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Do spell-like abilities that duplicate arcane spells count as arcane spellcasting for any and all feat prerequisites such as item creation feats, feats such as Dimensional Agility, Arcane Strike, Arcane Blast, and Arcane Shield? Thanks in advance for your help! :)
Yes, IIRC.
You can find it in the FAQ, there is at least one or two questions on this.
How is caster level calculated for the use of these feats? Arcane strike mentions that you gain 1 damage +1 for every five caster levels you possess. Do spell like abilities provide you with actual caster levels or do they count as caster levels just for the use of the ability?
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A caster level is a caster level regardless of where it is coming from.
A caster level is a caster level regardless of where it is coming from.
So a Barbarian that has never casted a spell during his life has the same caster level as a wizard, just because his race can use a spell-LIKE ability? Something is wrong here IMO.
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Interesting question:
If an SLA has a metamagic effect applied to it, what spell level does it count as for for prerequisite.
For example, Teifling with the prolong magic trait.
Teifling has darkness as a SLA. = can cast level 2 spells.
Prolong magic, teifling's spell like ability acts as it affected by "extend" metamagic feat.
Extend spell says the spell uses a spell slot one level higher.
Does that mean the teifling counts as being able to cast level 3 spells?
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Despite acting as spells for the purposes of meeting requirements, you cannot apply metamagic feats to spell-like abilities. There are a few monster feats that act as metamagic for SLAs, but Extend isn't one of them (although Frog God Games has it as a 3rd-party option).
Interesting question:
If an SLA has a metamagic effect applied to it, what spell level does it count as for for prerequisite.
For example, Teifling with the prolong magic trait.
Teifling has darkness as a SLA. = can cast level 2 spells.
Prolong magic, teifling's spell like ability acts as it affected by "extend" metamagic feat.Extend spell says the spell uses a spell slot one level higher.
Does that mean the teifling counts as being able to cast level 3 spells?
I'd say no, for the same reason that an oracle with Clouded Vision doesn't have darkvision. "As if" would be the key phrase.
Yeah, especially when a real metamagick'd spell doesn't count as a higher level spell,
you can slap Extend MM on a 2nd level spell, and it still counts as a 2nd level spell for things like Globe of Invulnerability, Saves, etc,
it just takes up a 3rd level slot.
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my argument is that the prerequisite is "being able to cast a 3rd level spell." To cast an extended 2nd level spell, you would need to be able to cast a 3rd level spell. After you cast it, it becomes a 2nd level spell, but until you cast it, it takes a 3rd level spell slot.
I'm not saying this is a good or convincing argument, but I think it should be considered.
Xaratherus:
Prolong Magic
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I'd say no, for the same reason that an oracle with Clouded Vision doesn't have darkvision. "As if" would be the key phrase.
So if a feat had a prereq "darkvision" would you say the oracle could not take that feat? Do you have a ruling for that? Ususally when they say
"as if" it means that this thing acts in all ways as if you had the other thing.
Fun fact. Aasimars can make Eldritch Knights from level 2. Just take a level of Fighter for the proficiencies and you are ready.
Yeah, but even if you stop to take that one level of Wizard/Sorcerer, you still start at level 3, while most of them start at level 7-8.
Want to stretch the rules a bit? Consider that before you became an Eldritch Knight you were a Sorcerer/Wizard (because these were the classes you took Daylight from in the first place) and start progressing one of the two. It doesn't make any sense, I know, but neither does the fact that you can gain full caster level from a spell-like ability.
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Want to stretch the rules a bit? Consider that before you became an Eldritch Knight you were a Sorcerer/Wizard (because these were the classes you took Daylight from in the first place) and start progressing one of the two. It doesn't make any sense, I know, but neither does the fact that you can gain full caster level from a spell-like ability.
I personally don't care. For strange builds instead of saying "the rules are grey and strange so no" I compare it to what the player could be doing with straight RAW instead: If it's not definitely more powerful than those options, but is just different or unique, then why should I stop their fun?
With that in mind I don't consider any early access to prestige classes or feats "too good" so I see no problem. That includes the level 3 Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge at level 4.
Colfenor: I... Dont see the issue. The only really strong option with this is mystic theurge, and even so thats probably on par with wizards and druids.
