Hello everyone, over the last month or so there have been lots of posts talking about whether one class eclipses another, or sucks or can or can not compete in a variety of situations. This thread is not intended as a continuation of those arguments.
At various times people have been asked to produce builds to show what they can or can not do. This thread is an opportunity to bring those characters together and compare them against a fixed set of tasks. This will try and compare how a particular character manages to deal with a range of issues including:
Offence
Defence
Skill Tasks
I will set a series of target values designed to represent standard challenges at this level and then you use your post to measure your entrant against each of those tasks. People can then make their own minds up about what any particular brings to the party.
What this thread is not for is to argue about any single particular class or build. If you want to do that please start your own thread to do so. This is purely about demonstrating how your character meets the many and varied challenges which might confront them in everyday adventuring life.
Character Creation Rules
Level 10
PF Material only, no 3rd party, no 3.x
Standard WBL for level 10 of 62000gp
Those with crafting feats gain UC's recommended 25% increase in WBL for 1 feat or 50% if you have 2 or more
So, what are our target numbers?
Quote:
Offence
The Monster Creation rules have the standard AC for CR10 as 24. Monster generally do not have a great Dex and therefore we will treat flatfooted AC as 22. You only get to target flatfooted AC if you have a reliable means of doing without relying on others.
The good save at level 10 is +13. Poor save is +9. You should account for your chance of success targeting each save and also consider the number of times you can do so. Having only 1 fortitude targeting spell available means you may struggle is fighting lots of fort poor enemies.
Monster HP at this level is on average 130hp.
In a move blatantly stolen from the DPR Olympics threads if you want to calculate your DPR then use the following formula:
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Our standard for considering AC defence at this level is being full attacked by a CR10 Fire Giant. Their attack routine is:
+18/13/8 3d6+24 with power attack
+21/18/11 3d6+15 without power attack
Our standard save tasks are as follows:
Fortitude: Bitten by a Guardian Naga, DC21, 1d4 con, save 1/round for 6 rounds
Reflex: Being breathed on by a Young Red dragon, DC19, 6d10 damage
Will: Plane Shifted to Hell by a Couatl, DC20
To test CMD consider the following situations:
A Bebilith tries to dismantle your armour and shield, +23CMB
A Clay Golem tries to grapple you (without improved grab): +21 CMB, AC24
A Giant Flytrap grabs you with its bite: +22 CMB
Quote:
Skill Challenges
The following represent some reasonably base DC's against creatures which are competent in their particular area or which represent tasks you might expect a level 10 character to be able to cover. If you have some other means of bypassing the required check then note them.
DC39 Acrobatics: Tumble out of the reach of an Elder Earth Elemental by moving at least 20'
DC32 Bluff: Convince a Movanic Deva guarding an ancient holy site that you are an initiate of their faith and entitled to be there
DC35 Climb: Ascend a rough cliff covered in ice (rough plus slippery) during a storm (ad hoc +5)
DC33 Diplomacy: Convince an otherwise indifferent adult green dragon to disclose the location of the Lich Kings phylactery and help you find your way past his wards (indifferent +15 aid that could result in punishment)
DC35 Disable Device: Disable a CR10 Energy Drain trap
DC38 Disguise: Disguise yourself as one of the Lich Kings zombie mass. He has zombies of every race and gender so you take no penalties for that.
DC35 Escape Artist: Escape a set of the very cheap masterwork manacles
DC28 Fly: Outfly an erupting volcano by flying straight upwards during a windstorm
DC35 Handle Animal: Rear a Spinosaurus from hatching to serve as your battle mount!
DC24 Heal: Treat a concentrated dose of Tears of Death delivered by a trained alchemist
DC33 Intimidate: Bully a forest giant into doing what you want
DC22+ Knowledge: Identify a CR12 monster. You get the identity and piece of information if you make the check plus one extra piece for every 5 you beat it by
DC34 Perception: Spot a mature adult black dragon stealthing at full speed towards you while underwater 50' away
DC30 Ride: Control your mount in battle while bareback (+5DC) during a hurricane (ad hoc +5)
DC29 Sense Motive: Catch out a young adult copper dragon in a contest of riddles
DC34 Sleight of Hand: Steal the jewelled necklace phylactery from around the neck of the Lich King while pretending to be his zombie valet
DC28 Spellcraft: decipher a scroll of greater planar binding
DC33 Stealth: Remain out of sight of a Guardian Naga (note it has Darkvision)
DC35 Survival: Track a party of raiding giants at twice your normal speed on firm ground
DC20 Swim: Remain afloat in stormy seas, you cannot take 10 (swim DC's barely scale)
DC34 Use Magic Device: If you are a divine caster activate a scroll of Greater Teleport to escape some hideous situation. If you are an arcane caster activate a clerical scroll of Resurrection to revive a deceased ally. If neither then don't worry about it, just hit the DC. You may also need to make a DC32 check to emulate the relevant ability score (17 for either scroll).
So, those are your challenges. Post your full build and identify which of them you are capable of making.
Finally please remember, this is not a thread to argue about different classes. Please take that elsewhere. This is about showing what any particular character is able to achieve.
It's kind of off topic, but since when did offense and defense have a c in them? Is this an English thing I'm unaware of?
Since they were created as words within the English language. The same way that coloUr and armoUr both have a U in them. You colonial bastardisation of my mother tongue is however a rather off topic issue.
I will look to post a couple of example benchmark characters when I get in from work tonight.
It's kind of off topic, but since when did offense and defense have a c in them? Is this an English thing I'm unaware of?
Since they were created as words within the English language. The same way that coloUr and armoUr both have a U in them. You colonial bastardisation of my mother tongue is however a rather off topic issue.
I will look to post a couple of example benchmark characters when I get in from work tonight.
Now you listen here, this here is Murica. And you'd better start speakin the language the good'ol Holy Bible was written in: AMERICAN.
In America its a common mistake for people to use a c I.e. like posters at a sports game: defense is spelled with a c since its pronounced "D-fence" when its a noun.
This is why I asked because in the U.S. that's incorrect. "Your" language is largely just a bastardisation of french and others so no need to get butthurt.
In America its a common mistake for people to use a c I.e. like posters at a sports game: defense is spelled with a c since its pronounced "D-fence" when its a noun.
This is why I asked because in the U.S. that's incorrect. "Your" language is largely just a bastardisation of french and others so no need to get butthurt.
In America its a common mistake for people to use a c I.e. like posters at a sports game: defense is spelled with a c since its pronounced "D-fence" when its a noun.
This is why I asked because in the U.S. that's incorrect. "Your" language is largely just a bastardisation of french and others so no need to get butthurt.
You are mistaking a bit of sarcasm and snark for annoyance. I am well aware that English has changed over the years although I will continue to use English spellings. I rather like what I think was a quote from Pratchett that the English language ambushed other languages in a back alley and rifled their pockets for spare grammar.
