad this thread is actually posting builds now.
Marthkus, don't your calculations need to account for the round (or two) the rogue needs to even get into position and begin full attacking? (or even sneak attacking for that matter?)
No, it's completely spelled out. You wear a stat device for 24 hours, and its considered a permanent bonus. As long as they are wearing it, they are fine.
As long as an item lets you fly once a day, you're fine.
What about the clear explanations for such items is confusing you?
And what is the AC of the target they are fighting in the combat example? I couldn't find it with a hasty look over.
For some reason you're comparing a sniper bard to a melee rogue? Because you can't flank with a bow? Shouldn't you be comparing melee rogue and bard, and then sniper rogue and bard? Except, of course, the rogue can't flank with missile weapons, but that would also be an even comparison for his non-SA usefulness (arrows in surprise round or something vs normal support).
==Aelryinth
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No, it's completely spelled out. You wear a stat device for 24 hours, and its considered a permanent bonus. As long as they are wearing it, they are fine.
As long as an item lets you fly once a day, you're fine.
What about the clear explanations for such items is confusing you?
And what is the AC of the target they are fighting in the combat example? I couldn't find it with a hasty look over.
For some reason you're comparing a sniper bard to a melee rogue? Because you can't flank with a bow? Shouldn't you be comparing melee rogue and bard, and then sniper rogue and bard? Except, of course, the rogue can't flank with missile weapons, but that would also be an even comparison for his non-SA usefulness (arrows in surprise round or something vs normal support).
==Aelryinth
This.
I'm also deeply worried by your priorities when having maxed Sense Motive (that runs off Charisma) is ignored in a build comparison involving Skills as a major factor.
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Also note the Rogue has more gear...he has a complete other caster in the party providing buffs for him, OR an extra Wand he can UMD, that the Bard doesn't. The bard, oddly enough, gets neither of those benefits. He should be begging a Greater Magic Weapon off a caster if the Rogue gets free Heroism, to keep things fair.
==Aelryinth
Sense Motive runs off Wisdom?
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Why? because having 16 extra spells known doesn't help the fact that you can only cast one spell per round. My DM gave me permission to retool and I made him with 13 additional skill points.Most skills are typically not used in combat. You have plenty of skill points for the ones that do. Instead of picking up your 11th skill rank you use the extra spells to pick up utility spells generally not used in combat, but rather for other things. For instance, you can put ranks in Climb - or learn Alter Self to give yourself a climb speed, and 15 other spells to boot.
Instead of Handle Animal you learn Charm Animal, etc.
Scrolls are a valid alternative for 1st and 2nd level spells, though they quickly become cost intensive for the higher levels.
Alter Self is on my bard's list. He has 5 or 6 2nd level spells known without the extra spell known feature, so Alter Self made the cut. The others are: Delay Poison (basically better than Neutralize Poison IMO), Hold Person, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Tongues.
Sense Motive runs off Wisdom?
Versatile Performance runs of charisma, so Sense Motive goes from being based on the dump stat (wisdom) to the best/second best stat (charisma).
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 15/15/15/10/15/15/15/10Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 121.7
I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 14/14/9/14/14/9 ave damage 15.5
Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 71.3
For some reason you're comparing a sniper bard to a melee rogue? Because you can't flank with a bow? Shouldn't you be comparing melee rogue and bard, and then sniper rogue and bard? Except, of course, the rogue can't flank with missile weapons, but that would also be an even comparison for his non-SA usefulness (arrows in surprise round or something vs normal support).
No not at all. Melee bard loses, hard. And I didn't make a ranged only rogue, it's too limited until sniper goggles are available. The rogue can use some range.
You are complaining about an assumption that works in the bards favor.
I'm glad this thread is actually posting builds now.
Marthkus, don't your calculations need to account for the round (or two) the rogue needs to even get into position and begin full attacking? (or even sneak attacking for that matter?)
The second example is just the rogue feint stabbing each round.
The first example example is not combat, it's peak damage for each of them in a round compared to each other.
I'm also deeply worried by your priorities when having maxed Sense Motive (that runs off Charisma) is ignored in a build comparison involving Skills as a major factor.
Sense motive is a limited skill.
You can think a person is lying all you want. Sense motive just let's you figure that out mechanically.
That was also a parity comparison. Since the rogue doesn't have it, sense motive doesn't count in the skill comparison, just like bardic knowledge.
I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 14/14/9/14/14/9 ave damage 15.5Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 71.3
Using the rogue you posted on the previous page together with the gear you mentioned you would by level 10 get the following outcome against a single CR10 Fire Giant, assuming no buffs.
+15/10 1d6+1+5d6 sneak attackVersus AC24 he is looking at the following numbers:
Full attack without sneak attack: 4.91
Single sneak attack due to feinting (still AC24): 13.60
Full attack sneak attack from flanking (still AC24 but at +2): 26.07The Giant deals 52 damage per round to him and he has 73hp. His odds of survival are low.
