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Alright, who can come up with a more damaging martial build than Teddy Rosy? He's a Human Two-Handed Weapon (archetype) fighter with a Falchion. He doesn't mess around with spring attack or anything craze. There is nothing revolutionary about the build - he grabs all the usual feats. I'm just curious if there is any way to get even more damage.
His 12th Level DPR against an AC 27 enemy is 81.
1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Falchion, Furious Focus
2: Cleave
3: Dodge
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Toughness
6: Vital Strike
7: Combat Reflexes
8: Improved Critical (Retrain Cleave to Lunge)
9: Critical Focus
10: Greater Weapon Focus
11: Improved Sunder
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Sundering Strike
14: Staggering Critical
15: Blinding Critical
16: Critical Mastery
17: Stunning Critical
18: Iron Will
19: Improved Iron Will
20: Improved Initiative
STR:20 (18+2)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS:11
CHA: 7
Or, a better formatted and more thorough look here.
So, two-handed really is the best way to go. Does somebody have something better? Or anything obvious I've missed?
Without looking it up, I believe this is a similar build to Falchion Fred from the DPR Olympics.
I would change the weapon of choice from Falchion to Nodachi. It has the same average damage ratio (it's actually easier to max out damage) and Critical Multipliers, but being able to count as 2 damage types for attacks is a huge benefit in the early levels, and by the end levels, it reduces the need for secondary weapons that much more. Plus some other goodies it has that the Falchion doesn't.
When you hit level 12, you can retrain Vital Strike for a more useful feat, since having 3 Attacks makes Vital Strike useless, the same as your Cleave does for 8th level.
I wouldn't really bother with Toughness as a feat, since 1 HP/Level isn't really that worthwhile for a feat, and the Two-Handed Fighter's premise is to kill them before they kill you. Having a strong Initiative to start is the best way to do it.
The Feat "Strong Comeback" synergizes well with the Improved Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes, and since the Fighter's effectiveness can be taken out with one Save or Suck/Die spell, making sure the reroll is good is definitely worth a feat compared to (at best) 20 hit points by the end-game, and when you have a Defiant property weapon, being able to do that several more times per day makes the feat more usable than 20 hit points will ever be. Although casters are squishy, lines of defenses, like Mirror Image, will be interfering greatly with your ability to land a successful hit and dealing damage, and having some defenses to counter their debuffs/save or suck/die spells is going to help you win fights more than 20 hit points by the end-game.
Other than that, the build looks solid to me, and seems quite similar to The Ultimate Fighter I designed.
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Without looking it up, I believe this is a similar build to Falchion Fred from the DPR Olympics.
I believe this actually outperforms Fred, mostly by virtue of being the Two-Handed Fighter Archetype. I think Fred's 10th level DPR is 60... but that's with a +3 falchion and a belt of +4 Strength.
Teddy's 12th level DPR is 81 without any magical gear whatsoever. If Teddy was Level 10 with a +3 falchion and a belt of +4 strength, he would have a DPR of 99.
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What about this? Give it magic items and make the comparison. It will probably fall behind, but then again it is not reliant on full attacks.
Also Amy Alchy and a Huge pouncing Synthesist with many claws, feral combat training (claws), dragon ferocity and teh eldrich heritage (orc) feats could probably do better. Technically not a martial build, but it does not need to use a spell at all in order to achieve its godlike stats.
And compare it too with the Galeena, Captain Falcom and the Gundolon and a standard Pistolero that dual wields double-barreled pistols effectively (say a Tiefling with Vestigial tail) and uses Signature Deed (Up close and Deadly).
Sounds good, let's compare it.
The only we numbers we are given here are the level 17 damage: 22d6+43 non-lethal. Now, its difficult to compare these, given that no attack bonus is listed and he is so reliant on sneak attack. We can guess he is maybe attacking at +17 at level 12 (which is generous), giving him a 50% chance to hit a standard CR 12 enemy. Even if he was dealing the same damage at level 12 that he is at 17 (obviously not the case) That's a DPR of 60, which isn't close. Wiggz would need an attack of +23 to break even, and that assumes he is getting sneak attack and the enemy isn't immune to non-lethal. This is strictly worse.
Amy Alchy ain't a martial, so let's not bother. Also, the numbers on that document are all over the place.
