Goblin Squad Member
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Doesn't the desire to 'untrain' a skill mimic the regret we feel in life for unfortunate choices we have made? That regret doesn't permit us to 'unchoose'. It is called 'learning'. It is thought to yield wisdom.
Possibly there might be an attribute (like, oh say Wisdom) that might accrue from such 'untraining'.
That is an interesting notion. It should be at a loss though, else the problem would be the same: something that is supposed to be built over time becomes available in bulk all of a sudden (in this case +Wis). I like the tapered approach of how characters get built.
The fact that it comes at a loss could be good for GW, since it means characters will be "set back" in time in return of a small boon to Wis. So people will build longer on a specific character.
But if you go this route, then people will somehow want the same for Int, Str, Con and so forth. If you could come up with a rationale for those too..... :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doesn't the desire to 'untrain' a skill mimic the regret we feel in life for unfortunate choices we have made? That regret doesn't permit us to 'unchoose'. It is called 'learning'. It is thought to yield wisdom.
Possibly there might be an attribute (like, oh say Wisdom) that might accrue from such 'untraining'.
That is an interesting notion. It should be at a loss though, else the problem would be the same: something that is supposed to be built over time becomes available in bulk all of a sudden (in this case +Wis). I like the tapered approach of how characters get built.
The fact that it comes at a loss could be good for GW, since it means characters will be "set back" in time in return of a small boon to Wis. So people will build longer on a specific character.
But if you go this route, then people will somehow want the same for Int, Str, Con and so forth. If you could come up with a rationale for those too..... :)
I went back and edited my original thought to include an implied consequence to imbalancing one's attributes. I think it is an interesting thought, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But having the xp refunded would not really get you something back. They would never allow you to spend that XP in one go on another skill, this would completely fly against how XP and skilling up works. They would have to revise the entire system of XP being gained per hour, and then you buying skills when you have gathered enough XP *and* met other requisites (achievements, ability-scores).
So better leave that spent XP as it is and just go down another path with your character.
I'm not following. You have a pool of XP that increases every hour (so long as you are paid up and have it allocated to the character) that is spent to instantaneously learn skills when you have enough and meet the prereqs. An XP refund would just be an 'extra increment' - your XP total would be as if you had never spent it in the first place. The only complexity is checking to make sure you wouldn't break other pre-reqs and removing the ability score bonus you had earned from training it. It doesn't fly in the face of anything that I can see. This is not EvE where you train skills over time, this is PFO where you gain XP over time and then buy skills with it. The difference between a player that saves all of their XP from EE to OE and the player that spends it all and refunds it is that the player spending gets to experiment and participate meaningfully in the game until then. The only other difference is that maybe they'll be willing to pay Goblinworks a bit of extra cash to retrain into their chosen role once it becomes available.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Heh... Skill Untraining is something I could tolerate being in a cash shop. A real-money purchaseable item that allows you to untrain a skill and refund your XP spent on it. You would only be able to untrain skills that are not prerequisites to other trained skills. Being able to undo a training choice seems less Pay-To-Win than the idea of putting consumables or cosmetics on the storefront.
I bet there's a happy ground where one can untrain some, but not all, or can convert a small amount of XP to a type that can be used to "trial" skills; a trial skill could have the XP refunded a short time after untraining it, but must be converted to permanent before and dependent skills are trained.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mmm, yes, I see your point. I was thinking that because XP-gain seems to work as "being connected to a powersocket with a certain gain per hour" they must want the skills and attributes that it pays for to gradually increase also. But I guess it is more of a large tank for XP that slowly fills up while on the socket, then when you are ready to buy a new skill(thus met requisites), you scoop up some out of the tank and use it.
Are you sure it works this way for attributes too? I was sortof thinking these would actually gradually increase while on the XP-faucet, after off course you dedicated the xp-flow to a certain attribute.
Anyway, I think there was talk about a max of 6 months of accumulated XP (TBD) when they talked about how long we could delay choosing a Destinies Twin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attributes should raise as you train skills tied to the related attribute. So, theoretically, if you bought a year's worth of Wisdom skills all at once your Wisdom would increase drastically at that point.
And yeah, I do think they mentioned a cap of stored EXP as one consideration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attributes should raise as you train skills tied to the related attribute. So, theoretically, if you bought a year's worth of Wisdom skills all at once your Wisdom would increase drastically at that point.
And yeah, I do think they mentioned a cap of stored EXP as one consideration.