OK, here is our first contestant. This is not my character, it is a Sanctified Rogue posted in one of the recent Rogues suck threads. I thought it might make an interesting starting point for comparisons given the rogue is often pointed to as the weakest of the available PC classes. How does he measure up to our benchmarks?
Quote:
Offence:
This is a rogue archer which does run into some problems. Our numbers assume he is within 30' and are run with and without sneak attack.
With an attack line of +17/17/12 versus AC24 using Ravingdorks calculator we are looking at:
Within 30' not hasted no SA: 21.09
Within 30' not hasted with SA: 77.51
The huge difference is largely accounted for by the snipers goggles which give an extra 10 damage if he is capable of applying sneak attack. The problem this character has of course is that it has no way of being certain of applying sneak attack and is therefore very reliant on either going first or the target being flanked. +13 initiative means it is likely to get one round of full sneak attack damage but then things fall off sharply.
Against a 130hp opponent he takes 3 rounds to kill it when we include bleed damage from the initial volley. He also has some quite significant issues overcoming DR although those could be resolved with different forms of ammo.
Quote:
Defence
With an AC of 18 our Fire Giant is hitting his initial melee attacks on a 2. At 18/13/8 with 3d6+24 the giant is looking at an average damage from a full attack of 87.28. Our rogue has 93hp so simply cannot stand toe to toe. He also has no way to shoot without provoking. The Giants CMD is 31 so 20 acrobatics means a 50/50 chance of being able to move without provoking. Without haste the furthest he is going is 15' or he takes a -10. With Haste he gets 30', still well within charge range. This rogue cannot survive against the giant in anything other than the most favourable situations.
His save modifiers are 8/15/7. He falls to the Naga's Poison 60% of the time. To throw it off himself he needs to make 2 consecutive saves which he has a 16% chance of doing. At 1d4 con per fail and a con of 14 he has around 6 rounds to remain alive. He is avoiding the Dragons Breath attack 85% of the time and taking no damage. He is plane shifted 60% of the time. This character cannot afford to be targeted by anything will or fortitude related.
On the CMD side of things with a CMD of 26 his chance to be affected by any of them is extremely high. 25% chance at best to avoid the Golems grapple and as he doesn't threaten with the bow he cant make the opportunity attack to disrupt it. He could wear some armour spikes or something but with a 14str he is attacking at +9 (30% chance to hit) and doing about 5 damage moving his chance to avoid to about 50% if he hits.
Quote:
Skill Challenges
This should be the area in which the rogue excels given his large number of skill points. However, the only check he can make with any regularity is the Disable Device. Beyond that he has a 40% chance of making the stealth check if he can find some cover, 35% chance of the sleight of hand and a 25% chance of making the Perception check.
Now, I am quite sure that these can be beaten by a better rogue but this is one build presented by one of the "rogues do fine" camp. On the numbers above he certainly seems to struggle at anything other than DPR under the most optimal circumstances. Certainly is he can get sneak attack then he does decent damage, significantly more with Haste, but any situation where he fails to gain SA he seriously struggles.
Spoiler:
Human Rogue 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 16, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 93 (10d8+40)
Fort +8, Ref +15 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +2 composite longbow +17/+17/+12 (1d8+15/19-20/×3) within 30'
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 26
Right, time for a comparison with one of my characters. This is the human version of Casimir, my seeker sage sorcerer, the gentleman thief. He is a skill focused battlefield control sorcerer so makes a decent comparator for the rogue.
Quote:
Offence
Obviously as a sorcerer he is not interested in making melee attacks. Our comparisons are all about whether or not opponents are likely to resist his spells. He has spells capable of targeting all three saves. Standard combat spells are:
Other options include spells such as Stinking Cloud (fort), blindness (fort), Command Undead (will), Aqueous Orb (ref), Suggestion (will), Confusion (will), As such he is entirely capable of routinely targeting low saves. His success chance for persistent level 2 spells is therefore:
Glitterdust: 84%
Create Pit: 84%
Grease: 80%
With 10 spell slots of level 4-5 (after Overland Flight) he can also happily do this over the course of 4 encounters before having to dip down into non persistent level 2-3 spells.
Quote:
Defence
AC18 places him in the same position as out sanctified rogue if he is cornered by the Giant. With 72HP he simply cannot survive a full round attack from a giant. However, with overland flight he should rarely find himself in that position. Is he does find himself stood next to said giant then with a +22 concentration check he cannot fail to defensively cast either Invisibility or Dimension Door. In the unlikely event he was surprised in melee by the giant he would take one hit for around 35 damage. If he wins initiative (+7 versus -1) which is likely he can easily get out of combat. If need be he can also employ Emergency Force Sphere which the giant takes two rounds to batter through. Given any buffing time at all he has around 5 mirror images seriously cutting down any likely damage.
Against saves he is in some difficulty. He fails the Naga poison save 55% of the time and his chance to make two saves in a row is about 20%. He fails against the dragon breath 50% of the time and against the plane shift 45%. However the Naga has the same problems the Giant has hitting him and the breath weapon can be negated by EFS. The plane shift is the biggest danger but invisibility, mirror image and EFS are all effective defences.
All of the CMB attacks pretty much auto hit but all again suffer the problems of being able to target him. All three are essentially helpless against him unless in very confined spaces as none can detect a flying invisible opponent. The flytrap has tremorsense but as he has continual flying it doesn't hep. It and the Golem have very glaring weaknesses in their will and reflex defences. The Bebilith's will is particularly poor.
Quote:
Skill Challenges
Acrobatics: Impossible but he can avoid the need by defensively casting Dimension Door
Bluff: Passes on an 11, 9 if he bought a masterwork tool for bluff
Climb: Bypasses by virtue of overland flight
Diplomacy: Takes 10, passes on a 9
Disable Device: Passes on an 11, can make the check from 50' away using Pilfering Hand potentially negating any effect of a trap in any event
Escape Artist: Needs a 20, if he can get a grease off in advance passes on a 13, if you can cast while manacled can escape via dimension door, can probably pick the lock in any event
Fly: Fails the check but avoids the situation with Dimension Door in any event
Intimidate: He fails the check but a persistent suggestion has a 58% chance of success
Knowledge: Automatically identifies anything with Arcana or Planes, needs a 4 for religion or local, 13 for dungeoneering
Perception: Passes on a 7
Sleight of Hand: Fails the check but may be able to succeed with Pilfering Hand, +18 versus CMD of 25 so makes it on a 7. Will need to make a hasty exit as the Lich will certainly notice his spellcasting.
Spellcraft: Passes on a 14 or casts read magic
Stealth: Needs a 15 base to pass however the addition of invisibility means he goes to a base stealth of 38 versus the Naga's 23 perception and he avoids the darkvision issue. Alternatively he can bypass it with dimension door or earth glide from elemental form I.
