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I could see someone going Rogue for roleplaying reasons (because they don't want 'Ninja' on their character sheet, etc.), but it just seems to me like Ninja is a Rogue with Ki points, losing very little in the exchange.
Since character backstory and flavor is a personal thing, I'd only like to talk about mechanical differences between the classes. What does a Rogue do that the Ninja can't?
I could see someone going Rogue for roleplaying reasons (because they don't want 'Ninja' on their character sheet, etc.), but it just seems to me like Ninja is a Rogue with Ki points, losing very little in the exchange.
Since character backstory and flavor is a personal thing, I'd only like to talk about mechanical differences between the classes. What does a Rogue do that the Ninja can't?
Rogues get trapfinding and don't need charisma for ki.
That's pretty much it.
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Trapsense!
[/sarcasm]
Archetypes.
The admittedly better Knowledge (Dungeoneering).
Archetypes.
Could you give examples of what these archtypes do that Ninjas don't?
Scout gets sneak attack on a charge. That's the only one that comes to mind.
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Archetypes.Could you give examples of what these archtypes do that Ninjas don't?
Well, Knife Master makes your Sneak Attack dice d8s if you use a knife, kukri, or similar weapon. Few others have anything really good, except Scout, which Ninjas can get, too.
And Rogue gets Evasion at 2nd level, while Ninjas must wait for 10th at the earliest. And Trapfinding is probably better than Poison Use.
But basically, you're right. Ninjas are flat-out superior to Rogues. Especially at 10th level plus. This is relatively easy to fix as a GM, though.
For example, my Rogue House Rules in this area:
The Ki Pool Rogue Trick grants a full, Ninja-sized, Charisma-based, Ki Pool with all the appropriate uses. On the other hand, Ninjas may buy Evasion as a normal Ninja Trick, not an advanced one, and Rogue and Ninja tricks are more or less interchangeable (as are the advanced versions).
There. Fixed. This powers up both rogue and Ninja slightly (since they can both have Ki Pool and Evasion at 2nd Level). I don't consider this an actual problem.
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Rogue has a few more options for nasty status effects that don't rely on poison or give Fort saves...
You can stack up bleeding attack (though the Ninja also has this one), dispelling attack, crippling strike, befuddling strike, confounding blades, maybe go Thug and throw some sickened in there... I think that's a bit more status affecting than the Ninja can stack on without using poisons, which generally have pretty low DCs and often can't affect a given enemy.
So, there's maybe that.
Bandit, Burglar, Carnivalist, Chameleon, Thug.
And some Racial Archetypes like Deadly Courtesan (Vishkanya), Eldritch Raider (Gillmen), Skulking Slayer (Half-Orc), etc.
Scout actually seems to work with Ninja.
Archetypes.Could you give examples of what these archtypes do that Ninjas don't?
I know that tengus have a racial one that basically gives them a somewhat annoyingly restricted version of pounce at level 1. That is worth something at least (especially with either sword trained to get better weapons or three natural attacks). It also stacks with scout, which is also very useful since you are probably taking it for the charges anyway.
Ninjas can't use Rogue archetypes?
Ninjas can't use Rogue archetypes?
Maybe, maybe not. But even if you just view ninjas as a rather extensive archetype, they still trade away enough that you will have trouble finding something to trade with the left overs (scout is one of them though)
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Ninjas can't use Rogue archetypes?
They can't use ones that give up abilities that they don't have but Rogue does.
I often get a lot of mileage out of Evasion, but that's pretty much it.
Archetypes.Could you give examples of what these archtypes do that Ninjas don't?
I think Quandry's point is that ninja doesn't have any archetypes available (not yet anyway), and rogue has many archetypes. Since all other classes get archetypes, you'd expect ninja to have some too. So archetypes are something the rogue has that ninja does not - a difference, as you're looking for in your OP.
I've heard the argument that ninja is an alternate build of the rogue, so as an alternate wouldn't have archetypes available. But you could make the same argument of samurai as an alternate build of cavalier - and samurai does have an archetype with the 'sword saint', so there's no justifiable reason why there are no ninja archetypes. There should be.
From 3PP, since Rite Publishing has created 5 archetypes for samurai, you can be sure that after they release the GM's and Players guides to the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) which is what is taking all the current oriental development time there, they (we) will be creating several archetypes for ninja, and include stealthy versions of several other classes - more than likely in a product named Way of the Shinobi.
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There are several Rogue archetypes that the Ninja can take, but they can't take any that trade out trapfinding (and that's actually quite a few of them), or any that trade out trap sense. So Chameleon, Charlatan, and Knife Master are all out, along with Survivalist, Pirate, Roof Runner, Acrobat, Cutpurse, Investigator, Poisoner (not that the Ninja cares about that one), Sniper, Spy, Swashbuckler, and Thug.
