Natural Attack Damage: Str x 1,5 ?

[Calimar_T]

Hi,

this may be a total Newbie Question (well...) but i have to ask anyway:

Following the Summon Monster Statblocks here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster/summon-monster-1- statblocks

The augmented "Dire Rat" has a Str of 14 and does 1d4+2 Damage.

As the Bite is its only Attack, shouldn't it be 1d4+3, according to:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Natural-Attacks

"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls."

Or are there another set of rules which i overlooked (e.g.for creatures smaller than medium) ?

Regards, Calimar.

[Torbyne]

Nope, looks like a typo to me.

[Lipto the Shiv]

Yeah, to the best of my knowledge that's correct. Going up a few levels and looking at the summoned boar, it follows that rule so yeah, augmented rat 1d4+3 sounds about right.

[Majuba]

You are entirely correct Calimar.

D20pfsrd.com is not an official site, and is not always a particularly reliable site for information. This is one good example.

[Calimar_T]

Hm, all the Creatures from the Statblock 1 don't account for the x1,5 Str Mod... and all are small.

So i thought, that maybe there are an additional Set of Rules for Creatures smaller than medium.

Thanks :)

[Majuba]

Useful product:
Monster Cards - mostly accurate I've found, including augmented details for each.

Also: Nature's Ally Cards, although I have less experience verifying this one.

[Nefreet]

Majuba has it. d20pfsrd is a 3rd party site, and is useful to a point, but is prone to errors, typos, offering 3rd party material, and changing names to avoid copyright infringement.

[Grain_of_Salt]

If a Small creature's natural weapon was considered Light, it would not get the 1-1/2 times Strength modifier to the damage roll.

I can't make a connection between these two rules, however. In the Combat section, there is reference to each of these rules, but nothing to connect them.

However, I think it is a perfectly viable interpretation of the rule to say that no matter how strong a small creature is, there's only so much damage its small weapon can do.

Make a House decision, maybe.

[Torbyne]

Natural attacks dont have a light, one handed, two handed category. Also, their weapons would still be scaled to their size and for them at least would be of normal weight.

[Krodjin]

Grain_of_Salt wrote:

If a Small creature's natural weapon was considered Light, it would not get the 1-1/2 times Strength modifier to the damage roll.

I can't make a connection between these two rules, however. In the Combat section, there is reference to each of these rules, but nothing to connect them.

However, I think it is a perfectly viable interpretation of the rule to say that no matter how strong a small creature is, there's only so much damage its small weapon can do.

Make a House decision, maybe.

where does it say that small creatures natural weapons are light and therefore don't get 1.5x STR?

As far as I can tell all Natural Weapons are light - thus finesseable, but the 1.5x STR still applies if its the only natural weapon a creature has.

I could be wrong - but I'd like to see the rules source to be sure.

[Torbyne]

Krodjin wrote:

Grain_of_Salt wrote:

If a Small creature's natural weapon was considered Light, it would not get the 1-1/2 times Strength modifier to the damage roll.

I can't make a connection between these two rules, however. In the Combat section, there is reference to each of these rules, but nothing to connect them.

However, I think it is a perfectly viable interpretation of the rule to say that no matter how strong a small creature is, there's only so much damage its small weapon can do.

Make a House decision, maybe.

where does it say that small creatures natural weapons are light and therefore don't get 1.5x STR?

As far as I can tell all Natural Weapons are light - thus finesseable, but the 1.5x STR still applies if its the only natural weapon a creature has.

I could be wrong - but I'd like to see the rules source to be sure.

Yeah, i went digging into natural attacks for a potential build recently, they only come in Primary and Secondary flavours so no lightness or two handedness.

[Krodjin]

They are still finesseable are they not? For some reason I was under that impression - but I very well could be wrong.

[Harakani]

Quote:

If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Check out "natural attacks"

[Rikkan]

Natural weapons are light weapons. See: this.

[fretgod99]

Rikkan wrote:

Natural weapons are light weapons. See: this.

Yup, so they are finessable. And a single natural weapon or a dragon's bite still benefits from the 1.5 STR rule because there's a specific rule stating as much.

Natural Weapons >

and all that.

[Rynjin]

Majuba wrote:

You are entirely correct Calimar.

D20pfsrd.com is not an official site, and is not always a particularly reliable site for information. This is one good example.

It's usually just as reliable as the PRD, often moreso.

Most mistakes on the SRD are present on the PRD as well.

Case in point, the PRD has the Dire Rat's attack listed as +1 (with 10 Str and 0 BaB). Which is a bit odd, but the SRD copied that because that's how it's listed in the book.

Now, the SRD has a separate "Summoned Creature: Dire Rat" statblock that doesn't take the rule into account but that's hardly a reason to say it's an unreliable source, all the things listed in the books are copied correctly (it's the stuff they do themselves that occasionally has issues).

Its extra content has problems sometimes, but not often, and it's more content than the PRD provides (and easier to search).

[Rikkan]

Rynjin wrote:

Most mistakes on the SRD are present on the PRD as well.

Case in point, the PRD has the Dire Rat's attack listed as +1 (with 10 Str and 0 BaB).

Small size gives a +1 to hit.

[Rynjin]

See it's easy to make little mistakes like that. =(

But the point stands, there are a lot of things wrong (or a bit off) on the PRD that are on the SRD as well. Difference being a lot of the time the SRD has a little sidebar that says "These values are off, we urge GMs to change them to X".

[Grain_of_Salt]

Rikkan wrote:

Natural weapons are light weapons. See: this.

Thanks, Rikkan. I knew I was on the right track, but I couldn't make the connection. I appreciate the help!

[Calimar_T]

So,
to sum up:

Every Natural Weapon counts as light for the purposes of Weapon Finesse and for "can it claw his way out of a monster if swallowed" and similar things...

Every Creature with only one Attack gets the Str x 1,5 Bonus, regardless of size.

All Exceptions are noted in the Stats of the Monsters (like the Dragon, which gets the Bonus on his Bite, even if he has more attacks).

Thanks all :)