Swim: Would normally be an automatic fail although he has accounted for this area with gear. Alternatively it is a DC19 concentration check to cast Elemental Body I while subject to violent motion which he passes automatically. Water Elemental form gives him a natural swim speed and he can breathe underwater.
He pretty much automatically fails the animal handling, disguise, heal, survival, ride, sense motive and UMD checks but he has a good chance of dealing with 14 of the 21 checks.
Spoiler:
Casimir
Male Human (Varisian) Sorcerer (Seeker, Wildblooded) 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +27
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 72 (10d6+30)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Combat Gear potion of air bubble (3), potion of delay poison (2), potion of remove blindness/deafness, potion of touch of the sea (3), wand of infernal healing (50 charges); Other Gear amulet of natural armor +1, belt of mighty constitution +2, cloak of resistance +2, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +4, ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), page of spell knowledge (burning hands), page of spell knowledge (charm person), page of spell knowledge (comprehend languages), page of spell knowledge (magic missile), page of spell knowledge (memory lapse), page of spell knowledge (shield), ring of protection +1, robe of arcane heritage, wayfinder, masterwork tool, masterwork tool, sorcerer's kit, spell component pouch (2), spell component pouch, thieves' tools, masterwork
I think I have a bit of an issue with where you've got your benchmarks set. A "sufficiently powerful" 10th level character should have a 50/50 chance of dying when facing a CR10 foe alone - being able to solo such a creature consistently means you've built someone with a pretty good level of optimization, well past the point you need to have to be successful at an AP and valuable to your party.
Also all your skill challenges are suddenly against things like Lich kings and higher CR monsters. I'd dare say most level 10 PCs can't do nearly any of that stuff. Even characters good at their skills will have a tough time consistently hitting DC30 at 10th level, except maybe in 1 or 2 areas of focus.
For example, your benchmarks for things like Disguise and Stealth should be based off the average CR 10 monster's Perception. Or pull out a level 10 module and look at the DCs of the required checks. I highly doubt you'd be looking at things in the mid/high 30s very often.
I'm just saying that if you want these comparisons to have any validity we need to agree that the benchmarks are fair.
The Lich is CR12. You can reasonably expect to be encountering such creatures at a fairly regular interval at level 10. Calling him the lich king is just a bit of flavour.
The elder earth elemental is CR11. The movanic deva is CR10. The adult green dragon is CR12. The forest giant is CR12. The black dragon is CR10. The young adult copper dragon is CR11. The Guardian Naga is CR10. These are all entirely plausible opponents for a level 10 party, especially having regard to the amount of post CRB power creep which has occurred.
The rest of the checks are primarily environmental with fairly fixed DC's.
Note that the Disguise DC is slightly inflated by giving the Lich a +4 "familiarity" bonus. Feel free to ignore it if you want, if he has vast hordes of undead he probably hasn't paid much attention to any individual zombie.
That rogue build is mine : ). Some things you copy are missing: the ADV rogue talent feat is iron will. My saves are 9/16/10 what is realy good for a class with 2 bad saves. You can count with haste since is 10round/day and activate with free action what will give the rogue +1 to hit, +1 CA and one extra attack. With the steath the rogue have 65% of one extra attack on surprise round and can end the combate on the first or second round at max.
The problem with your plan is that you have no way to generate the conditions required for stealth. You have no form of improved vision making getting around in the dark next to impossible, which is rather common when adventuring. Sneaking up on anything with darkvision is next to impossible for you and the large majority of CRB opponents will have it or something worse for you.
Also even if you are able to put out much in the way of damage you utterly fail at the skill game and are crushed by pretty much any offence directed your way. If you take Iron Will then you lose something else, Great Fortitude leaves your fort at +6, Toughness drops you to 83hp which is one round kill territory, precise shot means you fail as a group member. You are already struggling with a probably -4 to attack from soft cover from allies/additional enemies.
Hi andreww! I super suck, so can you tell me if this rogue can do anything? He has an extra 3k gold for miscellaneous magic items
Sappy Knockems:
Sappy Knockems
Human Rogue (Sanctified Rogue, Swashbuckler) 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 16, flat-footed 21 (+6 armor, +3 shield, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +9, Ref +15, Will +11; +3 morale bonus vs. fear
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist daring
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen gladius +13/+8 (1d6+2/19-20) and
+2 agile sap +15/+10 (1d6+7 nonlethal)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +13/+8 (1d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 24
Feats Dazzling Display, Enforcer, Iron Will, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Shadow Strike, Shatter Defenses, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (sap)
Traits bruising intellect, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +5, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +20, Escape Artist +18, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (local) +6, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +18, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +11; Racial Modifiers ki jump (running start)
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ divine epiphany, ki pool, ki stealth, rogue talents (combat trick, combat trick, finesse rogue, ki pool, weapon training)
Other Gear +1 mithral kikko armor, +2 buckler, +1 composite longbow, +1 silversheen gladius, +2 agile sap, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of resistance +3, decoy ring, handy haversack, ring of protection +1, rogue's kit, thieves' tools, masterwork, 34,800 gp
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Special Abilities
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Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Dazzling Display (Sap) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Decoy ring If withdraw/helpless, invisible 3 rds and 4 illusory decoys run in opposite directions.
Divine Epiphany (CL 10) (1/day) (Su) Use augury once per day.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Ki Jump (Running Start) (Su) Jumping is always counted as being at a running start.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Stealth A ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth skill checks for 1 round.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when dealing nonlethal damage
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Unfortunately this build requires so many damn feats, I couldn't afford to get vanishing trick or two weapon fighting, argh.
EDIT: Casmir has some wrong things, his burning hands should be dc 19, same with charm person
It's kind of off topic, but since when did offense and defense have a c in them? Is this an English thing I'm unaware of?
Since they were created as words within the English language. The same way that coloUr and armoUr both have a U in them. You colonial bastardisation of my mother tongue is however a rather off topic issue.
I will look to post a couple of example benchmark characters when I get in from work tonight.
You do know that a lot of the "colonial bastardization" mistakes were actually current English back when the colonists eft, and its England that moved away from them in the interfering period. Right? Many of those "Americanized English' bits are older than the version used in England.
Hi andreww! I super suck, so can you tell me if this rogue can do anything? He has an extra 3k gold for miscellaneous magic items
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks very much for posting your rogue. I am not massively familiar with rogues so if I make a mistake please let me know.
Quote:
Offence
I am going to assume you will mostly be using the sap in order to gain the benefit of increased sneak attack damage. While you do have the ability to generate your own sneak attack conditions with shattered defences and dazzling display/enforcer these both require a round of set up. This can seriously cut into your effectiveness if you have to spend a full round action using Dazzling Display, then on your next turn move and make a single attack. Enforcer is probably the better option allowing you to move and attack on turn 1 without SA and gain the benefit on subsequent turns.
