The save DC used to be 10 + Barb level + Cha mod. Now it is 10 + 1/2 Barb level + Con mod, according to both the PRD and d20pfsrd.
I did not see anything in the UC FAQ, nor a link to the change on d20pfsrd, when and where did this actually get changed?
With the recent errata to Ultimate Combat.
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Yep. UC errata.
It kinda snuck in under the radar with the Crane Wing debacle taking center stage, but it seems the dev team thought Wild Rager needed a nerf...for some reason.
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With all more pressing stuff that needs to actually get errata they pick the strangest things. And really did they really need to make it easier for the Wild Rager to attack their own party members. Was there really DMS either PFS or otherwise complaining that Wild Ragers were not more confused and needed to be.
Well, before the DC is bs insane-hard for a person advancing as a Barbarian and just a horrible archetype for them. But, as a 1-2 level dip with poor Cha, it was a nice way to get more rage in your day w/ little chance of PK-ing, and you lacked the rage powers to care about that annoyance.
Now...it's useless to everybody. Yay!
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Well, before the DC is bs insane-hard for a person advancing as a Barbarian and just a horrible archetype for them. But, as a 1-2 level dip with poor Cha, it was a nice way to get more rage in your day w/ little chance of PK-ing, and you lacked the rage powers to care about that annoyance.
Now...it's useless to everybody. Yay!
Not surprised really. Either they ignore actual problems that need to get errata. Or they nerf something to be useless or almost. While almost always missing the mark when it comes to middle ground with errata.
do we have a list of what was erratted in the newest printing?
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Yep. UC errata.
It kinda snuck in under the radar with the Crane Wing debacle taking center stage, but it seems the dev team thought Wild Rager needed a nerf...for some reason.
It's almost as if it was a mistake in the first place to not have a standardized saving throw, like 99% of other abilities out there.
Nah, that's too far-fetched. They just wanted to nerf it.
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It's the only reasonable explanation for changing it.
"We wanted to standardize because reasons" is not a reasonable explanation unless the developers are secretly robots.
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It's the only reasonable explanation for changing it.
"We wanted to standardize because reasons" is not a reasonable explanation unless the developers are secretly robots.
Consistency in mechanics is a reason. . . a valid reason, its good game design to have things work the same way.
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i don't understand why people are complaining about the DC getting easier?
1- getting confused is supposed to be a drawback not a strength (even though some people just want to exploit it for extra rage).
2- (IIRC) you can always voluntarily fail a save (after all, that's what you do every time someone casts CLW on you)... so voluntarily fail the save when you want to risk the 'free' confused rage, and be glad for lower DC when its time to stop.
wait, is this because it used to say Cha instead of Con? cause you could dump Cha and dip 1-2 levels for nearly limitless rage with an easy save when you wanted to stop? that was an obvious error and of course they fixed it. in my home group we've always used Con for that save because Cha makes no sense whatsoever (which is why i assumed the save was getting easier).
Yeah I had already had it use Con since most barbarians dump charisma to the ground. Seemed silly and unintentional.
So in my games, I already had used 1/2 Barb level + Con to prevent making the save DC a non-issue. So this is no change for me.
i don't understand why people are complaining about the DC getting easier?
1- getting confused is supposed to be a drawback not a strength (even though some people just want to exploit it for extra rage).
2- (IIRC) you can always voluntarily fail a save (after all, that's what you do every time someone casts CLW on you)... so voluntarily fail the save when you want to risk the 'free' confused rage, and be glad for lower DC when its time to stop.wait, is this because it used to say Cha instead of Con? cause you could dump Cha and dip 1-2 levels for nearly limitless rage with an easy save when you wanted to stop? that was an obvious error and of course they fixed it. in my home group we've always used Con for that save because Cha makes no sense whatsoever (which is why i assumed the save was getting easier).
The DC got harder, not easier.
Yes, it's supposed to be a drawback. It already was. The archetype was pretty terrible.
Now it's pretty much impossible to make the save against it.
It didn't get harder, it went sideways. . . it was switched to base off a more intuitive ability score for a barbarian ability but reduced to 1/2 your class level instead of the full level;
This made it harder for low level dips of the archetype and easier from somewhere between 4th and 8th level on.
Level 12 Barbarian 22 14 16 10 12 10 (+6 rage) Will save +8
18 str +4 belt, no bonus to con
Old DC (10+12+0) = 22
New DC (10+5+6) = 21
Extreme Example Barbarian Dwarf
20 starting con +6 con belt 5 starting cha
22 14 26 10 12 5
Old DC 19
New DC 28
No cloak of resistance bonus, no iron will, +8 will save.
I thought it was always 1/2 level + Cha?
That makes more sense.
Extreme Example Barbarian Dwarf20 starting con +6 con belt 5 starting cha
22 14 26 10 12 5
Old DC 19
New DC 28
No cloak of resistance bonus, no iron will, +8 will save.
How are you getting the old DC to 19?
10 + 20 - 3 = 27
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Extreme Example Barbarian Dwarf20 starting con +6 con belt 5 starting cha
22 14 26 10 12 5
Old DC 19
New DC 28
No cloak of resistance bonus, no iron will, +8 will save.
How are you getting the old DC to 19?
10 + 20 - 3 = 27
Level 12
A level 20 dwarf wild rager would have
Old save 27
New save
10
20/2 = +10
26+8 (tireless rage)= 34 con = +12
DC 32
- * -
New DC in Glutton example
base 10
level 12/2 = +6
C0n 26 + 6 for greater rage = 32 = +11
DC 27
I am missing something?
wait, is this because it used to say Cha instead of Con? cause you could dump Cha and dip 1-2 levels for nearly limitless rage with an easy save when you wanted to stop? that was an obvious error and of course they fixed it. in my home group we've always used Con for that save because Cha makes no sense whatsoever (which is why i assumed the save was getting easier).
Yes. Lots can dump cha, no one is going to dump Con (and being in rage raises Con by 4 anyway).
Before, it was obscenely high for a Barb 1-20 build, and extremely easy for a dipper, due to the full Barb level adding.
Now, it is high for anyone.
Getting some extra rage rounds per day is not worth actually getting confused frequently, possibly killing allies or standing around doing nothing, and losing access to 2/3 of your class features (rage powers).
If you think all of that bad stuff is worth what will generally work out to getting a free Extra Rage feat, you're freaking crazy. The ONLY thing making Wild Rager viable for anyone at all before was for dipping. Now it's a trap for any character.
wild rager is for dips, this change is inconsequential. you were never supposed to use the rage, it is always a liability.
I likewise think this change is standardization, which is fine. The ability should be better designed in the first place.