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I realize this discussion has been touched often before, but the last time it was posted clocks in at about 2 years ago. I figure it's time to resurrect the topic.
To disclaim, I am aware that there are two Third-Party books by Little Red Goblin Games. I have bought them and read them. While I find the ideas presented there admirable and even intriguing (I so do enjoy the thought of additional alchemist grand discoveries, upping the DC of poisons, and the "eureka bombs" intriguing, speaking solely of the one class I'm most using currently), seem to require a fair number of additional third-party rules.
Mythic tiers are nice, but I consider them more a separate mechanic than an answer to epic levels.
So, the question remains: is the idea of epic levels for each class still alive?
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I wonder why is everybody so eager to cap the level off at 20th level.
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I realize this discussion has been touched often before, but the last time it was posted clocks in at about 2 years ago. I figure it's time to resurrect the topic.
To disclaim, I am aware that there are two Third-Party books by Little Red Goblin Games. I have bought them and read them. While I find the ideas presented there admirable and even intriguing (I so do enjoy the thought of additional alchemist grand discoveries, upping the DC of poisons, and the "eureka bombs" intriguing, speaking solely of the one class I'm most using currently), seem to require a fair number of additional third-party rules.
Mythic tiers are nice, but I consider them more a separate mechanic than an answer to epic levels.
So, the question remains: is the idea of epic levels for each class still alive?
I am about 99.99% sure that Mythic is suppose to scratch the "epic level" niche, and that we will never see a dedicated epic level book for in the 3.0/3.5 sense of the word
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I am about 99.99% sure that Mythic is suppose to scratch the "epic level" niche, and that we will never see a dedicated epic level book for in the 3.0/3.5 sense of the word
There's always 3rd Party:
Well....I should say I meant produced by Paizo.
I agree that mythic tiers are not meant to "replace" epic, but I also don't think that epic levels is something that will come in the near future (<3 years, random guess). Mainly because mythic has so much to offer at all levels of play.
That being said, I wouldn't mind some (more) epic level stuff.
I kinda like the "beyond 20th" approach of the CRB, except "martials" should get higher bonuses to iterative attacks, so they approach +max/+max/+max/+max (something like at BAB +22 and every two beyond the 'penalty' to iteratives is reduced by one, to a max of no penalty for second at +30, third at +40.) ((maybe even at +21 and every +1 beyond.))
It's not >9th level spell slots, but it's something.
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I wonder why is everybody so eager to cap the level off at 20th level.
1} A single class is capped at 20th. There's nothing actually stopping you from multiclassing or taking prestige classes. The game can continue if you want it to.
2} Because the math starts to fall down, mainly with regards to saving throws. At 20th you've got a variance of 6 between your good and bad saving throws. At low levels you don't generally have that, so your odds of succeeding at good/bad saves are reasonably close. At 20th (and beyond) it just becomes a case of "find the bad save, target it, and watch the opponent auto-fail". You can only make up so much of that difference with magic items.
3} Content. What do you really give a 29th-level wizard? More spell slots? Seriously? Compare what a 9th-level wizard can do versus a 19th-level wizard. Giving a wizard "more per day" sucks. Same with all casters.
4} Did I mention the math breaks down? With iteratives at -5, the disparity between "might hit" and "absolutely will hit" becomes absolute. At BAB 6, when you get your first iterative attack, you know your primary attack will probably hit and your secondary probably won't but... might. At BAB 26, when your d20 roll doesn't matter as much as which iterative you're rolling, you're in a much worse position. If your attack at +26 will probably hit, your attack at +6 has to be a natural 20. Probably the same for your +11 attack, and maybe even your +16 attack.
I am about 99.99% sure that Mythic is suppose to scratch the "epic level" niche, and that we will never see a dedicated epic level book for in the 3.0/3.5 sense of the wordThere's always 3rd Party:
Already noted.
