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Questions:
*With Ride-By Attack, given a simple setup (two combattants on a featureless plain), can you charge in such a way that you can simply continue moving in a straight line after attacking?
*Given that the mount can't attack during a Ride-By-Attack, do you interpret "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent" from he perspective of the mount or the rider?
Problem: When you draw a straight line from your space to "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent", the continuation of that line - the movement you would make as part of a Ride-By-Attack - will often pass through the enemy's space, making it impossible to do so without employing very obscure tactics.
Basically, if you and your target are aligned on the same row of squares, you can't do a ride-by attack by the rules as written. If he's offset by one row, you can. This is obviously unsatisfactory.
Given that any reasonable reading of the rules must take into consideration the Principle of Implied Exception (for an example, see Ferocious Summons), I think it's most reasonable to assume that Ride-By Attack allows you to charge to a space that would allow you to actually ride by.
Given that any reasonable reading of the rules must take into consideration the Principle of Implied Exception (for an example, see Ferocious Summons), I think it's most reasonable to assume that Ride-By Attack allows you to charge to a space that would allow you to actually ride by.
I did some digging, and that's exactly the solution that's used for the (exact) same problem in 3.5: You can charge to any space that will let you continue your movement.
I always saw it that way...however I could see the need of some clarification
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This isn't the first time this has come up. I'm glad there is someone else trying to get an answer on how this feat works.
My problem with the feat is that it states "you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again", but nobody can agree on how a standard charge works!
As a result, figuring out what Ride-By-Attack does is impossible.
FAQ'd.
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*Given that the mount can't attack during a Ride-By-Attack, do you interpret "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent" from he perspective of the mount or the rider?
Not sure that this a given. A mount is definitely able to attack during a 'standard charge'
PRD wrote:
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."
PRD wrote:
"Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack."
this is one of those common sense calls, and not letter of the rules, its almost spelled out in the name..ride by..you ride by a target and strike it when in range..and continue moving.
And as to the charge nitpicking..yes the mount is charging but the rider is directing it...sometimes just go with a common sense approach, with rule problems, it hurts less.
There was a post by Sean Reynolds that explained how RBA works. Essentially you can make a sideways charge at the target
As a matter of fact I believe it is possible to use ride by attack when facing in a straight line. But you need a succesfull overrun when you reach each other!!!!! Off course overrun (unless improved) causes an AoO against you even though it might be difficult to execute the AoO, because most Mounted cambatants will be using a lance (ranged weapon). But apart from that I see no problem completing a ride-by-attack as long as you make your overrun roll, when facing each other directly.
As a matter of fact I believe it is possible to use ride by attack when facing in a straight line. But you need a succesfull overrun when you reach each other!!!!! Off course overrun (unless improved) causes an AoO against you even though it might be difficult to execute the AoO, because most Mounted cambatants will be using a lance (ranged weapon). But apart from that I see no problem completing a ride-by-attack as long as you make your overrun roll, when facing each other directly.Doesn't work sadly :
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
Yes and the charge works untill you reached the closest adjacent square of the target of the charge. Ride by attack give you the option to continue movement in a straight line after the charge is disolved, so what's the problem because I still do not see one?
And it's possible to either shield bash or overrun as part of the charge instead of making the normal attack.When this fails the movement stops in the square before the attempt to overrun or shield bash. Normal AoO apply off course.
But as an example if you execute a mounted charge, in the same row as the target, while having the feat ride by attack. You can opt to overun the target at the end of the charge and if you succeed in doing so and both mount and rider are still alive, you may now continue your straight line and finish movement considering the normal movement limitations. Your opponent (if still alive) is now prone in the square he/she occupies. As always opponents may opt to move aside an overrun attempt (provided their is sufficient space). Ride-by-attack gives options after charge is completed, but if the overrun fails and the opponent does not move aside movement ends in the square where the charge was aimed at and halts there. Considering that horses are large and gain a +2 from charge to aid the overun, this will most likely succeed against medium creatures (and also trigger some AoO). I would advice not to charge Dwarves and Monks though and especially not Dwarven Monks.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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charge in such a way that you can simply continue moving in a straight line after attacking?
You can. I had been playing this wrong for years, and finally found a thread with a post by SKR with example charge lanes.
You can charge to any square that the path isn't blocked by other creatures, walls, tables, difficult terrain, etc (the outside edges) and the first square you can make an attack you must stop and make the attack.
This is valid:
X = target O = PC
.<---------..........