A cap of stored EXP would be a terrible idea unless that cap was a year's worth of XP. A lot of players will come and go from games. If a guy is taking a four month break from PFO, you want to incentivize him to keep his Sub running for those four months as opposed to stopping and re-subbing 4 months later.
Never penalize a player for paying you - even if they are not making maximum use of your service. That is just silly business logic.
Edit: I realized this came up in context of Destiny's Twin, which I can understand and be okay with. I had originally thought the context was for any given character on your account.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a future ranger, I expect to bank exp until ranger is in the game. I would not want warrior:archer skills that I cannot respec when the same skills from ranger also count towards ranger only abilities.
Likewise cleric skills on a future druid.I think it will matter a great deal, for a short time, right around the 2 year mark. I think that will be a time of sieges, and the loss of many player cities. Top 'tier' formation-combat leaders with max-skill, pure-role forces under their command should be able to cut through even organised foes with lesser skills. I believe that is the logical extension of 'formations beat mobs'.
It's all well and good to catch up to the skill gap in 'only' a month or so, but rebuilding a city will take longer than that.
Looking forward to EE, and beyond :D
I think you may have a misunderstanding here. We do not know that Fighter:Archer skills will be different from Ranger:Archer skills. In fact, I think the safer assumption is that they will not be. Rather there will be Archer skills that are applicable to roles X,Y, and Z. Under the archery subsection, there may be specialty skills, but you should be able to pick up general Archery skills and have them applicable to either Ranger or Fighter. Looking at it from a technical complexity aspect, you want to make as many shared features, such as weapon skill/proficiency as broadly generic as possible and then add your edge cases (Weapon Specialization) around the edges to hone in the flavor. For a ranger, I'd invest in some weapon skills, perception, a touch of stealth, and some non-heavy armor defensive skills. When you run out of ranger-y skills to take, you start banking until they add the role.
Your ideal strategies are going to be looking for those multi-role or otherwise general abilities. Druids and Monks may have the roughest road ahead, but it probably would not hurt for them to pick up some skills that increased Wisdom to make meeting their role-specific pre-requisites easier in...
Multi-role skills, sure, they'd be fine. Anything that fits the Strategy of getting a settlement and its sponsored companies siege-ready in the shortest possible time is fine.
This brings up another good point: WIll all the roles be in the game before we can start sieging each other ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This brings up another good point: WIll all the roles be in the game before we can start sieging each other ?
I'm not an official source, but I'd be willing to bet the answer is no; settlement warfare will likely be in before every single role is added (especially if we want to go into other Pathfinder source books: Summoner, Gunslinger, Ninja, etc.).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Both the classes I am wanting to play won't be ready at the start of EE (Paladin & Bard), so I will most likely make my 'paladin' a mix of fighter/cleric and let my twin accumulate xp until bard does come in (or maybe take a few rogue skills). At first I was all for a respec, but after thinking about it, those of us lucky enough to be in EE will get a good headstart anyways, and I don't think there will be skills so useless that if you take them thinking they will be useful for a futurerole and aren't they won't cripple you. It's either that or waiting it out until they do get added. Personally, I want to jump in as soon as I can (if not sooner)
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Goblin Squad Member
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When they described clerics as "healy" in this blog, I think that they were referring to the initial range of spells available, not that they couldn't smash some faces also.
This is an item I would like clarification on as I generally go for the clericy type characters.
Will a cleric be a viable path outside of a group, i.e. able to do enough damage to down an NPC or three or will they be totally dependent on a group and "stuck in town doing nothing" while waiting for one to form?
Will they be able to get some of the achievements needed to advance there class outside of a group or will they be perpetually beggers scrounging for a group to do anything?
i.e. will they suck as much as most of the early cleric/healer implementations in MMO's or have we finally moved past the stereotype of "if it can heal, it shouldn't be able to do any damage?
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Goblin Squad Member
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When they described clerics as "healy" in this blog, I think that they were referring to the initial range of spells available, not that they couldn't smash some faces also.This is an item I would like clarification on as I generally go for the clericy type characters.
Will a cleric be a viable path outside of a group, i.e. able to do enough damage to down an NPC or three or will they be totally dependent on a group and "stuck in town doing nothing" while waiting for one to form?
Will they be able to get some of the achievements needed to advance there class outside of a group or will they be perpetually beggers scrounging for a group to do anything?
i.e. will they suck as much as most of the early cleric/healer implementations in MMO's or have we finally moved past the stereotype of "if it can heal, it shouldn't be able to do any damage?
