Is it a melee hit? Because a Wizard can do more damage with his spells.
At level 7, my fireball (no metamagic) does 9d6+3, with a dc 20. So 57.
At level 7, my fireball (no metamagic) does 9d6+3, with a dc 20. So 57.
^That's not even optimized. You could put out 9d6+21. Wizards be crazy. 75 damage max.
I am not fully optimized and I am playing Second Darkness, so I have SR to deal with...
Are you getting the rest of the +21 from meta?
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At level 7, my fireball (no metamagic) does 9d6+3, with a dc 20. So 57.^That's not even optimized. You could put out 9d6+21. Wizards be crazy. 75 damage max.
All right, I will admit to being curious about a wizard doing 9d6+21 at level 7. That's plenty sufficient to make me interested. I've done a lot of work creating sorcerers that are extinction level events waiting to happen (even before metamagic is put in the equation) but as of yet have not been able to accomplish this to the same degree on a wizard.
I'm imagining the 9d6 is from casting fireball at two levels higher than you actually are per varisian tattoo and being a gnome with the pyromaniac trait. So then, what's doing the +21? I've got some theories but I wanna just read it straight out.
Magi can do better - below is 6 magus with 1 level crossblooded orc/draconic sorcerer
2d8 for 16 (enlarged with a bastard sword) + 5 (str) + 4 (power attack) + 8d6+16 for 64 (spell specialization intensified shocking grasp) + 2 (arcane strike) for a total of 91. Numbers could be tweaked higher if starting over 18 str or using the weapon two handed.
Well my 9d6 is from using Spell Specialization, meaning I am casting it as if I were level 9. The +3 is from Intensified Evocation.
Crossblooded Sorcerer 1 (Draconic [Blue Dragon] + Orc), Magus 6.
Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Shocking Grasp, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation, Gifted Adept: Shocking Grasp
One Attack with spell strike. 6 (Scimitar) + 80 (Shocking Grasp) = 86 max damage.
Didn't add stats to damage, also didn't tae extra feat from Human to get power attack.
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Full Orc fighter/ranger/paladin on a mount with spirited charge, weapon spec, and power attack against the favored enemy of an evil undead while Smiting 1D8+2 WS+6 PA +9 (1.5 STR) +2 FE +4 Smite =31 X 3 =93 and it ignored all DR. This also has very high chance to hit with a 7 BAB weapon focus, charge, favored enemy and smite (if positive charisma) giving a 12+ charisma bonus. That's about all I have right now, I'm sure there are others that hurt more but this is a strange character that can really hurt.
Or swap out fighter for paladin 6 ranger 1 to get
8+2+12+9+6 (37 X3 =117) (33.5 X3 =100 damage on average)
Well my 9d6 is from using Spell Specialization, meaning I am casting it as if I were level 9. The +3 is from Intensified Evocation.Ahhh spell specialization. I figured it was coming from varisian tattoo + pyromaniac gnome. Still leaves me curious as to the +21 mentioned by another poster above.
18 is from crossblooded sorcerer, 3 is from being an evoker wizard. spell specialization + gnome for three more caster levels (6 wizard levels + 3 extra).
At least I believe that's the case.
Full Orc fighter/ranger/paladin on a mount with spirited charge, weapon spec, and power attack against the favored enemy of an evil undead while Smiting 1D8+2 WS+6 PA +9 (1.5 STR) +2 FE +4 Smite =31 X 3 =93 and it ignored all DR. This also has very high chance to hit with a 7 BAB weapon focus, charge, favored enemy and smite (if positive charisma) giving a 12+ charisma bonus. That's about all I have right now, I'm sure there are others that hurt more but this is a strange character that can really hurt.
Or swap out fighter for paladin 6 ranger 1 to get
8+2+12+9+6 (37 X3 =117) (33.5 X3 =100 damage on average)
I think you're confused, he said no stats, so the exercise is pointless for martial classes to participate in.