X.............------O
charge in such a way that you can simply continue moving in a straight line after attacking?You can. I had been playing this wrong for years, and finally found a thread with a post by SKR with example charge lanes.
You can charge to any square that the path isn't blocked by other creatures, walls, tables, difficult terrain, etc (the outside edges) and the first square you can make an attack you must stop and make the attack.
This is valid:
X = target O = PC
.<---------..........
X.............------O
I disagree, charge states:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.It clearly states CLOSEST SPACE from which YOU can attack. So only one space is closest. Other spaces that would allow you to attack your charge victim are not allowed! ANY OBSTACLES in the target square or path and you cannot charge. Only helpless creatures do not stop a charge.
So charging and then ride-by-attack is only possible in the same row, if you have no obstacles of any kind and in you succesfully overrun the target after the charge (and that's a viable option instead off attacking while completing a charge).
Ride-by-attack states you will be continuing the straight line of the charge, so no lane changing.
charging and then ride-by-attack is only possible in the same row, if you have no obstacles of any kind and in you succesfully overrun the target after the charge (and that's a viable option instead off attacking while completing a charge).
That's not much of a ride-by attack.
charging and then ride-by-attack is only possible in the same row, if you have no obstacles of any kind and in you succesfully overrun the target after the charge (and that's a viable option instead off attacking while completing a charge).That's not much of a ride-by attack.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough I now realise.
The rider may simply attack during or at the end of the charge and the Mount may attempt to overrun at the end of the charge so you can continue your straigth line of movement after the charge in a single row (if overrun is succesfull off course).If you were in two adjacent rows you may simply pass one another without the need of an overrun. And off course attack at the end of the charge, as well as the riders who may attack.
Because the charge rules don't say, follow these rules until you reach the closest adjacent square, they say, follow these rules till the ending space.Yes and the charge works untill you reached the closest adjacent square of the target of the charge. Ride by attack give you the option to continue movement in a straight line after the charge is disolved, so what's the problem because I still do not see one?As a matter of fact I believe it is possible to use ride by attack when facing in a straight line. But you need a succesfull overrun when you reach each other!!!!! Off course overrun (unless improved) causes an AoO against you even though it might be difficult to execute the AoO, because most Mounted cambatants will be using a lance (ranged weapon). But apart from that I see no problem completing a ride-by-attack as long as you make your overrun roll, when facing each other directly.Doesn't work sadly :
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
I still do not see the problem. Ride-by-attack works after the charge is ended and allows you to use remaining movement (if any) after the charge.
So when the charge is completed, you are in the ending space. And that is either in front of target (failed overun) or at the end of your movement (succesfull overrun) and overun allows you to go through your opponents square as part of a charge and the target will end up prone. And ride by attack allows the mounted combatants to attack during the charge, without provoking an attack of opportunity from your target from movement.|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It clearly states CLOSEST SPACE from which YOU can attack.
I held that view (your view) for years.
We were wrong.
You can charge to any square that doesn't violate other charge rules and it doesn't need to be the closest in a direct line. Just the closest you can make an attack. This gets more pronounced with a reach weapon or whip etc.
Yes, I agree with James Risner, along the same lines, a dragon using it's 10ft reach bite on a medium opponent and fly-by-attack made the players sad, as they readied actions to strike the dragon as it came by, but it had a reach of 10ft, they only had 5ft. It gets more pronounced with Reach Weapons!
charge in such a way that you can simply continue moving in a straight line after attacking?You can. I had been playing this wrong for years, and finally found a thread with a post by SKR with example charge lanes.
You can charge to any square that the path isn't blocked by other creatures, walls, tables, difficult terrain, etc (the outside edges) and the first square you can make an attack you must stop and make the attack.
This is valid:
X = target O = PC
.<---------..........
X.............------OI disagree, charge states:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.It clearly states CLOSEST SPACE from which YOU can attack. So only one space is closest. Other spaces that would allow you to attack your charge victim are not allowed! ANY OBSTACLES in the target square or path and you cannot charge. Only helpless creatures do not stop a charge.
So charging and then ride-by-attack is only possible in the same row, if you have no obstacles of any kind and in you succesfully overrun the target after the charge (and that's a viable option instead off attacking while completing a charge).
Ride-by-attack states you will be continuing the straight line of the charge, so no lane changing.
There are often multiple spaces that are closest.
Y= YouE= Enemy
Y
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abc
E
a,b, and c are all equidistant closest spaces and thus viable spaces to charge to.