As such I will provide your damage numbers both with and without sneak attack and leave it for you to decide how often you think you will be able to apply them. However, bear in mind that both are dependant on you making the Intimidate check and the DC is 10+targets HD +targets wis modifier. For our fire giant that is DC27 but you take a -4 penalty for being smaller than him. That is only a 50% chance of success against an equal CR opponent. Lots of enemies at level 10+ are bigger than you.
DPR without SA: 10.97
DPR with SA: 66.18
So even with sneak attack damage it is really less than spectacular and that is including the -2 defences from shaken. It probably takes you 3 rounds to take out the giant assuming you move in and hit using enforcer and then full attack for two rounds. That also assumes you make the Intimidate. If you fail the check then you are in real trouble. Also if you meet anything which cannot be intimidated (swarms, golems, undead?)
Quote:
Defence
AC26 is pretty decent for level 10. The giants DPR is as follows:
With power attack: 45.54
Without power attack: 46.26
Either way you cant survive more than two rounds toe to toe with it. Assuming it charges you and its initial attack does nearly 29 damage. If you try to stay in melee then with 83hp you are down to single digits after its first full attack which could easily swing into unconsciousness. A power attack crit is dealing 69 damage on its own to you.
For saves with 9/15/11 you fail the poison save 55% of the time and only have a 20% chance of throwing off the poison. With con 14 it probably wont kill you on its own. You avoid the dragons breath entirely 85% of the time but are plane shifted to hell 40% of the time.
With a CMB of 24 the Bebilith destroys our armour and shield automatically and the flytrap grabs you on a 1. The Golem provokes and you hit it on a 9 but with 10 average damage it still grapples you on a 13.
Quote:
Skill Challenges
You really struggle here. You can make the disable device on a 15, Intimidate on a 13, Sense Motive on a 14, Swim on a 15, Knowledge: Dungeoneering on an 8 and the Stealth on an 11 if you use a ki point. The rest are largely either auto fail or have a chance of 20% or less. You can negate the Acrobatics with the Decoy ring which can also help with getting SA every other round if something is immune to intimidate or you cannot get flank but otherwise you struggle.
I use the decoy ring to open, and withdraw into range invisibly.
For my DPR, are you also including the +20 damage I get when I roll sneak attack (10d6 if flat footed, +2 damage per die).
I think actually level 11 this character is way more powerful, because he takes extra rogue trick > vanishing trick, and then swapping to two weapon fighting eventually. I wonder if a fighter level is worth it for more feats? I am not sure, because it shanks my skill points
I think it is important because against things that can be intimidated I have a good chance to make them shaken right away, which is nice, and also making them flat footed.
I agree this char is super boned against constructs, undead, etc. At least I have a way to get into a potential flanking position on my own without relying on tumbling, which I think is nice
Yeah the ring is useful but you are saving yourself one potential opportunity attack from large creatures while losing a round of attacks and an earlier set up with enforcer. I think the bigger issue you have is the relatively low chance of a successful intimidate. Have a look at some of the DC's at CR10 (including size modifier):
DC21 Rakshasa
DC26 Young Red Dragon
DC27 Bebilith
DC28 Young Silver Dragon
DC29 Adult White Dragon
DC30 Couatl
DC30 Guardian Naga
DC31 Fire Giant
Across the two CR's you are looking at an average DC of 29. That knocks about 40% off your expected sneak attack damage taking it from 76 to about 45. It will actually be lower than that as if you fail to shake them then you are also needing another +2 to hit.
I would strongly recommend finding some sort of Intimidate boosting magic item. Unfortunately they don't seem to be common. Circlet of Persuasion would have been a good choice but you have switched your stat to Int. Holy Mask of the Living God will give you +2 for 2.1k. The other options are really too expensive.
The other issue you have is that you have invested so much into the combat side of things that you have really neglected the skill side. Your skills generally are rather low for your level and you are hitting few of our target numbers. Given you lack other options for avoiding them that could well be an issue. Proper consumable choice will be critical and you lack the UMD to reliably use scrolls. Your chance of activating a level 1 scroll if only 55%.
It's kind of off topic, but since when did offense and defense have a c in them? Is this an English thing I'm unaware of?
Since they were created as words within the English language. The same way that coloUr and armoUr both have a U in them. You colonial bastardisation of my mother tongue is however a rather off topic issue.
I will look to post a couple of example benchmark characters when I get in from work tonight.
I would remind you that pronouncing ask as aks started in England, friend.
Big Boom A Doom
Male Elf Wizard 10
LG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +10; Senses low-light vision; Perception +16
Aura elemental manipulation
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 92 (10d6+50)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 10th; concentration +18):
5th—inten maxim fireball [S] (DC 21), inten maxim fireball (2, DC 21), overland flight
4th—dimension door, emergency force sphere, greater invisibility, maxim fireball [S] (DC 21), maxim fireball (2, DC 21)
3rd—dispel magic, empow fireball [S] (DC 21), empow fireball (4, DC 21)
2nd—flaming sphere (2, DC 21), glitterdust (DC 20), invisibility, scorching ray [S], scorching ray (2)
1st—burning hands [S] (DC 20), burning hands (2, DC 20), ear-piercing scream (DC 20), endure elements, mage armor, vanish
0 (at will)—detect magic, mage hand, ray of frost, read magic
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 26, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Empower Spell, Improved Initiative, Intensified Spell, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Specialization, Toughness
Traits magical lineage, wayang spell hunter
Skills Diplomacy +8, Fly +7, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +21, Knowledge (nature) +21, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +21, Perception +16, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +21 (+23 to determine the properties of a magic item), Stealth +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
SQ arcane bonds (arcane bond [familiar]), arcane focus, elven magic, intense spells, opposition schools (enchantment, necromancy), specialized schools (admixture), versatile evocation
Combat Gear extend metamagic rod, selective metamagic rod (lesser); Other Gear belt of mighty constitution +4, cloak of resistance +4, headband of vast intelligence +4
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Special Abilities
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Admixture Associated School: Evocation
Arcane Focus +2 to concentration checks to cast arcane spells defensively.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Elemental Manipulation (10 rounds/day) (Su) 30' Aura changes a chosen energy type into another chosen energy type.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Empower Spell Numeric effects of a spell are increased 50%. +2 Levels.
Enchantment You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Enchantment school.
Extend metamagic rod (3/day) Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat. Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower.
Construction
Requirements: Craft Rod, Extend Spell feat; Cost 5,500 gp
Familiar Bonus: +4 to Initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Flight (40 feet, Average) You can fly!
Intense Spells +5 (Su) Evocation spells deal listed extra damage.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Lineage (Fireball) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Maximize Spell All variable effects of a spell are maximized. +3 Levels.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Selective metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day) The wielder can cast up to three spells per day as though using the Selective Spell feat. For each spell, he can select up to four creatures of his choice within the area that are unaffected.
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.