You know, I had a response, and I thought it was good. But until I try it out in a session, I might as well be spewing hot air.
As far as I can tell, the bard is doing less damage (yes even if they don't deadly aim. Deadly aim is > 25% of their damage at the cost of 10% accuracy)
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 15/15/15/10/15/15/15/10Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 121.7I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 14/14/9/14/14/9 ave damage 15.5Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 71.3
The reason you gave the bard haste is because he casts Haste in the buff round.
I wouldn't say you messed up... it's probably on every bard's spell list...I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Yes but his buff round was starting music and casting good hope.
The reason you gave the bard haste is because he casts Haste in the buff round.Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 15/15/15/10/15/15/15/10Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 121.7I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Less Optimal situation: 3 round combat surprise attack, bard starts with no buffs, no buffs for rogue, no flanking possible
Rogue: +15+?* = 17/17/17 for 22 average damage + 15 bleed (one SA per round)
*(bonus from them being flat footed let's say 2)
Bard: Buff round 14/14/9/14/14/9 ave damage 15.5Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 71.3
No he was casting good-hope.
If he wasn't then it is reasonable to say the rogue has heroism on.
Yes but his buff round was starting music and casting good hope.I wouldn't say you messed up... it's probably on every bard's spell list...I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Why would he cast Good Hope instead of Haste...?
And what is the AC of the target they are fighting in the combat example? I couldn't find it with a hasty look over.
The numbers mean nothing. Whoever has the biggest number is doing the most damage. Which didn't account for crits.
You can run it through actual DPR calculations if you want.
Indeed, in fact given the duration of heroism the bard simply casts it earlier on and uses a buff round for haste and then move into position.
If the bard has heroism up, so does the rogue. That's not how that encounter was set up.
Also the difference between heroism and good hope is 13% of the bard's damage.
I just have to laugh when I think about 3.5 players 10 years ago, being told that the problem of the future will be "Bards are too powerful!" :)
In the words of Bella Oxmix, "Nobody eclipses nobody but himself."
Why would he cast Good Hope instead of Haste...?Yes but his buff round was starting music and casting good hope.I wouldn't say you messed up... it's probably on every bard's spell list...I messed this up. I gave bards haste for no reason.
Hmmmmm.
fair. I didn't have the bard grab it as a spell, but I am no expert on bards and the spells they should select.
that changes it a little (oh and I forgot manyshot in the most recent one)
13/13/13/8/13/13/13/8 ave damage 13.5
Comparative numbers:
Rogue: 81-96
Bard: 101.25
I thought it was odd that the bard lost that much from no haste.
How does the Rogue have heroism up exactly. Level 3 spell scrolls are 375gp a pop and they last 50 minutes. That will eat into an awful lot of wealth.
The rogue is in a party.
I'll quote myself:
"Note on heroism: This is a nice dungeon buff and overlaps with good hope. A bard using good hope is saving the wizard 3rd level slots or saving the party from buying a 6K gold wand of bardic heroism (which last 40 minutes per use) for the party."
Some people like to pretend that if the bard can cast a spell, it just stops existing for everyone else. Heroism is the kind of spell the whole party can use.
It cost 120g a bop or wizard spell slots. That's still cheaper than the healing it saves on.
Bards periodically casting good hope save the wizard spells slots or the party some money. For the most part... sometimes the gab in-between good hopes can be exploited.
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If you're assuming there's an arcane caster able and willing to provide Heroism in the rogue's party, why is there no beneficial buffs added to the bard from other sources?
Conversely, if the rogue is using 6k to buy a wand of Heroism, that's 6k that should be removed from his WBL - you didn't post a wand of Heroism in the gear suggestions you mentioned earlier, and with only 3.4k left over for potions and scrolls you can't afford it.
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Reading this thread is like watching a slow-motion video of a deadly car crash with multiple fatalities.
It is fascinating and I cannot help but keep reading, but everyone loses in the end and I feel dirty for paying attention to it...
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Peak damage if all attacks hit?
What?
If you don't include the AC of the target, and the fact the bard does not have to use Deadly Aim or Rapid Shot, you're utterly wrong. The Rogue's low BAB is his biggest weakness. The bard being able to put up +5 to hit of bonuses will easily swing the fight and damage.
AC:24 Bard in melee: +2/+2 Heroism, +1/0 Haste, +2/+2 Inspire Courage, +2 Weapon (greater Magic weapon off another caster, to equal the free heroism or haste the rogue gets), Base +7, +2 th flanking, -2/+4 Power Attack, 0/+3 Arcane Strike +7 Dex = +21/+21/+16 to hit, for d6 + 13, avg 16.5.