Edit: I don't even know how one casts spells or qualifies for feats without items or stats.
Orc 5 Barbarian, 2 Rage Chemist
can get str 18 (+4), 4 str from orc (+2), +4 rage (+2), +6 mutagen (+3)
for +11 damage from Strpower attacking with a Scythe for +6 damage
2d4+17 x4 crit = 100 damage
and that's only with one feat.
OP mentioned no crits.
we all know you can do point buy to get max a stat for damage, so they can still compete, but in reality, would you dump a stat to get something to +5?Full Orc fighter/ranger/paladin on a mount with spirited charge, weapon spec, and power attack against the favored enemy of an evil undead while Smiting 1D8+2 WS+6 PA +9 (1.5 STR) +2 FE +4 Smite =31 X 3 =93 and it ignored all DR. This also has very high chance to hit with a 7 BAB weapon focus, charge, favored enemy and smite (if positive charisma) giving a 12+ charisma bonus. That's about all I have right now, I'm sure there are others that hurt more but this is a strange character that can really hurt.
Or swap out fighter for paladin 6 ranger 1 to get
8+2+12+9+6 (37 X3 =117) (33.5 X3 =100 damage on average)I think you're confused, he said no stats, so the exercise is pointless for martial classes to participate in.
Edit: I don't even know how one casts spells or qualifies for feats without items or stats.
I'm sorry, but the exercise makes no sense without incorporating stats and isn't fair without buffs and items.
20d6, for a maximum of 120 damage. Only requires falling damage.
Of course, I probably would have to grab them and jump... but it would still be one hit!
Orc Inquisitor 3/Mad dog barbarian 4 with wolverine animal companion, amplified rage, power-attack, vital strike and the growth subdomain. This build has 1 feat and 1 ragepower left. I hope I got the math right.
Strength 22 +4 for rage, +4 for amplified rage +2 enlarge person = strength 32 => strength bonus 11
Greatsword 2d6, enlarged 3d6, vital strike 6d6
Damage 6d6 + 16 (strength) + 6 Powerattack +2 judgement = 60
p.s. The wolverine AC can rage so counts for activating amplified rage. And Solo tactics means the wolverine doesn't need the teamwork feat.
Orc Inquisitor 3/Mad dog barbarian 4 with wolverine animal companion, amplified rage, power-attack, vital strike and the growth subdomain. This build has 1 feat and 1 ragepower left. I hope I got the math right.
Lesser elemental rage will get you an extra 6 damage. Powerful Blow is 2 extra.
Lesser elemental rage will get you an extra 6 damage. Powerful Blow is 2 extra.Orc Inquisitor 3/Mad dog barbarian 4 with wolverine animal companion, amplified rage, power-attack, vital strike and the growth subdomain. This build has 1 feat and 1 ragepower left. I hope I got the math right.
Right. So assuming lesser elemental rage he'd be at 66 damage.
Admixture Wizard 7
Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Fireball, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation, Gifted Adept: Fireball, Magical Lineage: Fireball, Bloatmage Initiate: Evocation, Intensify Spell, Empower Spell
15d6+4 Empowered Fireball as a 4th level spell. 94 damage.
Kaboom!
Rogues rule!
Rogue (Skulking Slayer, Scout) 5 / Assassin 1 / Sleepless Detective 1. For at total of 5d6 sneak attack, d8s on a charge with two handed weapon.
Sap adept, and sap master feats, and bleeding attack rogue talent.
10d8+20 (Sneak attack) + 2d6 (Huge Sap) + 6 (power attack) = 118 + 10 bleed.
Rogues rule!
Rogue (Skulking Slayer, Scout) 5 / Assassin 1 / Sleepless Detective 1. For at total of 5d6 sneak attack, d8s on a charge with two handed weapon.
Sap adept, and sap master feats, and bleeding attack rogue talent.
10d8+20 (Sneak attack) + 2d6 (Huge Sap) + 6 (power attack) = 118 + 10 bleed.
