Whirlwind attack "worth it"

[Crimson68]

Hi everyone,

I can see a number of ways to get this feat as a fourth level fighter.

From a tactical point of view I think this feat has a number of benefits.

Could someone please help me see if I am missing something, is it good or a bad choice....

[darkwarriorkarg]

I'd try to combine it with the disarm maneuver...

[Corodix]

How would whirlwind attack work if you take the Phalanx Soldier archetype. You'd be able to attack adjacent enemies with the shield and enemies at 10ft with the polearm. Whirlwind attack says:

Quote:

When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Do I assume correctly that you'd be able to attack all enemies that are adjacent to you and all that are 10ft away, since they are within reach of one of the two weapons in both cases?

Then you could combine that with combat maneuvers, trip everybody who is 10ft away with the polearm and do bull rushes with your shield against all adjacent enemies. I don't believe you'd take two weapon fighting penalties for that either, right?

[Ughbash]

Depending on build it can be worth it.

Currnetly have a 2 handed fighter using A Naginata and also Improved Uanrmed strike. For him it will definitey be worth it... especialy if he gets enlarged.

[cnetarian]

It's a choice, good or bad depending on how much it costs and how much use you have for it. Add the lunge feat, a reach weapon & enlarge spell for more utility. That said, it is useless against single opponents, opponents which are widely spread out & combats where you cannot stand still and take a full attack action - if that is what your fights are like then forget about it.

[aegrisomnia]

I'd say it's worth it, particularly at lower levels before you start getting iteratives. It's fairly situational, but it has its niche. You can always retrain it away later on.

Whether it makes more sense to get Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack or Cleave/Great Cleave instead is another question. Let's say you have a +4 from STR and a BAB of 4 as a 4th-level fighter. Let's say you're fighting three adjacent enemies, each of which has AC 16. You hit against this AC 65% of the time.

With whirlwind attack, you get nearly two hits, on average, in a round. With cleave & greater cleave, you get around 1+1/3 hits per round. As the chance to hit gets better, the advantage of whirlwind attack goes away. As enemies get harder to hit, whirlwind attack becomes much more effective, relatively speaking.

Of course, cleave can be used as a standard action, so it gives you a chance to hit twice after taking a move action. Both are situational, and have advantages and disadvantages. Both can be retrained later.

[Ravingdork]

I've used it to great effect with my character, Marcy who built up to it from 1st-level. He's a disarming tripping whirlwind dervish of doom!

[Zark]

No it is not worth it

[Ravingdork]

I respectfully disagree. It is situationally awesome. As others have said, you need to build towards it to really make it shine.

[DJEternalDarkness]

I always liked it for my spiked chain fighter I got to play for a bit.

[Wiggz]

Zark wrote:

No it is not worth it

Its incredibly worth it. Even just getting 2 or 3 attacks - at full BAB no less - at 4th when everyone else is still at least 2 levels away from getting their first iterative is absolutely huge.

I have a Weaponmaster Fighter who uses WWA along with Lunge and Dazing Assault to become the equivalent of a Dazing Fireball every round. Its the only pure Fighter build I've found worth playing.

[bfobar]

I think cleave and cleaving finish may get you close to whirlwind without the heavy feat tax.

Basically cleave two mooks, get a 3rd attack if one dies. For whirlwind to be better, you need 4 mooks to line up. Cleave may not always drop a foe, but cleaving finish also works every time you drop a foe.

If your party is light on crowd control, dazing assault whirlwinds may save party bacon.

[Wiggz]

bfobar wrote:

I think cleave and cleaving finish may get you close to whirlwind without the heavy feat tax.

Basically cleave two mooks, get a 3rd attack if one dies. For whirlwind to be better, you need 4 mooks to line up. Cleave may not always drop a foe, but cleaving finish also works every time you drop a foe.