Galeena is definitely not a martial, so let's not bother.
The Captain falcon build really isn't comparable. It's a level 20 theory craft that can nova 3 times a day. There is no way of knowing what it looks like at level 12, and it relies on so many buffs and rules "interpretations" that ... who knows. Don't get me wrong, I love it. But there is no way of looking at it.
I have absolutely no idea what Gundalon looks like at level 12. Any ideas? He doesn't have Deadly aim yet, so that's going to be a big problem.
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Hm, after seeing that Amy Alchy build, I wonder if a better chassis for that wouldn't be a Ragebred. You've got me interested in leveling up Harrison Zahhak to see if he could put up the numbers you're talking about. I'm assuming this is without magic items, is pre buffing allowed? Is it DPR Olympics rules, and if so, could someone post those for me?
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Teddy's 81 DPR is also without magic items or buffs, so we are on an even playing field. At 12th level, the only useful orc Eldrich heritage Wiggz can get is the +2 to strength, which doesn't nearly bridge the gap he needs.
Besides that, the fact that the build relies of sneak attack would make it inferior even if it deal an equivalent amount of damage.
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Hm, after seeing that Amy Alchy build, I wonder if a better chassis for that wouldn't be a Ragebred. You've got me interested in leveling up Harrison Zahhak to see if he could put up the numbers you're talking about. I'm assuming this is without magic items, is pre buffing allowed? Is it DPR Olympics rules, and if so, could someone post those for me?
If we are working off Teddy, let's do 20 point buy, no magic (or masterwork) items.
Teddy can do this all day and needs no buffs. But not everybody can be Teddy. Lets say one round of buffs and such a minor expenditure of resources that he could reach said DPR 7 times a day.
We are doing Level 12 against AC 27.
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Teddy's 81 DPR is also without magic items or buffs, so we are on an even playing field. At 12th level, the only useful orc Eldrich heritage Wiggz can get is the +2 to strength, which doesn't nearly bridge the gap he needs.
Besides that, the fact that the build relies of sneak attack would make it inferior even if it deal an equivalent amount of damage.
See, this would only phase/stop Harrison if they can see invisibility, as Harrison by this point has pretty easy access to Greater Invis, and can pop it on as what equates to a free action. Technically he can pop off two extracts for free (Improved (or monkey)Tumor Familiar with Extra Magic Item Slot [Hands] and Poisoner's Gloves), so getting sneak isn't an issue. I suppose by that point he could also pop off a MP II to come out as a 4 Armed Gargoyle (which is giving him 6 primary natural attacks instead of 4 primary and two secondary), but I'd rather have the build be more sustainable since that seems to be a priority here.
DPR Olympics does say I get a buff round, so I could use a set of P. Gloves on myself too, so my buffs are now at 4 in one round instead of just 1, which is a damn nice use of my action economy, so I can easily forego my mutagen unless I have some spare time earlier in the day (since it's lasting for 2 hours), giving me a nova of something stupid for pure DPR. At worst with Greater Invis I could pull this off with only lesser buffs 4 times a day (bare min for how many I would need to even create the extracts), giving me 4 primary natural attacks with sneak and two secondaries as a Hail Mary to finish off an opponent at base damage +6d6 each.
EDIT: Without magic items though, his DPR does become a lot less vicious, as the Poisoner's Gloves (A BEAUTIFUL SELF BUFFING ITEM) are largely a centerpiece of abusing the action economy.
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If you're not doing a straight-up imitation of DPR olympics, you might want to set the rules up to be damage over a 3 round period or something similar. That way, you can spend a round buffing if you need that in order to be effective but it still captures the advantage of builds like Teddy who are ready to splatter skulls as soon as initiative is rolled.
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If you're not doing a straight-up imitation of DPR olympics, you might want to set the rules up to be damage over a 3 round period or something similar. That way, you can spend a round buffing if you need that in order to be effective but it still captures the advantage of builds like Teddy who are ready to splatter skulls as soon as initiative is rolled.
To prevent this from spiraling, I'm mostly just interested in Martials who require minimum prep and buffing. However, if anybody is interested, they can feel free to also do 3-round DPR where you can devote rounds to buffing.
Teddy's 3 round DPR is 263.
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So what's the attack look like in terms of attack bonuses and damages? Assuming one round of buffing and sneak attack?