The thing that bothers me is not whether these builds are powerful. Actually I believe that true power resides in psionics exclusively. What bothers me is that it doesn't make any sense for a barbarian to suddenly use arcane powers without any training in the use of magic just because he can Light a torch once per day. From a lore perspective always.
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The thing that bothers me is not whether these builds are powerful. Actually I believe that true power resides in psionics exclusively. What bothers me is that it doesn't make any sense for a barbarian to suddenly use arcane powers without any training in the use of magic just because he can Light a torch once per day. From a lore perspective always.
Uh...he can do that by simply taking a level of Sorcerer or Wizard. This option is no different thematically, just better mechanically.
The thing that bothers me is not whether these builds are powerful. Actually I believe that true power resides in psionics exclusively. What bothers me is that it doesn't make any sense for a barbarian to suddenly use arcane powers without any training in the use of magic just because he can Light a torch once per day. From a lore perspective always.Uh...he can do that by simply taking a level of Sorcerer or Wizard. This option is no different thematically, just better mechanically.
You cannot gain caster level 20 for arcane strike just from a level of Sorcerer/Wizard. However, if you have a spell-like ability that scales with your character level, you can.
Still, you need a specific race to do so. Got no problem with it.
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I fail to see what's wrong with channeling one's innate magical ability into their weapon.
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Fun fact. Aasimars can make Eldritch Knights from level 2. Just take a level of Fighter for the proficiencies and you are ready.
So far, the really scary one is Bloat mage:
(And a lot of the scaryness is a result of the wonkyness of PFS, admittedly. And at the high end of the power curve at that.)In PFS, you aren't likely to play much past level 11. And since you can't craft scrolls, you get spell focus instead of scribe scroll as your bonus wizard feat at 1st level. So:
Aasimar
First level
Wizard
Spell Focus (bonus)
Bloatmage initiate
Enter at level 2.
At level 11, you get:
+10 blood pool each day (class)
+2 (Fortifying leaches, per day)
+3d12, bloat (roll each twice, fort leaches again.)
for an average of 34 extra spell levels worth of spells.
Take Conjuration school, Summoner of Good, and you can as a standard action + swift action cast Summon Monster VI + Haste 7 times a day.
(Plus, once per day, you can summon a celestial outsider using a low level spell, drain it's blood, and gain the sorcerer celestial blood line powers, up to level 11, for an hour. )
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Fun fact. Aasimars can make Eldritch Knights from level 2. Just take a level of Fighter for the proficiencies and you are ready.So far, the really scary one is Bloat mage:
(And a lot of the scaryness is a result of the wonkyness of PFS, admittedly. And at the high end of the power curve at that.)
And obviously the reason I am asking about Darkness + Extend = able to cast level 3 spells, is that all of this gets that much nastier if it is a teifling, with +2 INT, +2 DEX than if it is an Aasimar with +2 WIS, +2 CHR.
I'd say no, for the same reason that an oracle with Clouded Vision doesn't have darkvision. "As if" would be the key phrase.So if a feat had a prereq "darkvision" would you say the oracle could not take that feat? Do you have a ruling for that? Ususally when they say
"as if" it means that this thing acts in all ways as if you had the other thing.
Read this thread
It doesn't say it grants or gains darkvision, it says you see as if you had darkvision.|
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I'd say no, for the same reason that an oracle with Clouded Vision doesn't have darkvision. "As if" would be the key phrase.So if a feat had a prereq "darkvision" would you say the oracle could not take that feat? Do you have a ruling for that? Ususally when they say
"as if" it means that this thing acts in all ways as if you had the other thing.Read this thread
It doesn't say it grants or gains darkvision, it says you see as if you had darkvision.
Based on that conversation, the big problem is that:
A. Oracle says you can't do anything to offset the curse without help of a deity.
B. Even if it did give you dark vision 120 feet, the clouded sight would not let you see any of it beyond 30' so it would be a wasted feet.
Note that said thread was long before the SLA ruling that allows SLAs to meet prerequisites for feats and PrCs.
It's not a direct precedent, but there are official examples (like the SLAs, or how classes that channel "like" a Cleric can take channel feats, despite the prerequisite being "Channel Energy class feature and those alternate classes not actually having that feature) where "as if" is sufficient to meet prerequisites.