That attack bonus is looking rather.... terrible. 3+Strength? Oof.
Orc/Draconic(red) Sorcerer;
Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Fireball, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation, Empower Spell
Magical Lineage: Fireball, Wayang Spellhunter: Fireball
Empowered Fireball as a 3rd level spell, 15d6+30. 120 damage
I believe it's been said somewhere that Magical Lineage and Wayang doesn't stack.
EDIT: Scratch that, it seems legit.
1 level dip for that + Wizard gets 4 more damage.
Orc/Draconic(Red) Sorc 1/Admixture Wizard 6
Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Fireball, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation, Empower Spell, Bloatmage
Magical Lineage: Fireball, Wayang Spellhunter: Fireball
Empowered Fireball, 15d6+34. 124 damage.
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I believe it's been said somewhere that Magical Lineage and Wayang doesn't stack.
Two different types of traits with two different actual effects:
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
Choose: A spell of 3rd level or below.
Benefit: When you use the chosen spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
While in the end they have the same basic benefit, how they get there is not the same. And while I agree it seems cheesy as hell, it certainly hasn't been stated as being illegal in any official capacity.
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1 level dip for that + Wizard gets 4 more damage.
Orc/Draconic(Red) Sorc 1/Admixture Wizard 6
Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Fireball, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation, Empower Spell, BloatmageMagical Lineage: Fireball, Wayang Spellhunter: Fireball
Empowered Fireball, 15d6+34. 124 damage.
Shouldn't that be 15d6+30+3?
Whenever you cast an evocation spell that deals hit point damage, add 1/2 your wizard level to the damage (minimum +1). This bonus only applies once to a spell, not once per missile or ray, and cannot be split between multiple missiles or rays. This bonus damage is not increased by Empower Spell or similar effects.
Admixture Wizard 7
Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Fireball, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation, Gifted Adept: Fireball, Magical Lineage: Fireball, Bloatmage Initiate: Evocation, Intensify Spell, Empower Spell15d6+4 Empowered Fireball as a 4th level spell. 94 damage.
Kaboom!
You're on the right track, but a little off.
Wizard 6 (admixture spec)/ Sorc 1 (x-blood orc/draconic)
Trait: Magical Lineage: FB
Trait: Wayang Spellhunter: FB
Feat: Spell focus Evoc
Feat: Spell specialization FB
Feat: Varisian tattoo evoc
Feat: Bloatmage initiate evoc
Feat: Empower spell
Fireball Caster level 10 (6 base +2+1+1)for 10d6, add 20, add 3. Then empower it for 3rd lvl slot (3+2-1-1).
Total 15d6+33 or; Max 123.
Edit: I got ninja'd >.> hehe
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Half-assed martial attempt:
With (relatively tame) 18 strength, nonmagical weaponry:
Beast Rider (Order of the Sword) Cavalier, using lance while mounted on Spinosaurus.
Feats Used: Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge.
3d8 + 18 (Power Attack) + 18 (Strength) + 21 (Challenge) or max 81 Damage.
All without sacrificing an entire build to cast one spell.
3d8 + 27 (Power Attack) + 18 (Strength) + 24 (Challenge) + 24(Mounted Mastery)
Max damage: 117.
Level 8 is pretty good for martials.
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All without sacrificing an entire build to cast one spell.
No, you just sacrifice an entire build to do one particular attack.
That sorcerer or wizard can still do a hell of a lot of other things, they are just very good with a particular spell, while your cavalier is very good at charging someone on his mount.
If you are going to take a jab, at least be genuine. Any build that is optimized will be specialized so that they are sacrificing a certain amount of utility to excel in a focused area.
That attack bonus is looking rather.... terrible. 3+Strength? Oof.Rogues rule!
Rogue (Skulking Slayer, Scout) 5 / Assassin 1 / Sleepless Detective 1. For at total of 5d6 sneak attack, d8s on a charge with two handed weapon.