But that's just it - you DON'T need them to line up. How often does that happen? All you need, presuming that you're using a reach weapon, is for them to be within 10 feet of you... 15' if you're lunging or the recipient of Enlarge Person and 20' if you've got both. And WWA works regardless where as Cleaving Finish requires you to hit several times AND kill one before it will go off.

As far as the 'heavy feat tax', Cleaving Finish requires 3 feats whereas WWA requires 5 feats - just 2 more... and those 5 offer a much better array of additional benefits.

I've always found Cleave and its related feats far too limiting and situational whereas WWA is always there when I need it.

[LoneKnave]

I prefer the Great Cleave+Dwarf racial cleave feats, as those don't need a full attack action to work.

[EWHM]

Whirlwind and Great Cleave (cleave is often worthwhile regardless) suffer from a synergy metagame problem. You see, they're balanced based on how powerful they are in a fully synergized build. To not be overpowered in a min-maxed build in other words.

What's a synergized build for whirlwind/great cleave?
Two handed reach weapon, habitual enlarge spell (or size large to begin with), lunge, and probably combat reflexes to boot.

What's a fully synergized build? All of the above, plus a party that focuses on doing AE damage as a matter of course (add optimized blasters, other street sweeper builds like yours, and maybe one archer damage hose build to pick off the stragglers after the AE smackdown is laid on.

To not be overpowered in the synergized or fully synergized cases, it makes it rather gimp for a lot of normal builds.

[MrSin]

bfobar wrote:

I think cleave and cleaving finish may get you close to whirlwind without the heavy feat tax.

Basically cleave two mooks, get a 3rd attack if one dies. For whirlwind to be better, you need 4 mooks to line up. Cleave may not always drop a foe, but cleaving finish also works every time you drop a foe.

On the other hand, cleave requires you to fight two foes who are adjacent to each other and within reach of you and it requires you to hit once before you can take the second attack, while whirlwind attack can be used to hit any foe within reach, even if they aren't adjacent.

Whirlwind has its ups and downs. The prerequisites are murder(4 feats that have nothing to do with the actual whirlwind), and its situtional. On the other hand, you can build around it!(like peple have said) and make sure that situation comes up a lot more often. Usually that's making sure you have as much reach as possible. Enlarge, threaten adjacent, etc.

[TorresGlitch]

A Rogue6, Oracle1 (Human) with:
Str 16+2 dex14 con12 Wis12 int14 cha7
The oracle can see through mists etc.

Unarmed Strike (HD1)
Combat Reflexes (1)
Swift trigger (HD3) (to trigger obscuring mist)
Craft wondrous items (HD3)
Dodge (5)
Mobility (5)
Spring attack (7)
Whirlwind attack(7)

This build would most defenately be effective vs hordes of enemies.
You lose the AC of being a fighter but earns the ability to craft and use traps quickly. You also lose aim but you earn damage (but less frequent) - nvm, your aim will be the same since you'll hit flatfooted and gain +2 as striking as if "hidden/invisible".
You'll be more acrobatic, have more skill ranks but less Hp. You also got an easy way of sneakattacking since your archtype of rogue allows you to sneak attack while charging (HD5) and simply moving (HD9).

This rogue isn't the bosskiller, it's the scout who clears the path for his team, alone.

Btw. This rogue have the trait which gives +2 to CL of a chosen class and obviously uses a reach weapon.

[Reynard_the_fox]

Whirlwind attack is WAY more powerful than Cleave (and the whole Cleave line). It's the difference between maybe getting an extra attack on two enemies right next to each other, and definitely getting an extra attack on everyone in potentially a 50ft diameter circle. VERY big difference.

Also, you'll have Spring Attack, which works very well with reach weapons to begin with. So it's not like you won't have anything to do on a standard attack. Combined with Mobility, you can easily get into the middle of a crowd of enemies to set up a HUGE whirlwind attack on the next turn! And if you multiclass out of Fighter into, say, Alchemist, and pick up Enlarge Person and then later on Fly... seems like fun. :3

[bfobar]

Well, I think another con against whirlwind is it works best when you're standing in the middle of a group of monsters.