To disclaim, I am aware that there are two Third-Party books by Little Red Goblin Games. I have bought them and read them. While I find the ideas presented there admirable and even intriguing (I so do enjoy the thought of additional alchemist grand discoveries, upping the DC of poisons, and the "eureka bombs" intriguing, speaking solely of the one class I'm most using currently), seem to require a fair number of additional third-party rules.
1} We would still have to contend with unrefined epic rules even if characters can take other classes. 'Tis not solely about the class progression.
2}Math is a universal language. If the math starts to break down, then simply change the equation from that point on. This would be one of the challenges faced in reworking epic levels.
3} Content is exactly why I like Paizo! They did a marvelous job fixing the problems from 3.5, such as redundant skills, empty levels, and the like. They can do the same for the later levels.
4} See #2.
The problems with epic level -can- be addressed, though it's no mean feat, which is why I presume Paizo is taking its time developing it (if they are). I agree the game has much to offer as is, but we can't really use that as an excuse not to do it. A company doesn't stop putting out products simply because it's already done a lot. It's always meant to push to the next great thing.
I agree that epic as it is does not work that well and yes, it will most likely need an even greater overhaul than base 3.5 did with Pathfinder, but it is also an iconic stage of the game and I'd be sad to see it eschewed or even abandoned indefinitely. If properly handled, epic levels could be exactly what it says on the tin.
*boop*
You can very easily do Mythic Tiers AS Epic Levels, happening after level 20.
Honestly though, I played an Epic campaign and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Same s#!+, bigger numbers. At least Mythic mixes it up and actually adds to the versatility of a character.
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Epic's problem from my position, which I think Mythic touched on very well, is it solved the 'where were these til now' problem.
3e had to get around this by creating an entire goofy city where 16th level fighters had nothing better to do then join the City Watch for an extradimensional city where they got to pound the beat despite the fact they could've been warlords or heroes somewhere else. Essentially 3e just made 'normal but higher level' which didn't work for the epic feel.
I admit I've always liked the epic level spell mechanics from 3e though. But that being said, epic is really more a place for placeholder NPC types, as opposed to PCs.
Mythic accomplishes the 'feeling like a hero of yore' feel much better. You can play King Arthur now, without having to be level 29 and able to punch through mountains.
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Maybe it's that I like high level play and playing casters, but I for one would love some support for higher level stuff. It's just a shame that the general view around here is that anything above level 10 is poison. If some mechanics on saves were done differently, I'm sure that wouldn't necessarily be the case, but I still have fun for what it's worth. Maybe there's a minority of players that agree with me on that.
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At this point, I don't expect or need another ELH, the mythic stuff has one great advantage over epic, you can use it at lower levels.
Plenty of people think that the game starts to fall apart after level 15 so you are limiting your audience to a point where it seem a really bad idea to produce content for it.
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Higher level play changes, not so much 'falls apart.'
The problem is people want 20th level characters to boot in a 20th level door, and come across a 20th level CR Orc guarding a 20th level chest.
In other words they want the same thing, just bigger.
The higher level campaign is a lot more mobile, and actually focuses more on personalities and story. It also requires the DM to put the kibosh on gamist thinking or attempts to mutilate the RAW towards unrealistic ends.
My problem with high level Pathfinder (levels 12+) is that the role of the dice quickly becomes meaningless. There are so many bonuses and numbers that a D20 or D8 is essentially irrelevant. At that point you are just going to tell the GM what you do and he informs you whether you succeed or not which is little different than a story game. So why not play a story game that functions much better at doing that?
Besides, when you think Epic level play, what do you think the characters should be doing and are those things different from what they are doing at 15 - 20? At 15 - 20 you are plane hopping, dragon killing, world altering, and building empires that stretch continents. Besides killing gods, what else is there to do?
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My problem with high level Pathfinder (levels 12+) is that the role of the dice quickly becomes meaningless. There are so many bonuses and numbers that a D20 or D8 is essentially irrelevant. At that point you are just going to tell the GM what you do and he informs you whether you succeed or not which is little different than a story game. So why not play a story game that functions much better at doing that?