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While this probably needs an official FAQ at some point, this has come up multiple times on the forums.
SKR post on the matter: *note he posts multiple times in the thread so reading the whole thing might be worthwhile.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l5b9?Mounts-with-attacks-and-the-RideByAttack- Feat#13
Here are some pictures he made on the subject:
http://s248.photobucket.com/user/seankreynolds/media/angled-charges.jpg.htm l
Sadly, SKR's interpretation of the rules have flaws that were discussed in the thread. He wrote that he would be lobbying for change after his errors were pointed out but no changes have occurred, and it has been several years since this thread.
The whole mounted combat system needs a rewrite so that it is clear and easy to understand.
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SKR's interpretation of the rules have flaws that were discussed in the thread.Not everyone agrees there are flaws in the interpretation.
Not everyone agrees on anything, let alone on most of mounted combat!
In fact SKR himself admitted his interpretation was flawed as when he was challenged on certain rulings he wrote "Noting for personal houserule and errata-lobbying."
Unfortunately, there has been no errata.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Unfortunately, there has been no errata.
I just re-read that thread. I did see where he said it "was a change in 3.5" but I have not yet seen anything asserting that it actually is wrong.
I spent years believing your point of view, but I can't any more. To conclude you must move directly to them and not obliquely then you need to add words. This breaks Ride By Attack and other things. It can't be right.
Given that common sense, SKR and and the 3.5 FAQ to the exact same question (and neither the charge rules, the mounted combat rules or RBA were changed) both say the same thing: Draw a line that goes by the target, not through him, I think the matter is settled.
"Draw a line that goes by the target, not through him", this is the ruling I will be using in my game, it works, it's not game-breaking (at least, not yet) and it's easy to explain.
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"Draw a line that goes by the target, not through him", this is the ruling I will be using in my game, it works, it's not game-breaking (at least, not yet) and it's easy to explain.
And that verbiage should probably exist in RBA as the rule-change to clear up any doubt.
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Given that common sense, SKR and and the 3.5 FAQ to the exact same question (and neither the charge rules, the mounted combat rules or RBA were changed) both say the same thing: Draw a line that goes by the target, not through him, I think the matter is settled.
I agree that this is a reasonable conclusion, but it is a houserule.
The rules are badly written. Here is the 3.5 FAQ about Ride-By Attack, which is pertinent to this discussion:
________________________________________________
With the rules erratum that prohibits overruns as part of a charge, the Ride-By Attack feat is now nearly useless. You must use the charge action to use the Ride-By Attack feat, and that requires you to travel in a straight line toward your target. Using the example in the PH, this would appear to rather specifically mean along a line from your entire square (or squares if riding a horse or other mount with a space of 10 feet or greater), to the target square. Ride-By Attack allows you to continue moving along the straight line of the charge after your attack. This would have to mean that at some point you would enter the square (or squares) of the creature you attacked. (At least I cannot conceive of any other way it could be done). Since you cannot enter your foe’s space unless the creature is already dead, Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless if you can’t also overrun the foe. Some have suggested that you could charge in a manner that would not bring you through the target creature’s square (or squares). To do so, you would not be charging directly toward the target and likely not moving by the shortest route (also a charge requirement) or attacking it from the first possible square(another charge requirement). In any of these cases, you would be breaking the rules for a charge. Am I wrong about any of this?
No, you’ve got it about right.
When using the Ride-By attack feat, you must conduct your charge so that you move in a straight line toward the closest square from which it is possible to attack your chosen foe, so long as it is a square that allows you to attack and then continue on in the straight line of the charge. You still must attack your foe the moment you reach that square. (Although the feat description doesn’t say so, you and your mount also must move at least 5 feet after you make your attack to get the benefit of the feat.) This is a special rule for charging when using the Ride-By Attack feat. Note that the Flyby Attack feat (discussed in the previous question) does not require you to move in a straight line. You merely make a single move and take another standard action at some point during that move.
________________________________________________
The language of the feat and the relevant charge rules have not changed significantly between 3.5 and Pathfinder.
Pathfinder is not 3.5, and the 3.5 FAQ is not RAW, but there is not yet any official FAQ in Pathfinder for this feat, or a mounted charge.
The only thing that will really settle it is errata so that the rules are clear and easily understood.
I hope if and when Paizo provides errata, it is better than the 3.5 FAQ!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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moving by the shortest route (also a charge requirement)
Despite me believing there was a rule for this for years, there is no rule in Pathfinder charge that requires you take the shortest route to the charge target. You are just required to attack on the earliest square on the route you take and there must be a square on your route.