Basically the post of Ryan's above is what I meant. If there is a clear "role path" laid out for clerics (for dedication bonus), I'll bet that there is some melee ability allowance in there as well. Doesn't the blog before this describe clerics as front or near front rank actors? Not that there is usually a "front" in PVP. ;)
Other than that, you can design your build how YOU like.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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The reference in the video to Clerics being "Healy" is as opposed to "Buffy." Right now, we have heals working, but our selection of buffs is fairly limited. So initially, a cleric looking to help the group will likely heal more than buff. Once we get more buffs working, you'll probably spend more of your Power buffing than healing.
When you're not using support spells, you'll have access to the same range of general weapon attacks that make up most of what Fighters use, Cleric-specific offensive abilities, and armor feats targeted primarily at medium armor, so we expect you to play much more like a tabletop Cleric than a standard MMO priest.
But we can't promise whether any role will be particularly good at soloing. As we've said before, the game is designed around group play; while soloing is likely to be possible if you're careful, we're not trying to balance the game to ensure it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do remember the specific question being answered was how these classes will function in EE.
So, they probably see their minimum cleric as being healy. That's not to say the cleric will never be anything but healy, it's just that they likely feel the very minimum to achieve cleric-ness is a healing focused character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But having the xp refunded would not really get you something back. They would never allow you to spend that XP in one go on another skill, this would completely fly against how XP and skilling up works. (...)
What makes you say that?
If you have spare xp and meet the other prerequisites (prereq skills, in-game achievements, stats, possibly alignment), then you simply go to the trainer and 'cash in' your xp for skills.
Last I heard, lots of people are planning to hoard xp (on their destiny twin at least) waiting for particular class/roles to be implemented, then spending it all as fast as they can.
There could of course be cool-downs on trainers, and you could even declare that the in-game achievements must be earned after starting to train the skill (which I would think unfair). Even so, the bottleneck for skill training (at least for hardcore players) is the xp, and having 'refunded' xp would certainly make the skill training go faster and 'catch up' to those who started training your new skill branch at an earlier time.
So: of course it "gets you something back". Is it worth it? Meh... not to me. But for some people, absolutely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah! But the Bard's are wont to sing the Ballad of Sir Robin... and they get all the girls!
You're on fire atm Being or maybe you're just posting above "Fiery_Dervish"?
My question is how would it be possible to get audible singing as part of the Bards' musical repetoire? Ballads and Limericks and folk-tunes with Pathfinder pathos and humor and ribaldry and paens etc?
Would something need to be recorded in audio as soundtrack to play along with instumentation? It would be nice to fill taverns with such perhaps for Bards to "perform" some of their Sir Robin songs along with instruments actually played. Of course you'd need writers and half-good singers, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But having the xp refunded would not really get you something back. They would never allow you to spend that XP in one go on another skill, this would completely fly against how XP and skilling up works. (...)What makes you say that?
If you have spare xp and meet the other prerequisites (prereq skills, in-game achievements, stats, possibly alignment), then you simply go to the trainer and 'cash in' your xp for skills.
Last I heard, lots of people are planning to hoard xp (on their destiny twin at least) waiting for particular class/roles to be implemented, then spending it all as fast as they can.
There could of course be cool-downs on trainers, and you could even declare that the in-game achievements must be earned after starting to train the skill (which I would think unfair). Even so, the bottleneck for skill training (at least for hardcore players) is the xp, and having 'refunded' xp would certainly make the skill training go faster and 'catch up' to those who started training your new skill branch at an earlier time.
So: of course it "gets you something back". Is it worth it? Meh... not to me. But for some people, absolutely.
Yeah, I got that wrong, admitted to that in a post somewhere above. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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My question is how would it be possible to get audible singing as part of the Bards' musical repetoire? Ballads and Limericks and folk-tunes with Pathfinder pathos and humor and ribaldry and paens etc?Would something need to be recorded in audio as soundtrack to play along with instumentation? It would be nice to fill taverns with such perhaps for Bards to "perform" some of their Sir Robin songs along with instruments actually played. Of course you'd need writers and half-good singers, too.
I can imagine something like this in a distant future.
- a cloud either set up by gw or by a player group were people can submit audio files. probably in a standard format for example mp3.- the community can listen into and vote for there favourites.
- gw can from time to time look at the top tracks and implement the ones they are ok with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Gedichtewicht - Thanks that would appear to be very workable and imo would be great.