Note I'm not saying that it would apply in the specific case of an Oracle with clouded vision and a feat requiring Darkvision - just that it can't be dismissed out-of-hand given other precedents.
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You cannot gain caster level 20 for arcane strike just from a level of Sorcerer/Wizard. However, if you have a spell-like ability that scales with your character level, you can.The thing that bothers me is not whether these builds are powerful. Actually I believe that true power resides in psionics exclusively. What bothers me is that it doesn't make any sense for a barbarian to suddenly use arcane powers without any training in the use of magic just because he can Light a torch once per day. From a lore perspective always.Uh...he can do that by simply taking a level of Sorcerer or Wizard. This option is no different thematically, just better mechanically.
Well...no. But Arcane Strike is +5 damage and maybe your weapon glowing a bit. Thematically, it's about as significant as getting Shield and maybe less than Prestidigitation and Light given their more obvious nature. It's more useful/powerful...but not more flashy or magical. Which is what matters thematically.
Flite: Look at how Clouded Vision curse is worded.
Clouded Vision: Your eyes are obscured, making it difficult for you to see. You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision. At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet. At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet. At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.
Note:
but you can see 'as if' you had darkvision
Whereas later in the power:
you gain blindsense
you gain blindsight
That's pretty clear that you do not 'gain darkvision', but see 'as if' you had darkvision.
Therefore, you would not qualify for Deepsight.
Even if your race had 60' darkvision to begin with, you would never see past that 60' limitation without deity intervention. Heck, you wouldn't see past 30' until lvl 5.
Well...no. But Arcane Strike is +5 damage and maybe your weapon glowing a bit. Thematically, it's about as significant as getting Shield and maybe less than Prestidigitation and Light given their more obvious nature. It's more useful/powerful...but not more flashy or magical. Which is what matters thematically.You cannot gain caster level 20 for arcane strike just from a level of Sorcerer/Wizard. However, if you have a spell-like ability that scales with your character level, you can.The thing that bothers me is not whether these builds are powerful. Actually I believe that true power resides in psionics exclusively. What bothers me is that it doesn't make any sense for a barbarian to suddenly use arcane powers without any training in the use of magic just because he can Light a torch once per day. From a lore perspective always.Uh...he can do that by simply taking a level of Sorcerer or Wizard. This option is no different thematically, just better mechanically.
Let me get this straight. A Wizard that has spent years over years developing his spellcasting ability can imbue his weapon with the same magical energy as a Fighter that happens to have an innate spell-like ability.
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Let me get this straight. A Wizard that has spent years over years developing his spellcasting ability can imbue his weapon with the same magical energy as a Fighter that happens to have an innate spell-like ability.
Sure. The Wizard can use his power for infinitely more things, but the Fighter has just as powerful, say, a Daylight ability as the Wizard. Why couldn't he infuse the raw power into the weapon as well? It's a matter of the raw power inherent in that one spell not skill or versatility, or even number of spells. A Bard does as well as a Wizard...why wouldn't a Fighter who had spell access?
Sure. The Wizard can use his power for infinitely more things, but the Fighter has just as powerful, say, a Daylight ability as the Wizard. Why couldn't he infuse the raw power into the weapon as well? It's a matter of the raw power inherent in that one spell not skill or versatility, or even number of spells. A Bard does as well as a Wizard...why wouldn't a Fighter who had spell access?
Because a Fighter doesn't access spells. The big mistake they made in Pathfinder was to say that spell-LIKE abilities are the same as having the spell. If that is the case, then why have spell-like abilities in the first place? Just make the creatures have 1 or 2 spells available to them due to their magical nature. Technically this would blend much better with the Sorcerer theme. Now they say "we have spells and we have spell-like abilities that aren't theoretically spells but technically they are considered spells when talking about prerequisites, etc.
Right now the only difference between the 2 is the way of execution.