Construction
Requirements Craft Rod, Selective Spell; Cost 1,500 gp
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Focus (Evocation) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Specialization (Fireball) Pick one spell and cast it as if you were higher level
Versatile Evocation (11/day) (Su) Change the damage type and descriptor of a spell from acid, electricity, fire, or water to any other of those types.
Wayang Spell Hunter (Fireball) Reduce spell level increase from metamagic for chosen spell by 1.
I pretty much go all in on fireballs, and they do a lot of damage.
Hmm, my favourite rogue builds involve fun with teamwork feats. Would it be acceptable to submit one of those for this thread, or is the expectation that an acceptable character needs to be capable of doing everything by themselves with no backup from the party?
(Also I assume this is point buy? How many points do we have to work with?)
In America its a common mistake for people to use a c I.e. like posters at a sports game: defense is spelled with a c since its pronounced "D-fence" when its a noun.
This is why I asked because in the U.S. that's incorrect. "Your" language is largely just a bastardisation of french and others so no need to get butthurt.
If you notice its usually the letter "D" with "fence" over some white pickets, resulting in a drunken fan's best attempt at clever wordplay. I have an unhealthy feeling of agitation every time I see it in the crowd -_-.
I think it is important because against things that can be intimidated I have a good chance to make them shaken right away, which is nice, and also making them flat footed.
I agree this char is super boned against constructs, undead, etc. At least I have a way to get into a potential flanking position on my own without relying on tumbling, which I think is nice
OK, I re-ran your numbers assuming the following:
Round 1: Withdraw into position, you are invisible at this point, I am assuming no flanking for now. You deny the target their dex bonus and get +2 to hit but cannot attack as withdraw is a full round action.
Round 2: Full attack, you get sneak attack due to invisibility assuming the target has no way to see you. Your first hit does an average of 53.62 damage with a 50% chance to shake. You are now visible so no longer gaining sneak attack if you are not flanking unless you apply shaken. You second attack does 3.58 damage on average if you fail to shake your target. If you do shake it then you are looking at 30.16. So your best outcome is about 84dpr if you sacrifice your first turn moving into position. You are still looking at easily three, maybe four rounds to kill the giant and I suspect you might find hitting those Intimidate DC's very annoying. Any even slightly unlucky streak will see you seriously suffering as you lose almost all of your damage.
I will have a look at the Wizard tonight when I am back from work.
Hmm, my favourite rogue builds involve fun with teamwork feats. Would it be acceptable to submit one of those for this thread, or is the expectation that an acceptable character needs to be capable of doing everything by themselves with no backup from the party?
(Also I assume this is point buy? How many points do we have to work with?)
I think that the issue with teamwork feats is that you cannot necessarily guanratee you will have someone on your team who will also have them. I tend not to include them in an individual characters analysis.
It's a bit sloppy but basically between paragon surge and evolution surge, any skill automatically starts off at +11 even if not trained. not enough for somethings, but to be frank who caresabout doing acrobatics past a creature? Fly over it. Stealth? +10 from invis and these two get a +21 with zero ranks. Disable Device is trained,so it's up at +29 and with mummys mask trait, can disable magical traps as if a rogue.
The dmg is standard for an enlarged eidolon.
Spoiler:
I'll give the rough outline here rather than specifics. Half-elf synthesist summoner
(93k available with crafting rules presented)
Gear Ring of Spell Knowledge 4 (to learn paragon surge on summoner list)24k
amulet of mighty fists +3 (36k)
bracers of armor +4 16k
trapspringers gloves 5.5k
Dusty rose ioun in wayfinder 5.5k (+1 insight and +2 cmd/cmb)
Jingasa of fortunate warrior +1 ac
Traits: mummy mask trait that gives trapfinding as rogue
Eyes and ears of city (perception as class)
Skills: you obviously have to decide what to do or not, acrobatics is not one we're going to worry about. You can cast Paragon surge to get any feat as you want and evolution surge to get skilled in any... so between the spell and evolution surge any skill is at +11.
we get 4 ranks per level so we'd put 10 ranks into acrobatics and perception to get most out of skill focus. (and for it to always be going because you can't plan to use those as well)
then we'd toss out 1 rank into the rest of trained skills.
(perception is highest at +28)
our evolutions are large, limbs (4), claws (2), bite, large, skilled perception, and imp armorx3, perfect flight
While fused we have stats of
str 24 +7
dex 14 +2
con 19
int 14
wis 10
cha 16
AC 39 (assumed natural armor cast and protection from evil/etc)
CMB +19
CMD 22
Fort/ref/will 7/5/7 (saves could be shorn up if you want, but spells can make up for it in this scenario iefire immunity, dimensional anchor, etc.)
-2 fly, -4 stealth while fused.
Combat, +18 to hit with 5 primary attacks, for 1d8+10dmg each bypass silver/cold iron.
Obviously we dont care about your chance to hit things in melee, the issue is how much damage are you pumping out in a round. That is complicated by having spells at different levels so I will look at your damage over spell levels 3-5. Your base DC is 22 (the 21 doesnt include spell focus for some reason) but you have a problem in that you lack many ways to target other defences. As such you may have to face high defence opponents. Good save is +13, bad save is +9. That gives you 40/60% of affecting them.
Spell Level 3:
Empowered Fireball, 15d6+5, average damage 57.5
Good save opponent: 0.4(57.5) + 0.6(28.75) = 40 expected dpr
Bad save opponent: 0.6(57.5) +0.4(28.75) = 46 expected dpr
CR10 opponents have around 130hp which means you are probably taking 3 spells to take them out. You are at least probably hitting most enemies.
Spell Level 4:
Maximised Fireball, 65 damage
Good save opponent: 0.4(65) + 0.6(32.5) = 45.5 expected dpr
Bad save opponent: 0.6(65) + 0.4(32.5) = 52 expected dpr
So you are still taking three rounds to kill an equal CR opponent on your own
Spell Level 5:
Intensified Maximised Fireball, 77 damage
Good save opponent: 0.4(77) +0.6(38.5)=54 expected dpr
Bad save opponent: 0.6(77) + 0.4(38.5) = 61.6 expected dpr
So, even with your highest level spell slots you are still taking at least two rounds to finish off the giant. Compare that to an 80%+ chance of landing a save or suck which Casimir is running.
However, if you went Crossblooded Sorcerer1/Wizard 9 your level 3 spell slots would be full of these:
Empowered Fireball: 1.5(10d6+25), average damage 105
Good save opponent: 0.4(105) +0.6(52.5) = 73.5 expected dpr
Bad save opponent: 0.6(105) + 0.4(52.5) = 84 expected dpr
You are getting far more offence out of your spells but you will be a level behind.
Finally note that your Rods only work for the spells in the level three spell slots following the metamagic FAQ.