Ironically this wasn't as much of a problem prior to 3e. In Pathfinder and 3e, defenses lag behind attacks. Its damn near impossible to keep your AC up to par against an opponent's attack bonus. The 'first attack always hits' thing starts to show up around level 10-13 thanks to how many bonuses are floating around (our 2e breathern didn't even really get str bonuses).
The trick is to make the fights fun, but not the primary focus. As levels increase, combat should decrease. Both for the reasons you state, and because it pushes the realm of the believable to have suitably powerful foes appearing that frequently.
The 'Where the hell were all these atropal scions when we were level 3' thing.
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The APs dont go to 20 for a reason.
While true, that reason has nothing to do with high level play. APs don't go to 20 because it's hard to stuff that much XP into an adventure and still leave a decent plotline, all while following the 6 month schedule that works for Paizo.
Look at how often threads pop up about "adventure 7"s for popular APs. Also people like the idea of getting to their capstone abilities. It's also a pretty popular subject to talk about changing the AP structure to allow parties to hit 20...even though that's much less likely than an epic hardcover.
I honestly would like to see a book that offered advice for playing in the 15+ range. High level play can be done with the existing rules, it can be fun, and it doesn't have to be rocket tag or a caster fest. I've played games up to 22nd level where the fighter was extremely useful. There are ways to do it, but apparently many people don't know them. Thus an advice book would be useful. I'd combine it with firmer guideline about going past 20, perhaps emphasizing 21-25.
I don't think the 3.0 ELH approach of uncapped levels is a good way to go. I would like to see "better than 9th" level spells - 2e had some good fun "10th level spells" that let you do things like make a castle overnight or raise an undead army all at once.
I agree, I love capstone abilities! But you never get to see any of them because few people want to run a campaign that long.
Very frustrating, if you ask me.
I agree with everything Spook said. If you want Epic level content for combat reasons, you are probably going to be disappointed. Most players don't play above level 10, and even fewer want to play above 20. Pathfinder has attempted to balance everything from 1-20 and that includes monsters and whatnot.
If you begin making the game more about story lines and role playing and less about battles, you will be able to play a bit further on.
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I agree, I love capstone abilities! But you never get to see any of them because few people want to run a campaign that long.
Very frustrating, if you ask me.
One houserule that I've seen is simply moving the capstone abilities to the campaign's final level, whatever that may be. So if the AP says you should be 17th when fighting the end boss, get your capstone ability at 17th.
I agree with everything Spook said. If you want Epic level content for combat reasons, you are probably going to be disappointed. Most players don't play above level 10, and even fewer want to play above 20. Pathfinder has attempted to balance everything from 1-20 and that includes monsters and whatnot.
If you begin making the game more about story lines and role playing and less about battles, you will be able to play a bit further on.
I dunno about that. If you can deal with going without some of the save or die/suck abilities, you can keep things going well past 10. Unfortunately, whoever runs the game gets to set the level.
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There is a nice conversion of the D&D Epic Level Handbook at jessesdnd.com. The nice thing about it is that its author offered it up for free.
Dot.
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I wonder why is everybody so eager to cap the level off at 20th level.
While it is true that "20th level" only has meaning in the context of the system, all the math is built around it. Trying to bolt on bigger numbers after the fact hasn't worked well (see D&D 3rd edition Epic Level Handbook).
Our version of epic level is Mythic Adventures.
We have no plans (and, frankly, no interest) in expanding the level limit for PCs past 20. The game isn't built for that.
Welp, that answers that.
I dunno about that. If you can deal with going without some of the save or die/suck abilities, you can keep things going well past 10. Unfortunately, whoever runs the game gets to set the level.I agree with everything Spook said. If you want Epic level content for combat reasons, you are probably going to be disappointed. Most players don't play above level 10, and even fewer want to play above 20. Pathfinder has attempted to balance everything from 1-20 and that includes monsters and whatnot.