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For the purpose of this, P=player, T=target, A/B/C/X=open squaresXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXAX
PXXXXXXXBT
XXXXXXXXCX
XXXXXXXXXXIf I am at P and want to charge and attack T, I can charge to A, B, or C because they are all the same...
This is very succinct and clear, and is the best answer I have seen so far.
Thank you! :-)
I will draw the attention of my fellow PFS GMs to this, as none of us could work out how Ride-By Attack was meant to work. It will also have an impact on how people rule on charging.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Would the below work?
X = empty space
T = target
S = starting space
C = charge path
XXXXXXCCCCCC
SCCCCCTXXXXX
So, the charger moves directly toward the target along the shortest possible path, satisfying the charge rules. He attacks, then shifts over one space as he continues in what ends up being a slightly-diagonal line (one that would be valid for lightning bolt, for instance).
So doesn't this mean that you can already do this using Ride-by Attack?
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Would the below work?
X = empty space
T = target
S = starting space
C = charge pathXXXXXXCCCCCC
SCCCCCTXXXXXSo, the charger moves directly toward the target along the shortest possible path, satisfying the charge rules. He attacks, then shifts over one space as he continues in what ends up being a slightly-diagonal line (one that would be valid for lightning bolt, for instance).
So doesn't this mean that you can already do this using Ride-by Attack?
Seems legit, as per the rules/SKR's diagrams. Of course, this would also be allowed:
X = empty space
T = target
S = starting space
C = charge path
A = Space Attacked from
XXXXXACCCCCC
SCCCCXTXXXXX
or
SCCCCXTXXXXX
XXXXXACCCCCC
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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closest space
I understand this view, I held it for years.
I understand that there may be a view that says SKR acknowledged he was wrong.I'm not convinced he is wrong, and even if the rules don't make it clear which way to do it. We should choose the view that matches SKR's original view. That view is that he can charge indirectly and attack from the closest space he can attack the target.
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I always understood the charge rules to mean that, if you charge from a position where the closest square from which you can attack does not end up being in line with the enemy, then you can Ride-By Attack, otherwise the only benefit you get from Ride-By Attack is that you can continue one more square and let your non-reach mount attack as well.
Ride-By Attack does not grant your non-reach mount the ability to attack if your mount could not attack already. Ride-By Attack states "When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge)."
With Ride-By Attack, you make a 'standard charge', and then move.
If your 'standard charge' does not include your mount attacking, then your mount cannot attack. However, the reverse is also true - if your 'standard charge' allows your mount to attack, then using Ride-By Attack does not prevent your mount from attacking.
To sum up, Ride-By Attack has no impact on whether your mount can attack or not. It theoretically allows your mount to continue moving after your mounted charge, and prevents attacks of opportunity. It does not allow your mount to perform a 'standard charge', move (continuing the straight line of the charge), and then attack.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Shifting lanes does not qualify as "continuing the straight line of the charge" in my understanding.
Wait, you don't allow diagonal charges? Do you allow diagonal lightning bolts? Because the charge lane I drew is one of the CRB's examples of a straight line for "Line" areas (ala lightning bolt). I'm not sure why it would count as a straight line for spells but not for charging.
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Shifting lanes does not qualify as "continuing the straight line of the charge" in my understanding.Wait, you don't allow diagonal charges? Do you allow diagonal lightning bolts? Because the charge lane I drew is one of the CRB's examples of a straight line for "Line" areas (ala lightning bolt). I'm not sure why it would count as a straight line for spells but not for charging.
I was just about to make this point. I agree, you can definitely make diagonal charges.
P=player's starting position, T=target, X=open squares, L= Charge Lane, Y= Lance attack occurs here, A, B, C= Legitimate places to charge to, A= Mount attack occurs here, mount is moving not charging after this. Z=Movement stops here.
X X X X Y A L L L L Z
P L L L X B T X X X X
X X X X X C X X X X X
If you count the squares, A, B, & C are all 7 squares from the player's start position at P. Hence they should be legitimate targets to charge at. They are all the 'closest' square.
Admittedly, I can see that argument can be made that square B is closer than A or C.
If this is the GM's ruling, then you cannot use Ride-By Attack to do anything except to move closer to the target of the charge.
However, I believe that allowing this diagonal charge is closest to the RAI.
Edit: Curse this lack of WYSIWYG