Against an AC of 24, that's 90/90/65 or 245% damage, or 40.425, ignoring crits.
If we skip the Haste, that's 85/60 for 145%, or 23.925.
The Rogue: +7 BAB, Heroism +2, +1 Weapon, +7 Dex, +2 Flanking is at +17/+12, for 6d6+3, for avg 24, 70%/45% = 115% because he's going to miss and doesn't get as many attacks. Dmg is 27.60.
If he switches to Haste instead of heroism, his Th drops by 1, his dmg by 2, for +16/+16/+11, or 65/65/40 = 170% of 6d6+1 or 22, for 37.4. And that's assuming Sneak Attack on EVERY attack.
If he gets BOTH Spells as a freebie (which means unequal gear again), he's +18/+18/+13, which is 200% of 6d6+2, or 23, or 46 damage...the only scenario in which he beats the bard, and he loses if the bard crits, because the bard multiplies his whole bonus. (.15 crit chance x 170% chance of confirming x 16.5 is +4.25, or 45 damage, comfortably equal again). The rogue averages +1 damage on a crit.
The Rogue's TO HIT is killing him, and the only thing giving him a chance is his SA damage. It has always been this way. And this is the 'melee' example, where you thought he'd shine. His 'average damage' IF he gets a Sneak attack AND all the spell buffs the Bard gives himself is a whopping 2.5 points higher then the bard...and doesn't multiply on a crit, when both are using high crit weapons (rapiers).
The Rogue only outperforms the bard if someone casts Haste on him and the bard doesn't get it.
This gets worse with levels as Inspire Courage ramps up in effect, and the Rogue falls further behind in To hit. A Subtle Sword can save him for a while, but not forever.
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Comparing the two classes without hit rate, as if 'every attack hits' is a trap and a fool's game. Unless you compare against AC and realize how glaring a problem the rogue's BAB and lack of TH is, you don't realize that all the damage dice in the world don't mean squat if you can't hit your enemy.
The rogue trying to be a sniper is going to suffer more problems if he uses Rapid Shot and/or Deadly Aim, as his miserable BAB goes into the floor and he can't hit squat. his Feint 1/rd (also not guaranteed to work, although highly likely!) means he gets 1 SA...if he hits.
With no flanking and no extra attack from Haste, he's +17 for a 70% hit chance of 23 damage, or 15 damage.
The bard, with Haste on himself, firing normally for d6+13, Deadly Aim and no Rapid Shot, is again at 21/21/16, or 245% of 16.5 damage, or 40 damage. Blows the rogue away. IF he uses Rapid Shot, he's at 19/19/19/14, which is 80/80/80/55, or 295% damage, so lets call it 48.
The Rogue is not even in the same league.
Without Haste (not wasting the buff round), the Bard is at 20/15, which is 85/60 or 145% of 16.5, which is 23, which still beats the Rogue's 15, because he HITS MORE OFTEN and doesn't need Sneak Attack damage to do the hurty-hurt.
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So, seriously, where are you getting these awesome numbers for the Rogue? "IF we all dump our buffs on the Rogue, he rocks" is not a defense for the rogue, it is an acknowledgement that by himself he's really not useful.
Expecting that the Rogue is going to hit with all his attacks (meaning a 10th level Rogue is fighting AC 20 and less opponents) is likewise highly unrealistic.
=+Aelryinth
Except that the arty could, instead of having brought a useless rogue, bring a useful second bard and one can good hope and the other can haste and everyone is set from round 1. You don't get to benefit from stuff you have no access to when comparing what each class brings to the table.
As things stand your previously posted Rogue build manages all of 26 dpr against an average CR10 opponent at level 10. That is assuming ideal conditions where you start out flanking and in reach of the target. It doesn't begin to touch the many situations in which he is hosed down to about 5dpr, such as flying opponents, foggy or dimly lit situations, someone casting blur or obscuring mist and god knows what else.
Two bards? What are you talking about? The bard and the rogue were never in the same party.
I only do considerations in a party/actual-game setting.
By the way the DPR I am counting in a party setting is 45.7
Of course that doesn't get into the realities of play and combat. You are now moving beyond just comparing the numbers and into encounters and the game. I still have theories to test on that front. (Yes I am comparing numbers for a party setting and am still pretending not to be talking about actual play aspects. Wheeee!)
13th level bards start music as Swift Action
Drinking a potion is a Move Action with Accelerated Drinker trait (which every PC should have btw)
Casting a spell is a Standard Action.
--> that's a proper buff round! :)
Yes and by 13th level the rogue has greater feint and opportunist, doubling his attacks in that situation. Then at 14 he starts doing strength damage.
At some point though you have to just pick a place to do the comparison. Rogues and bards aren't like fighter, who play more or less the same from 1-20.