Generally you don't want to be standing in the middle of a group of monsters, and if you don't have dazing assault and you're not killing them all, you're going to get beat on.

It's another case of looking at the action economy. If you remove 3/4 of the hp of 4 monsters, they are still fully functional and are now surrounding you. If you just walked up and mauled one and killed it, then thats one less action and you're on the outside edge of their group.

Dazing assault helps with this, but its on a fortitude save which is a good save for a lot of monsters. and you can't take it until level 11.

I think that's why whirlwind seems to only get recommended with enlarged fighters with reach weapons, a high AC, and lunge.

[Wiggz]

This is my Fighter who utilizes WWA as one of his key character abilities - but not the only one, obviously. He still gets all the iterative attacks a normal martial gets when attacking a single foe, can layer on a ton of status effects at higher levels and is a fair crit-fisher as well.

This is the original, 'pure' form of the character for Fighter enthusiasts. Some variations include using a Falchion as the primary weapon or spending a feat to gain proficiency in the Fauchard instead.

Human 20th level Weaponmaster (Bardiche)
Heart of the Wilderness

Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 15 (+2 racial mod, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA - 7

Traits:
Freed Slave (+1 Will saves)
Defender of the Society (+1 AC when wearing medium or heavy armor)

Feats & Class features:
1st - Dodge
1st - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
2nd - Mobility, Weapon Guard
3rd - Combat Expertise, Weapon Training +1
4th - Spring Attack (swap Cleave for Whirlwind Attack)
5th - Combat Reflexes, Reliable Strike 1/day
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Bardiche, Weapon Training +2
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche
9th - Improved Critical: Bardiche
10th - Critical Focus, Reliable Strike 2/day
11th - Dazing Assault, Weapon Training +3
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical, Deadly Critical 1/day
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Weapon Training +4, Reliable Strike 3/day
16th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche, Deadly Critical 2/day
17th - Stunning Critical, Critical Specialist
18th - Vital Strike
19th - Improved Vital Strike, Weapon Training +5, Deadly Critical 3/day, Unstoppable Strike, Armor Mastery
20th - Greater Vital Strike, Reliable Strike 4/day, Weapon Mastery: Bardiche

Skills: (4 ranks/level)
Climb - odd levels
Swim - even levels
Handle Animal - 1
Ride - 2-20
Perception - 1-20
Survival - 1-20

[revaar]

Another interesting weapon to use with Whirlwind is the whip. If enlarged, the whip will threaten 30', and there is no donut effect either. That's a lot of potential for targets, over 100 if my math serves me right, which probably won't be fully utilized often, but if it is, the look on your GM's face will be priceless.

Using whip mastery, you don't have to worry about the usual issues with whips and armor, and as a one handed weapon, you can two hand it to boost your str bonus and power attack.

Sadly, this will take two extra feats to pull off, three if you want to add in Power attack. So, we are looking at 7th level for a fighter. A lvl 7 fighter will likely have around a 25 str (16 base+2 racial +1 level +2 item +4 enlarge), meaning +11 damage from str and +6 from power attack, so +17 base damage, plus whatever bonuses you have from magic weapons and buffs. Sure, you are only adding 1d4 of weapon damage to it, but by that point weapon damage is only really gravy.

[Rerednaw]

To the OP.

Based on the Pathfinder modules I have played or run I'd say probably not.
Granted, maybe it's the ones I have played/ran. In those adventures combats where whirlwind attack would have come into play were the exception, not the rule.

In a campaign tailored around the player's strengths, certainly. Many, many encounters in a given day with mass combats filled with waves of medium sized humanoid minions, and so forth.

[Avatar-1]

There is something special about Whirlwind Attack.

It looks good, but in practise tends to be surprisingly not used much (unless you've got a very optimised build, some mentioned above).

But even without an optimised build, when the situation does come up, it's a pretty magical moment to get the chance to say "I use whirlwind attack" and everyone at the table realises you've landed in just the right circumstances to do a pretty impressive attack.