Okay, so this is no magic items or non-mundane gear? And assume one round of buffing? Am I assuming an opponent who can see invis? Am I supposed to optimize for initiative? (I almost feel bad since pounce almost assures he's getting free sneak)
I guess that removes my need for a familiar, but looking over the Charge rules, I can charge someone from underground by burrowing (just looked it up to be sure), and with Greater Beastmorph Mutagen, I can pick up Pounce and Burrow 30. While underground I could down Echolocation to give me Blightsight so I can find the target and TREMORS the ignorance out of them.
Even if I don't build this, you're giving me a lot of great ideas to use on my party, and I thank you for that. I'll probably start working on this in a little bit though.
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I suppose we gotta have some rules:
Level 12, 2 traits, 20 point buy.
No magic items or non-mundane gear.
Assume a static target with AC 27/11/24 (averages for a CR 12 creature). It can't see invisibility and lacks all other powers. It's not going to do anything to you. You can start anywhere you like, adjacent to it or far away.
If you are relying on sneak attack please provide DPR for full sneak attack, no sneak attack, and the average of the two.
You have three rounds. At the start of the first round you have no buffs. You may spend rounds buffing, but that's likely wasted tim.
If you are expending resources, you've got to have enough resources to do this 3 round routine two times.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This doesn't exceed .95 (unless you autohit for whatever reason) and never goes below .05.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.
The number to beat here is 283 for Teddy Rosy.
AMY ALCHY is absolutely a martial. She fights with weapons as her primary means of contributing. If that's not a martial, I'm not sure what is.
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AMY ALCHY is absolutely a martial. She fights with weapons as her primary means of contributing. If that's not a martial, I'm not sure what is.
Hey Cheapy. In my mind, a Martial is a class that doesn't have access to spells (or extracts). That basically limits it to Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Ninja, Gunslinger, Cavalier and Samurai.
Out of curiosity though, do you have the 12th level DPR for Amy without magic items?
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AMY ALCHY is absolutely a martial. She fights with weapons as her primary means of contributing. If that's not a martial, I'm not sure what is.Hey Cheapy. In my mind, a Martial is a class that doesn't have access to spells (or extracts). That basically limits it to Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Ninja, Gunslinger, Cavalier and Samurai.
Out of curiosity though, do you have the 12th level DPR for Amy without magic items?
I do respect you BZ, but why the no magic items? A level 12 character without magic items is kind of unrealistic, and magic items are an assumed part of character development. I can understand no consumables, but no magic items seems rather odd. I suppose this Alch build comes down to interpretations on "holding a charge from an extract" for a familiar, since that is a centerpiece of this build. Can my Familiar drink an extract (infusion obviously) and hold the charge, only to pass it on to me, it's master, simply by being in contact with them? If so, I can still make the action economy bend over hard.
Argh, sorry for the excited response.
As should be excepted...this is just a case of everyone using a different definition of martial. Myself? I try to look past the class and how it's used instead. A fighter who takes all Skill focus feats and doesn't use a weapon isn't a martial. It's an expert.
In my mind, anyone who primarily fights with a weapon is a martial. That means clerics (who are meant to fight with weapons, as they don't have the spells that can be cast round after round and be effective), inquisitors, just about every 3/4ths BAB class, etc is a martial of some sort.
Monks and ninjas are non-spellcasting magical martials (due to the nature of their (Su) and (Sp) class abilities), and fighters, cavaliers, rogues, etc are non-spellcasting martials.
Barbarian is a bit in a limbo, since after the APG, they get a number of (Sp) or (Su) rage powers.
But this basic division looks more at the characters than the class themselves although in many cases the classes give the characters tools to fit into one of these slots.
For example, summoner isn't a martial (or is at best a half-martial) since while they are 3/4ths BAB, they don't have any class features to help them use that 3/4ths BAB. They can try to use their spells, but those don't scale well enough in the parts that matter to truly put them at a level of martial character, although they can fill in for that roll with a lot of focus.
...and nope, don't have the stats for her without magic items.
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@N. Jolly: These threads can spiral out of control really fast. If you know me, I like organization and parallel comparison, so I'm trying to keep it simple. I'm sure there are a lot of awesome builds out there that work due to magical items, and a lack of magical items isn't accurate for 12th level. However, if none of the test builds have magic items, we can keep it level and it won't be relevant (in theory).
