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I think if there is a clergy that enforces celibacy, that would be the clergy of Asmodeus.
Asmodeus and the hierarchies of hell in general has always been described as highly misogynist.
Given that I think they may pretty well establish that no priest of Asmodeus should lower himself by finding pleasure in a woman.
And eventual female priests of Asmodeus...
If you add that the few female devils that managed to gain a position in hell are called Whore queens it speaks volumes about the level of contempt Asmodeus has for both women and sex.
For the same reason I think no female cleric of Asmodeus would be taken particularly seriously, just like nuns can't be bishops, or become popes.Just because one finds something contemptable doesn't mean one won't find gradification in it.
Misogynists are generally the most likely to bang anything they can. Violance, objectification, dominance all fit within his personality. Any union with him and another wouldn't be mutually rewarding or consentual.
I can see Asmodeus wanting his fallowers to have relations, as long as they're the ones in control or the only consenting party. The easiest way to get more fallowers is to breed them. Any sons would be taught to fallow in daddy's footsteps. To be subject to dad or the high preist until they can take control themselves. Daughters would be either killed or negelected until old enough to breed.
I agree... but still.. I believe they are the only one that may have a few compelling reasons to enforce celibacy to their clergy. While I can't find any for anyone else.
Basically .. the church of Asmodeus is a cautious "maybe they do enforce celibacy" while I have very little doubt that all the other faiths do not.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Chrispy denomination
This is just offensive.
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For the record, I really hate that Erastil was changed so easily to be relaxed in his ways. Other solutions should have been sought, but I guess I will always have my own games to run the way I like.
I could see several religions where one could find chaste clergy for any number of reasons. One does not always need to follow a strict code of chastity for life. I know of several groups in real life that have strict codes of conduct, like chastity, that are only followed for a limited period of time, like a few months or two years.
With that in mind, when I think of possible religions for codes of chastity Iomedae comes to mind. As does Pharasma, Erastil, Irori, and Shelyn.
Following a code of chastity in one religion might not be for the same reasons, or even done in the same manner, as that in another religion.
For example, Iomedae could have a crusader take an oath to keep them focused on an important cause. Romantic relationships take a great deal of energy and mind space, and may even give enemies something to exploit or use against you. And because Iomedae is Lawful she would probably discourage casual sexual encounters anyway. Instead I imagine she would have more of the standing that someone should control their desires and impulses, and share such experiences only with people they have real love for.
Erastil would be a good candidate for the doctrine of chastity before marriage. This would make sense in a number of ways for him. Because he is also Lawful sex would have a higher purpose than just as a form of release and satisfying desires. For some like him it would be both for the creation of children (growing the community,)and the expression of love and long term commitment to a person (strengthening a relationship with a life partner also strengthens the community.) While he may not have the stance that all people should wait until marriage, one could certainly say he preaches caution in choosing partners. He may also ask his clergy to follow the stricter path of waiting until marriage.
Pharasma is the goddess of death but she is also the goddess of birth and fate. Creating a child in a careless and casual encounter could be seen as a way of playing with the powers of fate. Aborting a child from such a situation may also be seen as horrific in that religion. I imagine that if there was any code of chastity in that religion it would be not nearly as strict as others. Sex would be for the creation of children within a situation that allows them to be raised and given the best possibility to face their fate and destiny. Because they would know so well that there isn't a perfect form of prevention, they may also preach chastity until marriage (or similar situation.)
Shelyn is a goddess of love, but she isn't the goddess of physical love. What I am about to suggest with this religion would be rare and unusual, but still probable. There may exist, probably only among the most devote, a vow of total chastity, even within the bonds of marriage. This would be to show that sex isn't the only form of expression of love, and not the most powerful. That one can be totally and completely devoted to a person, loyal and in love, but not need sex to maintain and express their feelings.
And lastly, Irori, who would, as someone suggested above, have chastity be a way of reserving energy for other pursuits. This religion may also have the widest forms of chastity. There is, for example, chastity of mind where you avoid thoughts related to sexual urges and pursuits, but still be able to participate when appropriate. There could also be avoiding certain activities (masturbation for example) to show control over your urges and natural desires. Basically, the pursuit of perfection having a path of controlling your body, urges, and desires.
I can see any of gods having some form of celibacy vow. If nothing else taking such a vow to show your devotion to the god or goddess you worship. While I see it being splinter sects or similar things and not being mainstream it would probably exist.
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You bring up two good points.
I did not consider that Pharasma would look at contraception as a form of manipulating fate. Good catch.
Yes, by RAW there are non-magical items that by the rules work 100% of the time to prevent pregnancy. These items, however, are items that I like to look at as good enough for game but not for story. The rules are simple because we don't need a complicated system to figure out if someone will get pregnant or not, with contraceptives that lower the probability with varying effectiveness. If a player doesn't want to have a child in the game these items are great reasons why that was prevented. However, these non-magical items would probably not be 100% effective if there was such a system, and any GM wishing to throw in a child plot twist can still do so. There are plenty of stories where prevention people thought would be 100% effective was used but failed to prevent a child. It even makes the twist more shocking.