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Let me get this straight. A Wizard that has spent years over years developing his spellcasting ability can imbue his weapon with the same magical energy as a Fighter that happens to have an innate spell-like ability.Well...no. But Arcane Strike is +5 damage and maybe your weapon glowing a bit. Thematically, it's about as significant as getting Shield and maybe less than Prestidigitation and Light given their more obvious nature. It's more useful/powerful...but not more flashy or magical. Which is what matters thematically.You cannot gain caster level 20 for arcane strike just from a level of Sorcerer/Wizard. However, if you have a spell-like ability that scales with your character level, you can.The thing that bothers me is not whether these builds are powerful. Actually I believe that true power resides in psionics exclusively. What bothers me is that it doesn't make any sense for a barbarian to suddenly use arcane powers without any training in the use of magic just because he can Light a torch once per day. From a lore perspective always.Uh...he can do that by simply taking a level of Sorcerer or Wizard. This option is no different thematically, just better mechanically.
why should some dude with a book be better at infusing their blade with power than the angel-born warrior?
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Let me get this straight. A Wizard that has spent years over years developing his spellcasting ability can imbue his weapon with the same magical energy as a Fighter that happens to have an innate spell-like ability.
Uhh... he has innate magical ability. So... yeah.
Would it bother you if a Dragon took this feat imbued a weapon with his innate magical ability?
Is it that an innate magical ability can be harnessed in this way, or rather something else that bothers you about it?
Let me get this straight. A Wizard that has spent years over years developing his spellcasting ability can imbue his weapon with the same magical energy as a Fighter that happens to have an innate spell-like ability.Uhh... he has innate magical ability. So... yeah.
Would it bother you if a Dragon took this feat imbued a weapon with his innate magical ability?
Is it that an innate magical ability can be harnessed in this way, or rather something else that bothers you about it?
First of all, a Dragon is a Sorcerer as he casts spells as a Sorcerer. What bothers me is why do they separate spell-like abilities from spells, if they want both to work the same way?
In case of Arcane Strike let me explain. A Fighter can take Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization to gain +6 damage in a SPECIFIC weapon. A Fighter with a spell-like ability can also take Arcane Strike which gives him 5 damage with ALL weapons for free, since 99% of the time he won't be using swift actions. Certainly nothing broken, but it is a bit of unfair advantage against other races, especially since their Fighters won't be able to use their swift actions for something.
^^^ This.
And by your definition Colfenor, why a sorcerer could use it too ?
It's not OP, it's reasonable, so why not ?
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First of all, a Dragon is a Sorcerer as he casts spells as a Sorcerer. What bothers me is why do they separate spell-like abilities from spells, if they want both to work the same way?
In case of Arcane Strike let me explain. A Fighter can take Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization to gain +6 damage in a SPECIFIC weapon. A Fighter with a spell-like ability can also take Arcane Strike which gives him 5 damage with ALL weapons for free, since 99% of the time he won't be using swift actions. Certainly nothing broken, but it is a bit of unfair advantage against other races, especially since their Fighters won't be able to use their swift actions for something.
Dragons get SLAs before they gain spells. But, anywho...
Your argument is from the balance perspective huh? Okay.
Every race has advantages and disadvantages. It is up to you as a player or GM to decide on what kinds of races you prefer.
Humans get a whole extra feat and can freely choose which stat they prefer, as well as extra skill points. Those are all advantages, but I wouldn't call them "unfair advantages".
Each race has their perks. That is what makes it all "fair". And also not boring.
Let me ask you this. The Sorcerer is considered to have innate magical power when compared to the Wizard who studies magic. Even though his magical power is innate (that means that he was born with these powers because they are part of his bloodline), he casts spells, not spell-like abilities. In addition, if he takes a level in a different class (even in an arcane spellcasting class!!!) his caster level won't increase at all.
However, if a character of a race like Aasimars takes a non-spellcasting class, his innate magical powers (which are part of his race, just like a Sorcerer's bloodline) will continue to increase no matter whether he bothers to practice them or not.
In the end, I want to ask both the community and the developers: What is the purpose of spell-like abilities if they work just like spells 95% of the time? They can be dispelled, Spell Resistance works on them and the only difference is that they cannot be countered and don't have any components associated with their execution. Why not give races spells instead?
Let me ask you this. The Sorcerer is considered to have innate magical power when compared to the Wizard who studies magic. Even though his magical power is innate (that means that he was born with these powers because they are part of his bloodline), he casts spells, not spell-like abilities. In addition, if he takes a level in a different class (even in an arcane spellcasting class!!!) his caster level won't increase at all.
However, if a character of a race like Aasimars takes a non-spellcasting class, his innate magical powers (which are part of his race, just like a Sorcerer's bloodline) will continue to increase no matter whether he bothers to practice them or not.