One of the potential ways GW can make the core rulebook classes aka Core martial roles in PFO, really stand out is to really enhance the roles they describe such as: Music and books in the case of the bard and the wizard, the military in the case of the fighter presumably eg Soldier roles? And religion for the Clerics, just as druids appear to have interesting nature options (wildshape change to the avatar) and monks have unique "way of the open-hand" combat abilities. These really accentuate the experience of the roles. Hopefully the fun will be coded in by the devs in the combat system itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would something need to be recorded in audio as soundtrack to play along with instumentation? It would be nice to fill taverns with such perhaps for Bards to "perform" some of their Sir Robin songs along with instruments actually played. Of course you'd need writers and half-good singers, too.
Can there be an option to terminate with extreme prejudice any bard bringing out his lute and strumming the first few bars of 'Stairway to Heaven'? Maybe a 'Heinious' flag...?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can there be an option to terminate with extreme prejudice any bard bringing out his lute and strumming the first few bars of 'Stairway to Heaven'? Maybe a 'Heinious' flag...?Would something need to be recorded in audio as soundtrack to play along with instumentation? It would be nice to fill taverns with such perhaps for Bards to "perform" some of their Sir Robin songs along with instruments actually played. Of course you'd need writers and half-good singers, too.
I think the rules should be clear: We'd only want actual ballads of the River Kingdoms culture IC songs intended for the instruments and musical culture of this part of Golarion and beyond. I personally enjoy other muscial genres as well, but am not expecting to start up a nine-piece salsa band in the River Kingdoms!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the rules should be clear: We'd only want actual ballads of the River Kingdoms culture IC songs intended for the instruments and musical culture of this part of Golarion and beyond. I personally enjoy other muscial genres as well, but am not expecting to start up a nine-piece salsa band in the River Kingdoms!Can there be an option to terminate with extreme prejudice any bard bringing out his lute and strumming the first few bars of 'Stairway to Heaven'? Maybe a 'Heinious' flag...?Would something need to be recorded in audio as soundtrack to play along with instumentation? It would be nice to fill taverns with such perhaps for Bards to "perform" some of their Sir Robin songs along with instruments actually played. Of course you'd need writers and half-good singers, too.
Have you checked out LOTRO's music system? It is quite amazing and all the instruments available are IP appropriate. No actual singing is possible, but most bands chat the lyrics as the songs are played. The only downside is you tend to get a lot of modern songs translated into the system and not much original material.
One of the servers holds a Weatherstock event every spring were tons of bands play up on Weathertop in the Lonelands. Its an amazing event and really highlights how great the music system is. Were I making an MMO and wanted to add player music, I'd talk to Turbine about licensing their system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the rules should be clear: We'd only want actual ballads of the River Kingdoms culture IC songs intended for the instruments and musical culture of this part of Golarion and beyond. I personally enjoy other muscial genres as well, but am not expecting to start up a nine-piece salsa band in the River Kingdoms!
Which is why i wouldn´t allow players to directly put songs into the game.
I know a lot of people love the Lotr system, but i don´t think there should be modern day music in the riverkindoms......;) although riverdance/Lord of the dance might we something, if we get the comunity to crowdfordge the animations someday :D
Hmmm, dance formations...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've got to hope that clerics at least come with Negative energy spells immediately or very early on. Not only are they technically very easy, straight damage, but I hate any class being forced into the healer role. Also I generally think that combat healers shouldn't be a thing in any game.
then obviously you've never actually played pathfinder. Clerics are front line combat healers, and always have been. that's the REASON they can use medium and heavier armor without penalty to their spells. as for negative energy spells...Inflict Wounds has also always been a staple of the cleric class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've got to hope that clerics at least come with Negative energy spells immediately or very early on. Not only are they technically very easy, straight damage, but I hate any class being forced into the healer role. Also I generally think that combat healers shouldn't be a thing in any game.then obviously you've never actually played pathfinder. Clerics are front line combat healers, and always have been. that's the REASON they can use medium and heavier armor without penalty to their spells. as for negative energy spells...Inflict Wounds has also always been a staple of the cleric class.
Maybe he just uses the phrase "combat healer" to mean something different than what most people are thinking. No need for an accusation like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some friendly constructive criticism for the Video Blogs:
Lee - Keep your hands away from your face.
Steven - Speak up and enunciate.
I think using two camera angles is awkward. You might try keeping both cameras together and use one for wide-angle and the second for close-ups as each speaker talks. Steven and Lee would be able to look directly at the cameras which I believe would be more engaging for the viewer.