So while the rules say one thing, sometimes the story may call for another. Therefore, I'll stick with my original statement of nothing being 100% effective. That said, it might be better to say that even the best methods are only 99% effective.
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Nethys could also have chaste priests, if only because you should be spending your time making magic, not babies.
Contraception is an example of natural law...but in a world with WALKING BRAIN EATING MONSTERS!!! natural law seems like a moot issue.
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Always kind of surprised me that there are no magical means of contraception. You could write it off as just something Paizo doesn't want to deal with, but with bachelor's snuff and night tea that doesn't really hold.
it likely exisits, but they figure that most spellcasters don't want to take up a spell slot with it, and most others don't want to fill up a magical item slot with a contraceptive charm.
Contraception is an example of natural law...but in a world with WALKING BRAIN EATING MONSTERS!!! natural law seems like a moot issue.
No. The WALKING BRAIN EATING MONSTERS are not covered by the OGL.
Intellect devourers don't walk? What do they use, pogo sticks?
You were meant to laugh.
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Why would Shelyn want her devotees to live in chasity? She's all about love. Not lust but love including the frickle-frackle sex thing.
Notice that I said it would be rare.
I do know of relationships that were like what I proposed, though generally it involved one partner still dealing with trauma or disease, making sexual activity too stressful or painful. In fact my own marriage used to have a similar situation until we were able to get the help we needed. During that time we learned how to express and grow our love in other ways. In fact it was our love for each other that kept us together during that difficult time.
While I don't know of anyone who has vowed to live in such a way in real life, I am sure it exists.
As for why Shelyn would ask someone to do such a thing, my answer is maybe she doesn't. Maybe it is something her believers have come up with and she just allows.
But maybe she would. Maybe she would require it but only for a limited time or only to give someone some special power. Maybe she requires it for an individual knowing that they or the person they love is dealing with trauma and pain and needs celibacy to heal. Maybe she asks someone to make the vow because they have relied too much on sex for the expression of love in the past, and now wants them to experience and learn new ways of expression.
I believe the point of such a vow would be to learn that love does not need sex, and sex does not need love. That certainly sounds like a lesson she might try to teach.
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Regarding Shelyn allowing for a vow of celibacy, I can speak from personal experience.
I was celibate until marriage. However, I had girlfriends, loves, the whole bit. But it turned out that I learned to be incredibly romantic. So much so that my exes all tried rekindle our romance a decade or more later. While I'm married. Even today, I end up having women--young and old--start having feelings for me. Thankfully, my wife is amused by all this (I'm staying faithful).
Sometimes, deciding that you're not going to have sex can transform the way you see your connection to someone else. Look up "courtly love" for an idea of what it can be like.
Frustrating? =)
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Regarding Shelyn allowing for a vow of celibacy, I can speak from personal experience.
I was celibate until marriage. However, I had girlfriends, loves, the whole bit. But it turned out that I learned to be incredibly romantic. So much so that my exes all tried rekindle our romance a decade or more later. While I'm married. Even today, I end up having women--young and old--start having feelings for me. Thankfully, my wife is amused by all this (I'm staying faithful).
Sometimes, deciding that you're not going to have sex can transform the way you see your connection to someone else. Look up "courtly love" for an idea of what it can be like.
Also what he said.
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Look up "courtly love" for an idea of what it can be like.
Frustrating? =)
( ._.)
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I think clerical celibacy is more likely a tenet of certain churches rather than certain faiths.
That is to say, the temple of Abadar in Magnimar may not require priests to be celibate, but the temple of Abadar in Absalom could. The requirement isn't from the deity his/herself but rather from the local leadership and their own interpretations of the tenets of the faith. It seems unlikely that most faiths have a single, unified worldwide hierarchy, so there is room for local variance.
Religious celibacy (and denial of the physical body in general) is more wide spread in RL than just the Catholic church, even in cultures that are generally less restrictive on sexual activity. So it makes sense that celibacy is found in Golorian religious practice, just that it isn't universal or even necessarily common.
The same could be said for fasting, prayer vigil, exposure to hallucinogenics, taboos, pilgrimage, mandatory giving/charity, dietary requirements, sacrifice (material, animal, or human), and other common-but-not universal religious practices.
IIt seems unlikely that most faiths have a single, unified worldwide hierarchy, so there is room for local variance.
Actually, it's not only likely, but required.
At the top of the hierarchy for the church of Sarenrae, for example, is Sarenrae herself. If a local church decides to adjust local practices in a way that she disapproves of, there will be immediate and obvious repercussions.
Remember that this is a world where the gods will, for fun, throw rocks through atheists' windows.
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IIt seems unlikely that most faiths have a single, unified worldwide hierarchy, so there is room for local variance.Actually, it's not only likely, but required.
At the top of the hierarchy for the church of Sarenrae, for example, is Sarenrae herself. If a local church decides to adjust local practices in a way that she disapproves of, there will be immediate and obvious repercussions.