Quote:
Defence
AC16 means you are automatically hit pretty much in melee. The giants expected dpr versus you in over 97 which means a full attack from an equal CR creature will kill you. You do have flight but you only have one copy memorised. It is extended but if it was dispelled then you are in trouble. Likewise if you find yourself within reach due to low ceilings or something you may be vulnerable. The rest of your spell list probably doesnt have quite enough defence on it especially as you dont have any listed scrolls. I would definately be packing a range of invisibility, mirror image and other defensive scrolls. EFS is great but again with only 1 you had better hope the adventuring day is short.
Quote:
Skill Challenges
You can easily make the following:
Acrobatics can be avoided with an automatically defensively cast Vanish or Invisibility. If you need to Dimension Door then you need a 4 which may be a risk. You bypass Climb with Overland Flight and possibly Swim provided you dont need to go underwater. You auto identify any CR12 creature with the exception of humanoids (they use Local). I would grab a rank in the remaining skills. You need a 15 for sense motive and a 7 for spellcraft. You can bypass the Fly with Dimension Door and make the Stealth check with Insisibility or Vanish. If you picked up the very cheap Eyes of the Eagle you would make the Perception check on a 13. So you are looking at around 9 of the 21 challenges which is not bad. You can probably deal with the Intimidate with an enchantment although you have barred the school so it costs you 2 slots.
Remember for the fire giant I have to switch to cold, which means I do 50% more per fireball. He does suck against single opponents but against two or more his damage explodes. I feel you should include cr 10 encounters of a bunch of bandits or whatever, instead of one guy.
Also yes I am probably going to pack a bunch of cheap scrolls, maybe I should sorcerer dip but after I get fireball.
For the Wizard I used generic numbers rather than the Fire Giant. Certainly you jump up when you can take advantage of a vulnerability which is a major benefit. Lets say that you are facing a CR12 encounter composed entirely of CR8 enemies. That by the book is four opponents. CR8 basic stats are:
Good save: 11
Bad Save: 7
HP: 100
Your expected damage with the level 3 empowered fireball is:
Good save: 0.5(57.5) + 0.5(28.75) = 43
Bad save: 0.7(57.5) + 0.3(28.75) = 49
You are still looking at at least two rounds to take out the group. The problem with this approach of course is that HP are a binary state, enemies either have some left and are capable of acting or dont and cannot. Leaving things heavily injured might give your companions a chance to finish them off but if that ally is, say, a pouncing Druid they can probably do so without the help.
This is a big part of the reason why control is generally much more effective as a spell casting tactic. If we encounter say a group of 4 CR8 Stone Giants and I incapacitate two of them with Glitterdust for the duration of the fight that is having a much greater impact on the overall battle than dropping two, maybe three, of them to half HP.
The crossblooded dip is standard for anyone who want to deal with serious blasting focused on damage. You dont take sage, you take orc/draconic. Adding +2/dice rolled is a major boost to overall damage.
However, you will be a level behind the Wizard on access to new spell levels. That means he will be able to start using a new level of metamagic effect a level before you. So he gets to Dazing Fireball at 7 for example.
It probably has slightly less impact on the damage side as you will mostly be using Empower so the difference only crops up at 5-6 but it can be annoying.
You could also do this as straight crossblooded sorcerer. I personally wouldn't as the number of spells you lose access to is simply too great and you have to wait another level for access to higher level spells (although not slots).
I think losing 9 damage is ok, for a utility spell(Protection from evil best spell in the game) 4x per day and no loss in skill points.
It also affects whether they save against dazing, which I would do eventually, and that is nice.
EDIT: I'll be posting more random guys, warpriest vs cleric, some fighters, etc. but maybe other people can post some builds lol? I really like reading how effective they are solo but maybe that is just me
War Battler
Human Warpriest of Cayden Cailean 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +19
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+10 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 103 (10d8+50)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +14
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 holy bardiche +15/+10 (1d10+14/19-20+2d6 vs. Evil)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +10/+5 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 2/day (DC 15, 3d6)
Warpriest Spells Prepared (CL 10th; concentration +13):
4th—air walk
3rd—dispel magic, invisibility purge, magic vestment, protection from energy
2nd—grace, protection from outsiders, resist energy, silence (DC 15), weapon of awe (DC 15)
1st—divine favor (3), protection from evil (2), shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, read magic, stabilize
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training, Furious Focus, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perception), Toughness, Weapon Focus (bardiche)
Traits fate's favored, reactionary
Skills Climb +4, Diplomacy +7, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +19, Spellcraft +8, Survival +7, Swim +4
Languages Common
SQ agile feet, aura, blessings, dimensional hop, Fervor 3d6, Sacred Armor +2, Sacred Weapon +3, blessings (strength blessing, travel blessing), stength of will, strength surge
Other Gear +1 full plate, +1 adaptive composite longbow, +1 holy bardiche, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +2, handy haversack, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +2, 1,637 gp
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Special Abilities
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Agile Feet (Su) As a free action, ignore difficult terrain penalties for 1 rd.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Blessings (8/day) (Su) A warpriest’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. Each warpriest can select two blessings from among those granted by his deity (each deity grants the blessings tied to its domains). A warpri
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dimensional Hop (Su) As a move action, teleport 10 ft per point spent with no AoO. Bring others for equal cost.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Fervor 3d6 (5/day) (Su) Standard action, touch channels positive/negative energy to heal or harm. Swift to cast spell on self.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sacred Armor +2 (10 minutes/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant armor enhancement bonus or certain powers.
Sacred Weapon +3 (10 rounds/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant weapon enhancement bonus or certain powers.
Stength of Will (Su) As a swift action, not slowed by armor/encumberance & add Str to save vs paralysis/slow for 1 min.
Strength Surge +5 (Su) As a swift action, gain a +5 bonus to melee att, CMB, Str skills, and Str checks.
Warpriest Channel Positive Energy 3d6 (2/day) (DC 15) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
VS
Battle Cleric:
Battle Cleric
Human Cleric of Cayden Cailean 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 103 (10d8+50)
Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +13
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 holy longspear +12/+7 (1d8+15/×3+2d6 vs. Evil)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 3/day (DC 15, 5d6), ferocious strike, might of the gods (+10, 10 rounds/day)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +13)
20/day—dimensional hop
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 10th; concentration +13):
5th—fickle winds, plane shift (DC 18), righteous might [D]
4th—dimension door [D], divine power, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon
3rd—dispel magic (2), fly [D], invisibility purge, magic vestment
2nd—bull's strength [D], effortless armor, grace, resist energy, silence (DC 15), weapon of awe (DC 15)
1st—divine favor (2), enlarge person [D] (DC 14), protection from evil (2), shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, guidance, light, read magic
[D] Domain spell; Domains Ferocity, Strength, Travel
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 26
Feats Combat Reflexes, Furious Focus, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Toughness
Traits fate's favored, reactionary
Skills Diplomacy +4, Knowledge (planes) +7, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +13, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +8
Languages Common
SQ agile feet (6/day), aura, domains (ferocity, travel)
Other Gear +1 four-mirror, +1 holy longspear, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +3, handy haversack, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +2, 1,500 gp
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Special Abilities
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Agile Feet (6/day) (Su) For 1 rd, you ignore difficult terrain.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (3/day) (DC 15) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Ferocity) Associated Domain: Strength
Cleric Domain (Travel) Granted Powers: You are an explorer and find enlightenment in the simple joy of travel, be it by foot or conveyance or magic. Increase your base speed by 10 feet.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dimensional Hop (100/day) (20/day) (Sp) Teleport 100'/day.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Ferocious Strike (+5) (6/day) (Su) +5 damage for a melee attack.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Might of the Gods (10 rounds/day) (Su) Add your cleric level to your STR for checks.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
I think this is actually pretty close. The war priest obviously can fight better, but battle cleric has some powerful things (Thank you based cayden for travel and ferocity). Travel domain is obviously insane, with move action teleports all over the place, and he moves like a fighter. He also gets righteous might and divine power, which is pretty damn nice opening buffs.