If you begin making the game more about story lines and role playing and less about battles, you will be able to play a bit further on.
You can finesse it for sure. And maybe there is enough demand for someone to release level progressions beyond 20. But it takes some adjusting and there's a lot of math. As was mentioned, your bonuses make the die rolls hilariously insignificant. You typically want to keep combat to once a game session to reduce length and because the locales and circumstances you would encounter challenging enough enemies should be pretty rare for most worlds.
I wonder why is everybody so eager to cap the level off at 20th level.While it is true that "20th level" only has meaning in the context of the system, all the math is built around it. Trying to bolt on bigger numbers after the fact hasn't worked well (see D&D 3rd edition Epic Level Handbook).
It worked very well up to level 26 at least.
I'm kinda sad this will never happen, but I'm still holding out for hope we will get rules and stats for gods.
This is because the kind of story I'm most interested in playing involves contending with gods.
The Mythic book was alright but it does not do what epic players really want. People don't get the idea of what the actual level cap actually is. Most games don't go past level 15. You see that nice level 20 ability that you really want? Yeah your never going to get that.
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The Mythic book was alright but it does not do what epic players really want. People don't get the idea of what the actual level cap actually is. Most games don't go past level 15. You see that nice level 20 ability that you really want? Yeah your never going to get that.
And that is a huge shame. Some of those abilities would be hilariously fun and there are times you even see similar abilities on monsters well under CR 20. Seems more than a bit of a tease.
There's another thread around here that gives good tips for GMs who want to run level 12+. I'm sure that if some people were able to get a grasp of that sort of thing, more people may realize that Epic additions would be fun, too.
Personally, I have no interest in super-high-level play. For me the "sweet spot" of both playing and GMing is levels 6-10.
Much beyond that, combats get really complex, math-heavy, and start to make me think of the excesses of a Michael Bay movie: Lots of huge explosions that don't enhance the story all that much.
Given the current state of the rules, I don't know if rules for levels beyond 20th are necessary.
What would be the goal of such a product? To allow characters to do the crazy high-level stuff that such play is supposed to provide? That's already more or less covered by using Mythic Adventures + high-level play.
Would it be just to remove any sort of hard cap on the game? In that case, the Core Rulebook has brief guidelines about post-level 20 play. Sure, they're not terribly robust, but they easily allow for characters to reach levels 21-23 or so while finishing a campaign. No huge epic abilities involved, but again there's Mythic Adventures for that.
It seems to me that the feel of an epic-level game could be handled quite easily by playing a game to 20th level and then giving the characters mythic power. That would basically do what the epic level rules of 3rd edition D&D wanted to do, but the math would work out better.
If Paizo did do a post-20th level play book at some point, it would have to be markedly different in feel from Mythic Adventures. I'm not sure what the game needs that such a book could add.
Wasn't there something in one of the core books about adventures and experience beyond level 20?
I think you two misunderstand me, I don't think mid-level abilities are poison, I'm saying that too many GMs I know treat it as if it were. And I think it does have to do with the mindsets that people will optimize characters. I believe that if a GM and players work together, they can make things that aren't inherently broken, but still fun.
As for the caster vs martial descrepincy, I'm not sure that's always necessarily the case. Sure, fighters could use more toys, but barbarians can stand toe to toe with casters levels above their own. Even rogues can start dropping major beat downs if properly buffed.
And that's the thing. Proper buffs change encounters and characters. A group is more than the sum of its parts. The Alchemist takes the Infusion discovery to give extracts of Greater Invisibility and Fluid Form to the Rogue. The Sorcerer uses Magic Jar to give the Barbarian's body Form of the Dragon # before switching souls back to his own. And this is all perfectly fine and FUN. A bit broken, maybe, but not past the point you can have FUN.