Remember that this is a world where the gods will, for fun, throw rocks through atheists' windows.
Yet I'd imagine that most gods are silent on the celibacy issue because they don't care. Variation can occur when it's about an issue that isn't dogmatic. For example, Hellknights make oaths that the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes don't, and vice versa. They both have their roles to play in the greater scheme.
Different roles could easily call for different behaviors, and they would still both be parts of the whole organization, despite differences in practice.
Yet I'd imagine that most gods are silent on the celibacy issue because they don't care. Variation can occur when it's about an issue that isn't dogmatic. For example, Hellknights make oaths that the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes don't, and vice versa. They both have their roles to play in the greater scheme.Different roles could easily call for different behaviors, and they would still both be parts of the whole organization, despite differences in practice.
Agreed.
But this specifically opens the door to the dread "GM's call" rulings. I'd think that Shelyn would be strongly anti-celibacy and would so rule at my table, and probably Erastil as well (for different reasons; he would want his clergy to provide examples of strong family life, and wouldn't really care if you weren't in love with your spouse).
At your table, you can decide that Asmodeus thinks that sex is a distraction from the important things in life, like serving as his b*tch in all respects. Or not.
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Actually, it's not only likely, but required.At the top of the hierarchy for the church of Sarenrae, for example, is Sarenrae herself. If a local church decides to adjust local practices in a way that she disapproves of, there will be immediate and obvious repercussions.
That isn't what I meant, nor does it address situations we find in the material itself.
Yes, unsurprisingly, all the temples of Sarenrae "report to" Sarenrae.
But temple A in Absolam doesn't report to temple B in Qadira. There is no supreme pontiff to dictate what all followers of Sarenrae must do.
And since we have examples (Sarenrae herself is a good one) of schisms of belief within faiths without either side losing divine power, then there are obviously things that gods let their followers disagree over.
Take Abadar. He is worshipped in both Avistan, Garund, Tian Xia, and presumably Casmaron. There is no "Rome", or "Pope", or even diocese, bishops, etc for his faith on a world scale ala Catholicism. Even though they all follow Abadar. So it is likely that there will be variant tenets, practices, and beliefs amount his temples. And he is a Lawful deity, so Neutral or Chaotic deities' worshiper would probably diverge even more from one temple to another.
Thus, no world wide hierarchy, and celibacy is a matter of different churches, not necessarily different faiths.
There is no supreme pontiff to dictate what all followers of Sarenrae must do.
This is simply wrong. Sarenrae herself is more than capable of dictating what all of her followers must do. And if the head of the Qadiran temple presumes to disagree with her, she can depose him at will.
And since we have examples (Sarenrae herself is a good one) of schisms of belief within faiths without either side losing divine power, then there are obviously things that gods let their followers disagree over.
"Let" being the key word. It's up to your GM to make the call about whether Sarenrae demands celibacy -- if she does, any cleric who decides this demand is merely a suggestion instantly becomes an ex-cleric.
And Sarenrae, pretty much by definition, can't be the pontiff of her own church. Hint, pontiff means head priest.
You seem to not be getting the idea of a clerical hierarchy. Which is cool, but you are being argumentative about it. And not even really arguing the same point I am making.
Having a clerical hierarchy isn't saying the god is above any and all priests. That is what worship is. A hierarchy indicates that there is a chain of command with a priest at the top, then various levels of authority all the way down to lay worshipers. You know, like the Catholic, Orthodox and even some Protestant faiths.
Most faiths in Golarion seem to have at best a regional hierarchy (all temples of Asmodeus in Cheliax are probably part of a hierarchy). And some specifically have no hierarchy or organization at all.
This allows for variance in tenets, practices and beliefs, as demonstrated in the game world itself.
As far as the deity involving them self to dictate commands, this would only happen for things directly relevant to the deity's interests/portfolio. Gorum doesn't care if you have sex or not, so long as you uphold strength of arms.
So if Bob, High Priest of Gorum in Nex says sex is fine, Gorum doesn't care. And if Steve, High Priest of Gorum in Geb says no sex, Gorum doesn't care. Bob and Steve are both warriors of renown who encourage others to embrace combat, which is all Gorum does care about.
Ergo why I said it is church, not faith, dependent (though it would be more or less common in some faiths, can't imagine any celibate Lamashtu priests, and sex is involved in her core tenets).
I would imagine that lawful religions probably would be more dogmatic and less prone to variance between regions/temples. Chaotic churches would probably show a great deal of variation. Neutral would be any of the above, depending on the interests of the God.
Obviously a GM can run it any way he wants, but most likely a God is probably less concerned with minor differences in practices, as long as the key tenants of his portfolio are withheld. This is canon within Golarion; Look at the religious schism within the followers of Sarenae, or variance within the church of Pharasma. Also the 1 step from alignment rule; if Gods were such micromanagers, it's hard to see how their would be any variance in alignment of followers.
In my reading of the Inner Sea Gods the only god that it mention about celibacy clergy is Gozreh...where it states zealous prists often remain celibate to be able to devote more energy to their deity. So far that is the only reference I can find...