[Mudfoot]

It's the prereqs that are the problem.

Dodge is sorta OK, but you probably have a use for something else.

Mobility is weak, and only useful if you intend to go taking movement AoOs, which is not usually a good strategy. OK for rogues and monks, but not so much for fighters.

Spring Attack is OK if you don't intend to take a Full Attack, but fighters generally do. It's good for flanky rogues.

Whirlwind Attack itself is fine, especially when Enlarged. But its benefits drop as you gain levels, because you'll be getting 2 or more (+1 for haste) attacks anyway. And as enemies get bigger, the chance of being able to hit both decreases.

So IMHO it would be good for rogues, but rogues don't have enough feats to get it without sacrificing something important. Maybe for a human Str-based greatsword-wielding rogue/fighter/barbarian multiclass.

Otherwise it depends on the game style. If you're often up against gangs of mooks, great. Against solos or enemies who spread out or exploit terrain, not so great.

[ArmouredMonk13]

I think so

[LoneKnave]

Maybe if it later got an upgrade that made it a standard action.

And like, one where it is made into an attack action at 16 maybe. That's something I just kinda see a high level martial doing.

Also, it'd honestly make more sense if cleave and whirlwind would be in the same feat tree.

[Mathius]

Whoever said it it not great in published adventures is right but the encounter design in most published material leaves something to be desired. Many encounters are against a single target or a pair. Those encounters are never satisfying because they are often lock down in round 1 and ground into dust by round 3. I do not mind a combat only taking 3 rounds but I do like my enemies to a get a round or two of meaningful action.

With lots of mooks you get more chances to go before the party and it the party can not use delaying with out giving the bad guys a turn as easily. AoE spells are more fun. SoD do not mean as much. I find that several mooks, a buffer and a pair of heavy hitters makes a nasty but fun encounter. I am also fond of resist energy over protection from energy since the fireballs will still hurt but a made save often makes them trivial. Make sure that a buffed mook has a decent chance to hit and leave the party tank alone. If their chance to hit is low then have a hit do something interesting like stun or dispel.

[Thalin]

I built a polearm-master fighter / Inquisitor of Gozreh just to make Whirlwind attack "worth it"

Human Polearm-Style fighter 6 / Inquisitor of Gozreh 3
Str: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 7

Traits: Heirloom Weapon (Horsechopper) - +2 Trip
(Would have had Bred for War if it existed at the time, I believe I took +2 init)

Ftr 1) Combat Reflexes, Combat Experitse, Improved Trip
Ftr 2) Dodge
Ftr 3) Mobility
Ftr 4) (Switch Combat Reflexes for Spring Attack), Whirlwind Attack
Fighter 5) Combat Relexes (it's back!)
Fighter 6) Greater Trip
Inquisitor 1) Weapon Focus (Horsecopper), Growth Domain
Inquisitor 3) Weapon Specialization (Horsechopper), Tandem Trip

So 4 times per day (5 after headband) he could grow and hit everyone within a 25 foot reach with either an attack or a trip (and trips would cause a few AOOs). Any enemies adjacent to an ally he got two rolls on his trip (which, after magic items, was +27 I believe?)

He was a god at low-to-mid levels, but as he was approaching 9 tripable opponents become more rare (anything above large requires him to use one of his grow tactics, anything above huge is impossible). Then there are the serpent, ooze, elementals, incoporeals, and flyers. He was still good (solid AC, pretty good damage) even if he could not trip, but he was no longer the "combat ruler" that he was in the lowish range. Still, AE damage can be quite useful, and in 50-60% of the fights trip was still "online", so was a solid build.

But you really have to work on it to make it good. If I had it to do over again I would take Lore Warden instead (higher CMB bonus, free Combat Expertise, and you can trip short-range without using your weapon, so no need to have the "shorten" ability like I thought you needed from Polearm master). I may also have only splashed 1 level of Inquisitor (especially with Lore Warden having more benefits from staying through the higher levels).