I guess my advice would be make the game fun for all involved. If the wizard wants to do his thing up in his tower away from the world with all these armies and called monsters people keep bringing up, it should be fully within the party's rights (GM included) to just glare at that player until they're done wanting to play a single player game and get back to having fun with people.
EDIT: I may have crossed this thread over with the "Tips for High Level GMs" in my mind. Gonna crosslink over there as to get the message to where it should actually be.
I have to say as a fan of epic level play, Mythic really scratched that epic level itch. If you can challenge (maybe not easily defeat) demi god powered things such as Demon lords, Arch devils, and empyreal lords I say that is high enough. The death of gods should be super divine cataclysmic events that are beyond the ability of mortals. Lets face it as a top mythic tier 20th level mortal you can already effect events on a global and even eternal scale (by killing demigods). Why do you need to go further than that?
That's a rather exaggerated viewpoint. What you have to acknowledge is that things rapidly become dicey after 16th level. The higher level you go you have two basic problems.
1. Rocket tag. Offensive moves become so dominant the game rapidly gets to a point where moving second equals dead.
2. The Caster/Martial discrepancy becomes even more extreme. it's not surprising that "you like playing casters" as the epic level game is essentially a caster's game.
I think 1) isn't necessarily the case and 2) is a tributary into a larger stream.
Rocket tag is at every level. Our group in Way of the Wicked rocket tagged more CR appropriate foes levels 1-3 (just leveled to 4th) than our fifteenth level Savage Tide group managed to.
But... enemies at fifteenth level take a lot more work to make. So the ratio of prep work to rocket tag goes up, by a huge amount.
Or at least, that's the way I think that it works.
The really basic problem is "complex and burdensome to GM." If you could whip up a 15th level foe in the same time you can a 1st level thug, I think that lot more people would brave the disparity and the rocket tag.
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IMHO mythics are all you need.
After 10 tiers and 20 levels your characters are demi-gods and can reasonably slay actual gods (with GM fiat since gods are not stated).
I see little reason for things like epic feats and epic class features, mythics fill that role pretty well. Now removing the level cap of 20 is perfectly reasonable, but I think at that point you should just start taking levels in another class.
The problem with using Mythic Adventures to extend play beyond 20th level is that you need to plan ahead to a certain extent. If the party is 10th level when you introduce the mythic rules, that would work fine. But if they are already 19th or 20th leven when you bring them in, it won't work as well because the mythic rules seem to assume that you are still gaining ordinary levels as you gain mythic tiers.
If your player characters are approaching 20th level and you have decided that you don't want to stop there, you need to decide at that point just how far you want to go beyond 20th level. The three options I am aware of (Pathfinder core rules, Little Red Goblin Games' Legendary Levels, and Jesse Jones' Epic Pathfinder rules) all have different implications at 21st level and beyond, so your players will need to know enough to plan accordingly. The main basis for deciding which to use seems to be just how far beyond 20th level you plan to go:
1) Pathfinder core rules system works best if you only want to go a few levels past 20th.
2) Legendary Levels has a hard cap of 30th level.
3) Jesse Jones' system is as open ended as the Epic Level Handbook rules it is based on.
You can start Mythics after lvl 20 with no problems.
I would be happy with more level 15-20 game content. Something so we can finally get to that level 20 cap more often.
I think the sweet spot is around level 22 to 26... Which doesn't really require you to have an Epic level handbook. Six levels past 20 gives you plenty of time to enjoy your capstone and to flesh out your character by giving him additional levels from another class.
I have only reached epic level twice and have been playing pen and paper games for over a decade... that doesn't stike me as a huge hole that needs filled. There are rules in place for 20+ gameplay even if they aren't fleshed out. Add in Mythic play and you have everything you really need.
Now a Divine book on the other hand, would be great. A book of all the Deities stated out... if for no other reason then to give my groups something to debate("God A could totally take out God B in a fight!").