Sap adept, and sap master feats, and bleeding attack rogue talent.
10d8+20 (Sneak attack) + 2d6 (Huge Sap) + 6 (power attack) = 118 + 10 bleed.
Actually that would be: 3 (BAB) - 4 (huge weapon) + 2 (charge) + str = +1 + strength.
And yup, that is terrible, but that doesn't matter in this discussion, where we ignore most game elements, apart from obscure maximized damage dice and bonusses (that isn't str).
So if we accept the terms, the rogue seem to be a winner!
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All without sacrificing an entire build to cast one spell.
No, you just sacrifice an entire build to do one particular attack.
That sorcerer or wizard can still do a hell of a lot of other things, they are just very good with a particular spell, while your cavalier is very good at charging someone on his mount.
If you are going to take a jab, at least be genuine. Any build that is optimized will be specialized so that they are sacrificing a certain amount of utility to excel in a focused area.
Well, when the charge isn't available (for whatever reason), the Cavalier is making full-attacks while his mount makes full-attacks. It might not have the damage spike that the triple-damage charge does, but Power Attack still works, Challenge still works, and the feat tax at least has some value (negating hits on your mount). When the wizard is casting something other than evocation, the following section of, say, Remy Blaster's example above, has no value:
Trait: Magical Lineage: FB
Trait: Wayang Spellhunter: FB
Feat: Spell focus Evoc
Feat: Spell specialization FB
Feat: Varisian tattoo evoc
Feat: Bloatmage initiate evoc
Also, "Reflex Half"?
So if we accept the terms, the rogue seem to be a winner!
I think the wizard is. The bleed doesn't happen until the target's turn. So only 118 for the rogue.
If we wanted to count multiple hits over durations, then all you need is a bunch of wood and a tinder twig, and some rope. Tie em up, light it, and welcome to infinity damage over time.
Or, if you want an actual 'attack', then the spell Burning Gaze does nicely, failed save and they catch on fire, failed save every round for 1d6, no duration... just keeps going until they save.
Also, "Reflex Half"?
Also, hit AC or do nothing. Stop trying to make this anything other than a max damage comparison. You're being needlessly confrontational about stuff that is irrelevant to this thread’s premise.
Oh! I got a slightly better one.
Gnome w/ Pyromaniac alt racial
Wizard 6 (admixture spec)/ Sorc 1 (x-blood orc/draconic)
Trait: Magical Lineage: Scorching Ray
Trait: Wayang Spellhunter: Scorching Ray
Feat: Spell focus Evoc
Feat: Spell specialization Scorching Ray
Feat: Varisian tattoo evoc
Feat: Bloatmage initiate evoc
Feat: Empower spell
Scorching Ray Caster level 11 (6 base +2+1+1+1)for 12d6(3 rays 4d6 ea), add 24(8 to ea ray), add 3. Then empower it for 2nd lvl slot (2+2-1-1).
Total 18d6+39 or; Max 147. Avg 102.
1.5(3(4d6+8))+3
I've had 2 mobs make their save (and they were Drow) against my fireball. At 7th level my DC is 20 on reflex. Which many mobs are attempting with no modifier, or a very small one.
So, they may get half, but I've seen a martial do a ton of damage only to miss the AC...
I had a Human Ranger Guide/Red Mantis Assasin 6/1 with a 15 pt buy.
Str 18 (+2 human, +1 level 4)
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 8
wis 12
Chr 13
Feats: (Exotic Weapon saw tooth sabre, Weapon focuse Saw tooth saber, Endurance, Two weapon fighting, Double Slice, Alertness, Improved Two Weapon fighting, Weapon Specialization Saw Tooth Saber, Percise Strike team work feat.
Attack when flanking: +14/+14/+9/+9 4D6 + 8 with lead blades and sneak attack against a Ranger Focused Enemy.
If all the attacks hit that is 16D6(avg 56) + 40 for 96 damage on average.