In the end, I want to ask both the community and the developers: What is the purpose of spell-like abilities if they work just like spells 95% of the time? They can be dispelled, Spell Resistance works on them and the only difference is that they cannot be countered and don't have any components associated with their execution. Why not give races spells instead?
I have always thought that the description (fluff) of the sorcerer class is better suited to having SLAs instead of spells. But... that is just personal preference. The game does well enough blurring the lines for sorcerers between spells and SLAs that it is 'close enough' most of the time to represent inborn ability.
Not all SLAs advance with HD. In fact, the most easily attained options don't. But some do increase with character level.
One of the reasons for that is to make the ability stay relevant for longer. SLAs from races tend to be the ones that are the most innate, and the ones which advance purely on HD. These stay powerful your entire career, because they are manifestations of your own inner power to its core.
For abilities that are developed from classes, the powers tend to track only class level in the class that grants those powers. This is because it is mastery of this class that enables your power to grow and advance.
As to why sorcerers don't advance in CL when they multiclass? They aren't dedicating their efforts to improve their magical gifts. While it is innate, it is also partially inert. They have great potential locked away, but it takes dedication training and a bit of experimentation to bring it out in full force. If they divert their energy into mastering some other talents, then these gifts suffer.
But to your ultimate question. SLA vs Spells and why they exist? Variety is a good thing. Having things in the game with different mechanics and a different feel to them is a good thing for the game.
As to why sorcerers don't advance in CL when they multiclass? They aren't dedicating their efforts to improve their magical gifts. While it is innate, it is also partially inert. They have great potential locked away, but it takes dedication training and a bit of experimentation to bring it out in full force. If they divert their energy into mastering some other talents, then these gifts suffer.
Shouldn't races with innate spell-like abilities suffer too if they pick a non-spellcasting class, since they don't practice their gifts? That's not the case however.
@ ShadowcatX: You cast the spell-like ability as a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Concerning the rules, if a feat requires to be able to cast Sorcerer/Wizard spells and you have a Sorcerer/Wizard spell-like ability, then you qualify for the feat. If a spell-like ability gives you caster level equal to your character level, then you have an effective Sorcerer/Wizard or Cleric (in case of divine SLAs) caster level of 20 at level 20. All in all you are treated as a spellcaster that can cast only a specific spell, which in my opinion is like a bug in the game code.
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Let me ask you this. The Sorcerer is considered to have innate magical power when compared to the Wizard who studies magic. Even though his magical power is innate (that means that he was born with these powers because they are part of his bloodline), he casts spells, not spell-like abilities. In addition, if he takes a level in a different class (even in an arcane spellcasting class!!!) his caster level won't increase at all.
However, if a character of a race like Aasimars takes a non-spellcasting class, his innate magical powers (which are part of his race, just like a Sorcerer's bloodline) will continue to increase no matter whether he bothers to practice them or not.
In the end, I want to ask both the community and the developers: What is the purpose of spell-like abilities if they work just like spells 95% of the time? They can be dispelled, Spell Resistance works on them and the only difference is that they cannot be countered and don't have any components associated with their execution. Why not give races spells instead?
Because of backwards compatibility with D&D 3.5. You can thank WotC for SLAs.
On a similar note, I would like to point out that Sorcerers and Wizards (and even Clerics, plus other classes) also have SLAs in addition to their Spells.
Giving them those SLAs are a way to give the classes a little extra something without messing up the Spell Progression of their class. They can also regulate it more than just saying, "Hey here's some more spell slots."
Case in point: An Evoker gets Force Missile (a SLA) 3+Int times per day. It works like Magic Missile, except it is only one missile at 1d4.
Also, the very points you made: Cannot be countered, and they don't have components.
So, your Fighter has the arcane SLA Enlarge Person. As it is, he doesn't need to wave his arms about and mutter something weird. He doesn't need any powdered iron. Oh, and he doesn't have to roll that 50% spell failure for his full plate and heavy shield.
If you instead said that the Fighter has a single 1st level arcane spell slot that he can use to either prepare or spontaneously cast Enlarge Person, is he going to bother?
SLAs and spells serve different functions in the game, even if their result often looks the same.
Just my 2 coppers' worth!