Both these guys are looking for many AoOs, and they seem pretty good, maybe andreww will tell me otherwise!
OK, this is another Rogue. This one is from Marthkus over on the Rogue versus Bard thread.
Quote:
Offence
This character is only generating its own sneak attack using improved feint which costs him his move action limiting him to one attack.
+15/10 1d6+1+5d6 sneak attack
Versus AC24 he is looking at the following numbers:
Full attack without sneak attack: 4.91
Single sneak attack due to feinting (still AC24): 13.60
Full sneak attack from flanking (still AC24 but at +2): 26.07
So on his best version he is dealing about a fifth of a single CR10 opponents HP per round. He does applies 5 bleed but it is such a low amount it is not likely to matter. He has Combat Reflexes but without reach he has little chance of taking advantage of many of those attacks.
Added to this problem you do not have darkvision and you lack a way to sneak attack a target with concealment. Any form of darkness, fog, mist or cloud effect is going to render you completely irrelevant in combat. While it is easy for you to carry around potions or scrolls of darkvision they provide no benefit against things like fog effects which are common. There is a reason Shadow Strike is generally considered a rogue feat tax.
Quote:
Defence
With AC25 the Giant is looking at an average dpr of 52. With 73hp you don't last two rounds and could actually be killed in a single round if you get at all unlucky. A single power attack crit is doing around 69 damage. A single normal hit following it outright kills you.
On saves you are looking at failing the fortitude save 55% of the time, only a 20% chance to make two in a row. The reflex save is easy for you but you are looking at a 60% chance of being plane shifted to hell.
On the manoeuvre side with a CMD of 25 your chance to avoid any of them is very slim.
So overall not terrible, you have a strong chance of hitting 6 of them, at least a throw of the dice on 2 more. However, it does seem like you have sacrificed an enormous amount in the combat side in order to achieve even this level of competence across these areas.
Spoiler:
Male Human Rogue 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 18, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +7 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +17 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Special Qualities rogue talents (bleeding attack, combat trick, fast stealth, finesse rogue, skill mastery), trapfinding +5
Other Gear +3 darkleaf cloth studded leather, +1 rapier, +1 shortbow, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of elvenkind, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, gloves of larceny, handy haversack, hat of disguise, ring of protection +1, ring of sustenance, thieves' tools, masterwork, climbers kit
I think losing 9 damage is ok, for a utility spell(Protection from evil best spell in the game) 4x per day and no loss in skill points.
It also affects whether they save against dazing, which I would do eventually, and that is nice.
EDIT: I'll be posting more random guys, warpriest vs cleric, some fighters, etc. but maybe other people can post some builds lol? I really like reading how effective they are solo but maybe that is just me
Bear in mind that is 9 damage on your most basic spell. If you were throwing Intensified Empowered Fireballs with Varisian Tattoo and a Burning Robe you are looking at the difference between:
1.5(14d6+19) or 102 on average versus
1.5(14d6+33) or 123 on average
It really does start to stack up.
Orc/Draconic is definitely the better dip than Sage/Draconic for pure damage. If you went down the Dazing spell control route then straight up Sage Sorcerer or Arcanist is better.
I am afraid I am really not familiar enough with Warpriests to be able to comment on them. The Cleric seems to have made some dubious choices, Toughness and Lightning Reflexes could both probably be something better (Quicken for Divine Favour is often a good option, especially with Magical Lineage) and maybe Extend Spell. I would have done his gear very differently as well. If I have time I may pit together a variant on this build and see what happens.
Hmm, my favourite rogue builds involve fun with teamwork feats. Would it be acceptable to submit one of those for this thread, or is the expectation that an acceptable character needs to be capable of doing everything by themselves with no backup from the party?
(Also I assume this is point buy? How many points do we have to work with?)
I think that the issue with teamwork feats is that you cannot necessarily guanratee you will have someone on your team who will also have them. I tend not to include them in an individual characters analysis.
The point buy value is the standard 20.
I'm not sure I understand. How can you not necessarily guarantee that someone on your team will also have teamwork feats? Since this is a build exercise, wouldn't the presence of teamwork feats in a build imply that at least one ally has been confirmed to also have those feats? Why would they be in the build at all if there wasn't a 100% certainty that someone else on the team has them? We're not just flinging any of the other feats into our builds at random and hoping that they work, so why would we be doing so with the teamwork feats?
Are we assuming there's absolutely zero coordination between players in their builds and strategies? Why are we assuming this? The standard for Pathfinder is generally a party of multiple allied PCs, so why are the PCs being assessed as if they have no allies?
Well... That makes things a bit difficult for most of my Rogue ideas, I suppose, but I'll see what I can do with it. The class is really well-suited to being a melee support and working with others, doing things like turning an allied full-BAB melee fighter's advantage at melee into even more of an advantage. To keep the character in a vacuum and try to play lone-wolf with them denies them the opportunity to do the things they're really suited to, and interferes with the most reliable method of doing what they're good at, that method being flanking (which is easy to achieve nearly 100% of the time as long as your fellow players aren't completely brainless).
I have a Ninja 7/Witch 1. I extrapolated a Ninja 10 and this is what I got:
Offense
AC 24: Base 15/10(/15) or 15/15/10(/15), Conditional +1 (Trait), Conditional +2 (Flank), Conditional +2 (Denied Dex)
Denied Dex if cannot see invisible
Ignoring surprise round
Worst full attack no SA: 3.82375 = 34 rounds
best full attack no SA & Ki: 11.06875 = 12 rounds
Worst full attack SA: 20.44875 = 7 rounds
best full attack SA & Ki: 59.19375 = 3 rounds
saves: no spells
Dmg: 1d6+SA 18/x3
Defense
PA 24.451875 = 3 rounds
No PA 24.0975 = 3 rounds
Invisible Blade gave 50% miss chance, hence the low numbers here.