Regarding the familiar - If you were GMing a game and a player asked if he could do that, what would you say?
@Cheapy: Yeah, I realize that may have been a bit restrictive, but I'm trying to keep it simple. The definition of Martial might very well be anybody who fights with a weapon, but I'm basically trying to keep spell casters as far away from this as possible. It's way too difficult to briefly explain and compare spell casters than non-spellcasters.
And if you have the time and desire, I would love to know Amy's DPR - I'm putting a choice few DPRs on the Guide to the Builds She's awesome, but I'm not sure I'm qualified to do the calculation myself.
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Well in that case, these two threads might interest you.
The first one is the optimized CRB only fighter, the second is the non-optimized CRB fighter. Well, my attempt to get as close as possible to "average" as I see it.
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AMY ALCHY is absolutely a martial. She fights with weapons as her primary means of contributing. If that's not a martial, I'm not sure what is.Hey Cheapy. In my mind, a Martial is a class that doesn't have access to spells (or extracts). That basically limits it to Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Ninja, Gunslinger, Cavalier and Samurai.
Out of curiosity though, do you have the 12th level DPR for Amy without magic items?
I am sorry sir, but I disagree, paladins and rangers are most certainly martial classes.
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I am sorry sir, but I disagree, paladins and rangers are most certainly martial classes.AMY ALCHY is absolutely a martial. She fights with weapons as her primary means of contributing. If that's not a martial, I'm not sure what is.Hey Cheapy. In my mind, a Martial is a class that doesn't have access to spells (or extracts). That basically limits it to Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, Ninja, Gunslinger, Cavalier and Samurai.
Out of curiosity though, do you have the 12th level DPR for Amy without magic items?
Sure, I'm not wedded to that definition. In general I want to stay away from casters for now, but hey, I'll take whatever as long as the DPR calculation is clean.
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Feats
1- Power attack, mounted combat, weapon focus Lance,
2- Ride by attack
3- Spirited charge
4- Furious Focus
5- weapon spec. Lance
6- Vital Strike
7- Iron will
8- devastating Strike
9- wheeling charge
10- Greater weapon focus
11- Improved vital strike
12- greater weapon spec.
Same stats as the original teddy with his two levels going into str one into WIS.
so, 1d8x3= 3d8+2d8= 5d8
str 22= +6, two handed weapon +12, power attack +16 (-4 +8x2 for two-handed fighter) for 28, +4 wep spec, +2 wep training +4 devastating strike . total of 38x3= 114
5d8+114 per charge, (not counting any pony attacks)
to hit is. 12+2+2(charge)+6+2(wep focuses) so 24.
the Issue here is that, the mount has a large possibility to die unless your GM allows you to purchase "leveled" warhorses and the like.
honestly I suck at math, and I am half asleep atm, I may attempt to work the DPR out, but someone else can go ahead if they wish.
is there a target CMD for characters who use trip to proc additional attacks?
Sure some things are immune, but it can be a decently reliable way to deal extra damage.
A natural weapon Dervish dancer Bard can do around 100 DPR at level 10 hadn't looked into level 12 however.
Here's a link to the discussion:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qagc?Dawnflower-Dervish-with-Natural-Attacks#1
I think pehaps a MoMS 4/unarmed figther with dragon style, dragon ferocity an TWF along with weapon spec, monks robe, brawling Armorand all that jazz may be in the race.
I have a level 8 version i will see if i get time to up him to 12 and will look at it again.
But some one with hero lap may be faster than me.
Edit: my son send it the post mod sentence.
Edit2: a rough math thing say he will have a bit over 100 DPR vs AC 27 at level 12 with snake style, stunning Fist and extra attacks from ki unnacountet for.
Edit: just noticed you dont mention magic items at all. Is this with out magic items?
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I think a Gunslinger would win. Here's a quick build, probably contains a few errors...