Both of you, smile, loosen up and have fun with it! We are very interested in your subject material! Try to match our enthusiasm with your own love of your craft. We want to see how much you enjoy building this game!
Just my two coins worth!
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I'm going to wire that room with a boom mic, that will clean up the audio. I need to use two cameras to hide the edits, but I'm still fiddling on where to put them. They are not the same camera so I worried that if the angle is too similar the edits will be jarring. Absolutely a work in progress, advice most appreciated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Clerics are a lot more than medics.
I suppose the prayer/bless/doom/curse is considered a buff in addition to Bull Strength, etc.
Would Enthrall and hold person type spells be implemented
channel positive (or negative for evils) -- Does PvE involve undead or just Player created undead?
silence and sound burst, shape stone, useful utilities.
weapon bonuses (how would that work if it is key words and not pluses or virtual weapons actin at distance
OK, summon spells won't work until there are pets (also needed for Druid and ranger and wizard familiar).
will the domain granted powers be implemented (e.g. Desna: travel provides for higher base movement & 3+W agile feet times a day ) Probably not at EE, but by OE?
Targets Non-good is GE less than 0 (or includes neutrals less than +2500), but evils are GE less than -2500?
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Goblin Squad Member
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<There is a deep, low rumble as the room darkens. There is a >crack!< and a zigzagged fissure opens in the now-black floor spilling forth radiant light brighter than flame, approaching sunlight!>
Who set the damn alarm? Wait. What?Just look at this mess... aww, maa-a-n, she's going to really be mad about this rug...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Darn, my desire to play a Halfling Monk is going to have to wait until pretty late in the development cycle it seems.
On a side note. ANY discussion at all on the music of the game would be greatly appreciated. So far a quick crtl+f on the kickstarter page and blog reveals one thing, that certain pledge levels will include the soundtrack. We've heard only 2 or 3 tracks so far, if I recall correctly. Are there plans to have many more distinct tracks to play? IE, tracks for certain areas, settlements being able to choose their own music or having it based on their alignment, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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ANY discussion at all on the music of the game would be greatly appreciated. So far a quick crtl+f on the kickstarter page and blog reveals one thing, that certain pledge levels will include the soundtrack. We've heard only 2 or 3 tracks so far, if I recall correctly. Are there plans to have many more distinct tracks to play? IE, tracks for certain areas, settlements being able to choose their own music or having it based on their alignment, etc.
Great question.
To increase it´s change of getting an answer i will quote it in the Blogs-and-QA-Videos-Submit-questions-here thread|
Goblin Squad Member
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Characters pursue martial abilities to be better at killing, and divine spell casting to be better at healing. Mix to taste.
I hope I am not reading things that are not there but this does sound extremely promising.
Separating generic martial (and other generic) abilities from class specific abilities would seem like an excellent way to allow players to truly customize their characters while at the same time eliminating the need to fill every class' skill tree with basically the same damaging abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Characters pursue martial abilities to be better at killing, and divine spell casting to be better at healing. Mix to taste.I hope I am not reading things that are not there but this does sound extremely promising.
Separating generic martial (and other generic) abilities from class specific abilities would seem like an excellent way to allow players to truly customize their characters while at the same time eliminating the need to fill every class' skill tree with basically the same damaging abilities.
I do not think that you are. The general design is something like this...
Almost all abilities are trainable skills. Almost all abilities are inspired by Pathfinder Tabletop classes. There are no classes in Pathfinder Online. Everything is the mix of skills.
Because it is imagined that some hybrid mixes of skills would be optimal over trying to theme your character to the Pathfinder tabletop classes, the notion of having Role Dedication Bonuses (which may now be role specialization skills I think) came into being. This allows a player who wants to play a fighter-themed character to specialize along a fighter route and not be too inferior to all of the custom mixes out there.
You are always free to mix to taste. Many of your medium BAB classes will have Pathfinder roles that allow dipping into martial training without sacrificing your role dedication. Though your low BAB classes may be less forgiving of doing so.
Always keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with going completely off the wall and mixing your own custom style. The system is meant to promote experimentation without punishing specialization. Keep in mind though that if you try to spread your abilities too thin you may be mediocre at several things but not really great at anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Characters pursue martial abilities to be better at killing, and divine spell casting to be better at healing. Mix to taste.
This is during EE right? I mean I imagine you'll eventually open up domains such as fire that use divine magic to kill things.