I could probably solo the critter. I would not engage without Invisible blade, and I might survive longer by 5' stepping to make the critter maybe hit the wrong square and dropping its DPS. I can also try Shadow Clone to up the miss chance, but it might not be as effective due to diminishing returns. If I switched to ranged, I could cause it to be even less likely to hit me.
Fort: 24% 2 saves vs Naga, with 7.5 average con damage; dead after 5 rounds otherwise; probably dead to damage and con loss first.
Ref: 85% save vs Dragon, with 18.55 average damage, if it can see the right square (not sure if Invisible Blade works here)
Will: 35% resist vs Couatl
Skills:
DC39 Acrobatics: 50% success (uses Ki for speed boost) or Invisible Blade to avoide issue
DC32 Bluff: 50%
DC35 Climb: Fail, but can jump ~19.25' if that helps; also have feather step slippers to help'
DC33 Diplomacy: 65%, but I would try to make it friendly/helpful first.
DC35 Disable Device: 10%
DC38 Disguise: 35%, but I would probably try invisible stealth instead
DC35 Escape Artist: Fail
DC28 Fly: Fail
DC35 Handle Animal: Fail
DC24 Heal: Fail
DC33 Intimidate: Fail, would try Diplomacy instead
DC22 Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering, geography, religion): 10%
DC22 Knowledge (arcana, history, nature, nobility): 30%
DC22 Knowledge (local): 35%
DC22 Knowledge (planes): 40%
DC34 Perception: 25%
DC30 Ride: Fail
DC29 Sense Motive: Fail, but I would try to bluff it into thinking I caught it out.
DC34 Sleight of Hand: Fail, but I would probably try invisible stealth instead
DC28 Spellcraft: 20%
DC33 Stealth: 55% or Auto with Invisible Blade
DC35 Survival: Fail
DC20 Swim: Auto, plus I got a cloak of the manta ray with a swim speed
DC34 Use Magic Device: 50%, I have the CHA to cast, but need Int or Wis at 60% to hit. What stat does a non-caster use? :-)
Discoveries: Whatever you want, take infusion and Mutagen at some point though.
Gear:
+1 Agile Light Mace
+1 Agile Dagger
Cloak of Resistance +3
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves
+3 Shadow Mithril Chainshirt
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Ring of Protection +1
Wayfinder equipped with Clear Spindle
Approximately 900 gold remaining
Special Abilities:
Sneak Attack 5d6
Bardic Knowledge +1
Cognatogen
Alchemy
Brew Potion
Perfect Recall
Master Explorer
Skills(112 points):
Consider all abilities at an extra +2 over what is noted to account for Heroism.
DEFENSES
HP: 78
AC: 24(31 with Mutagen boosting Dex and Barkskin)
Fort:+11(+6 vs Poison) Ref:+14 Will:+6(Immune to possesions and mental control)
Buffed Saves are: Fort +13 Ref +16 Will +8(+2 vs Mind Affecting)
+2 vs Death Effects
OFFENSES:
This guy gets completely outrageous with buffs.
Melee Attack Bonus: +10/+10/+5 (+6 BAB +1 Wpn +5 Dex)
Ranged Attack Bonus: +12/+6
Full Buffed Attack Bonus: +15/+15/+10 Breakdown: 6(BAB)+7(Dex)+1(Wpn)+2(Morale)+1(Haste)
Buffs: Heroism, Mutagen, Haste, (He can supply himself with all of these)
Damage: 1d6+10+5d6, 1d6+10+5d6 and 1d4+10+5d6 or 1d4+10+5d6, 1d4+10+5d6 and 1d6+10+5d6 However one of these is likely to be dropped to feint.
Offense: Solid stuff not much to say at 10th level. Next level he gets Greater Invisibility which causes his DPR to skyrocket. Drops his first attack to feint. With invisibility he can close in and get a free hit in with a solid chance of connecting(Only failing on a 4 or worse). Duel of initiative here. If the Alchemist wins here(And it's likely against say, the Fire Giant) he eviscerates it dealing 70-80ish damage which combined with the surprise attack, leaves it at about 30 HP and seriously considering fleeing if it's intelligent. Next round, he feints it up and deals another two hits averaging about 40ish damage.
I don't target saves.
Defense: Gadrick totes a mighty 35 AC. The Fire Giant's best attack roll hits on a 14 or better.
Gadrick saves on a 2 or higher vs the Naga Poison.
Gadrick saves on a 3 or higher vs the Fire breath and likely has Resist Fire as well.
Gadrick saves on a 12 or higher vs Plane Shift. This is a scary threat to him.
Thankfully the Bebilith has a hard enough time even scratching Gadrick.
The Golem is a scary one, luckily Gadrick is likely to get a hit in. If he spends some of his leftover gold on an Adamantine Weapon Blanch for his mace, he should be able to penalize it enough to make it too difficult.
The Flytrap is an issue for Gadrick as well but with a buffed Escape Artist of +22, he has a 50/50 shot to free himself.
SKILLZ!
Acrobatics +22 so he needs a 17 or better. Not good.
Bluff +21 makes this challenge a lot easier. Succeeds on an 11 or a 9 if he uses his cognatogen.
Climb is solved by flight, climb speed or Burrow speed.
I am no diplomat
Disable Device is an auto success due to being able to take 10 and having a +29 to his check with Heroism and Mutagen.
Undead Anatomy I and Disguise Self work wonders here.
Escape Artist is a +22. Need a 13 or better.
Fly! +22 as well, 6 or higher needed.
Heal is subbed by Kn.Nature and easily accomplished. Cognatogen makes it guaranteed.
Kn.Nature is quite potent and he can bump all his untrained Knowledge skills to +11 with Cognatogen.
Perception is +31, he'll spot on a 3 or better.
Spellcraft is +19 or 21 with Cognatogen. Fairly easy. He'll take 10.
Stealth is +23 and I have Darkvision through a myriad of ways. Takes 10 through Master Explorer and auto success.
Swim is +11 but I can bump it up to +15 with light effort and a Strength Mutagen.
Use Magic Device is a +17 with Heroism and Cognatogen. Gotta get lucky here.
I have a synt. Summoner with out dump stats that Can win the figth but he Can only do 5 of the skills. And his saves wile all over 10 are not sure wins on the save things.
But i go on weekend trip now so i Will finish it and post it sunday ormaonday if this is still going by then. As he is now he have AC 42 and 2 attacks with+18 and pounce.
all the skills can get reasonably accomplished by paragon surge for skill focus and evolution surge to pick up skilled. (that's +11 to any skill for two spells)
Some of the others, like stealth etc are easily overcome by invisiblity.
all the skills can get reasonably accomplished by paragon surge for skill focus and evolution surge to pick up skilled. (that's +11 to any skill for two spells)
Some of the others, like stealth etc are easily overcome by invisiblity.
Some of the skill tasks are not gonna be done in 10 minutters. And others Will be impractical in the shape of a Giant demon Wolf:) And paragon surge Will need improved eldich heritage on a summoner and that is level 11 minimum.
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