There are several Rogue archetypes that the Ninja can take, but they can't take any that trade out trapfinding (and that's actually quite a few of them), or any that trade out trap sense. So Chameleon, Charlatan, and Knife Master are all out, along with Survivalist, Pirate, Roof Runner, Acrobat, Cutpurse, Investigator, Poisoner (not that the Ninja cares about that one), Sniper, Spy, Swashbuckler, and Thug.
I don't know, real ninja did use poison in their craft - there is plenty of evidence of that case being true.
When I eventually help with the creation of some ninja archetypes with Rite Publishing, these will be ninja archetypes and not something rogues could ever take.
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There are several Rogue archetypes that the Ninja can take, but they can't take any that trade out trapfinding (and that's actually quite a few of them), or any that trade out trap sense. So Chameleon, Charlatan, and Knife Master are all out, along with Survivalist, Pirate, Roof Runner, Acrobat, Cutpurse, Investigator, Poisoner (not that the Ninja cares about that one), Sniper, Spy, Swashbuckler, and Thug.I don't know, real ninja did use poison in their craft - there is plenty of evidence of that case being true.
When I eventually help with the creation of some ninja archetypes with Rite Publishing, these will be ninja archetypes and not something rogues could ever take.
What I meant was that Ninjas already get Poison Use so they don't care that they can't take the Poisoner archetype.
Ah, my bad...
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Ah, my bad...
No worries! I agree that I wish there more Ninja archetypes, I've actually been working on one for the Magic of Incarna book I'm writing for Dreamscarred.
That being said, I don't necessarily think that Ninjas need more archetypes to shore up their capabilities or help them specialize more (they're pretty competent and nasty as is), but more just because I think it'd be cool :)
Ninjas can't use Rogue archetypes?Maybe, maybe not. But even if you just view ninjas as a rather extensive archetype, they still trade away enough that you will have trouble finding something to trade with the left overs (scout is one of them though)
Ninja's are a rogue archetype. But yes, a PC can have two archetypes if both give up different things (you can't give up the same thing twice). So, it looks like the scout might work. Sslarn gives a good list of archetypes that won't work.
For combat heavy games, Scout is a really solid archetype. Combine with half-orc, a falchion, some str...
Ninja's are a rogue archetype.
Actually a ninja is NOT an archetype, rather its an alternate class.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
Rogues get to combine archetypes better than the ninja does. A rogue can take both thug and scout and basically make enemies run in fear every time he hits them.
The ninja can of course take scout, but that doesn't allow you to pull the intimidate shennanigans (though of course you get to turn invisible, so a bit of a wash?)
prototype00
Ninja's are a rogue archetype.Actually a ninja is NOT an archetype, rather its an alternate class.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
Per James Jacobs: "Ninja is an alternate rogue. Technically, it's an archetype but one that does a lot more than, say, the pirate or scout does."
[Ninjas] can't take any [Rogue Archetypes that] trade out trapfinding (and that's actually quite a few of them), or any that trade out trap sense.
Ninjas also cannot take Rogue Archetypes that replace or modify Class Skills, Weapon Proficiencies, Evasion/Imp Evasion, Rogue Talents, or Master Strike, as all of those are replaced or modified by Ninja itself.
That's of course assuming that you can take any of them to begin with.
I've tried requesting a FAQ on that subject as well as the Favored Class issue, but to no avail so far as I know.
When I eventually help with the creation of some ninja archetypes with Rite Publishing, these will be ninja archetypes and not something rogues could ever take.
I would think most archetypes should also work with a Rogue... A Rogue is largely just a Ninja minus the Wu Xia, so for a different tone of game a Rogue may be a preferable class to portray Ninja. Never mind that Ninja already can take a good number of Rogue archetypes, and Rogues are generally felt to be weaker anyways, so I don't see the reason why Ninja need much more exclusive benefits. Not that there couldn't be a few Ninja specific archtypes... removing the Ki Pool would be an obvious one.
Rogues get to combine archetypes better than the ninja does. A rogue can take both thug and scout and basically make enemies run in fear every time he hits them.
The ninja can of course take scout, but that doesn't allow you to pull the intimidate shennanigans (though of course you get to turn invisible, so a bit of a wash?)
prototype00
How does a rogue take both scout and thug? I ask because I took poisoner, and would like to take another one....
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How does a rogue take both scout and thug? I ask because I took poisoner, and would like to take another one....Rogues get to combine archetypes better than the ninja does. A rogue can take both thug and scout and basically make enemies run in fear every time he hits them.
The ninja can of course take scout, but that doesn't allow you to pull the intimidate shennanigans (though of course you get to turn invisible, so a bit of a wash?)
prototype00
You can take as many archetypes as you want provided they replace different things. For home games it's certainly reasonable to let ninjas take rogue archetypes, but by raw they cannot.
As far as the op question, evasion is pretty much the only good thing. As an aside, rogues can get Ki points and ninja powers As rogue talents.