Double Happy the Goblin
Musket Master 5 / Trench Fighter 5 / Urban Barbarian 2
Str:16
Dex:28 (Raging)
Con:10
Int:7
Wis:8
Cha:5
Feats: PBS, Precise Shot,Deadly Aim,Weapon Focus,Weapon Special,Quick Draw,Improved Precise Shot,Rapid Shot,Rapid Reload (Double Barreled Musket), Goblin Gunslinger, Improved Critical (Double Barreled Musket)
Rage Power:Reckless Abandon
Attack: 20/20/20/20/15/15/10/10, d12+29, (19-20 x4)
Gear: 7 Masterwork Double Barreled Muskets, Paper Cartridges, Masterwork Backpack.
Fires both barrels of his musket at once, drops double barreled musket and quick draws another double barreled musket when a misfire occurs. The DPR maths is complicated, as you have to take into account misfires...
He goes through an average of 1.11 Muskets a round due to misfires.
I get a DPR of ~307, giving a 3 round DPR of ~921
(If my maths is correct)
Edit: Assuming Dex x 2 to damage is legal. Without Dex x 2 to damage
I get a DPR of ~229, giving a 3 round DPR of ~686
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@Phosphorus
I'm assuming you went Trench to double dex on shots, but I think it's been stated (although I'll have to find citation later) that you can't apply the same stat twice to damage. Although aside from that, it seems solid. Probably still blowing a lot of others out of the water.
Still just crazy what two barrels can do on a weapon, don't know what they were thinking letting them both get attack rolls.
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@Phosphorus
I'm assuming you went Trench to double dex on shots, but I think it's been stated (although I'll have to find citation later) that you can't apply the same stat twice to damage. Although aside from that, it seems solid. Probably still blowing a lot of others out of the water.
Still just crazy what two barrels can do on a weapon, don't know what they were thinking letting them both get attack rolls.
Yes, two barreled weapons are a bit broken.
I put an edit in my original post. I think double dex is illegal, but I would like to see a citation as I couldn't find one.
Same stats as the original teddy with his two levels going into str one into WIS.so, 1d8x3= 3d8+2d8= 5d8
str 22= +6, two handed weapon +12, power attack +16 (-4 +8x2 for two-handed fighter) ...
A small correction: The twohanded fighter doesn't get Greater PA until lvl 15, so that is only +12 from PA.
Now an attempt to tweak this build further:
Mounted Two-handed fighter 11 / Barbarian 1.
1- Power attack, mounted combat, weapon focus Lance,
2- Ride by attack
3- Spirited charge
4- Furious Focus
5- weapon spec. Lance
6- Vital Strike
7- Furious finish
8- devastating Strike
9- wheeling charge
10- Improved critical (lance)
11- Improved vital strike
Basically we get a bit more to-hit and damage from strength during rage, and a significant portion of damage when furious finishing, which we use in the last of the three rounds.
To-hit: 12+8(str)+1(WF)+1(mwk)+2(charge)+2(w.training)=+26
Damage (crittable): 3*(1d8+16(str)+2(WS)+2(w.train)+12(PA)+4(Dev.Strike)=3d8+36
Damage (non-crit): 2d8 (VS)
DPR round 1 and 2: 180.8
DPR round 3: 233.7
DPR total over 3 rounds: 595.
Can you Vital Strike on a charge though?You can on a mounted charge.
I can?
Please explain.
Can you Vital Strike on a charge though?You can on a mounted charge.I can?
Please explain.
I think the argument is that a mounted charge isn't a charge action per se.
So your mount can charge, and you can take any actions you want, but get the -2 AC penalty. So you could cast a spell, or use vital strike if you want.If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you get the +2 bonus to hit for charging.
Can you Vital Strike on a charge though?You can on a mounted charge.I can?
Please explain.I think the argument is that a mounted charge isn't a charge action per se.
So your mount can charge, and you can take any actions you want, but get the -2 AC penalty. So you could cast a spell, or use vital strike if you want.
If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you get the +2 bonus to hit for charging.
I think the rules for mountet combat is full of holes:)
And thanks for telling, Harald.
I don't think it's legal to use vital strike even on a mounted charge. But as you note Cap. Darling, the mounted combat are like Swiss cheese. Full of holes.
its legal, done it several times in PFS ;)
That doesn't really say much. It could be a lenient GM who doesn't know.
I'm honestly not sure, because being mounted does change some things, but the general rule is vital strike is it's own separate action from charging. I also understand that when you're mount charges you are not using your action to charge, but you are still limited to a single attack at the end of that charge. I'm not positively sure how they should interact.