| Melvin the Mediocre |
Are there rules for locating a wizard who will let you copy a spell from his book? Like if a wizard wants to learn fireball and is in a large city, is it just assumed he can find a wizard that will let him copy it, or is there a roll involved?
How about a more unusual spell like blood money?
If there is no rule, does anybody feel they have a good system? We are trying to work something out for a prestige class wizard in our game who has no spells for their highest level slots, and very few for lower levels.
| Sarcasmancer |
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook."
So the normal cost of writing a new spell x1.5.
For practical purposes you would think wizards would swap spells back and forth like baseball cards, but evidently not.
| Xanzal |
I generally find it easier to buy a scroll and scribe it, rather than hunt down another wizard. I've always been under the impression that while wizards don't mind selling off scrolls, they're disturbingly protective of their spellbooks. Which seems silly, when it comes down to it. Perhaps it's a matter of no one wanting to expose their awful penmanship?
| Greylurker |
I'd say that is pretty much a DM's call. Kind of depends on how magic is treated in the setting.
In some settings you get Wizard colleges where you can easily get instructions in new spells. In other settings wizards jealously guard their spells from rivals and are like as not to kill you for fear that you are going to steal their secrets.
| Liam Warner |
I'd say that is pretty much a DM's call. Kind of depends on how magic is treated in the setting.
In some settings you get Wizard colleges where you can easily get instructions in new spells. In other settings wizards jealously guard their spells from rivals and are like as not to kill you for fear that you are going to steal their secrets.
This if its more medieval you teach your apprentice some of what you know and protect everything from strangers because here quite literally knowledge is power. If its more modern or some major event you would have more luck but even then they're nit going to let you get their strongest spells unless they really owe you a favour or want something you have.
Personally I tend to treat Golarion as beings in a transitional stage.so some of the more advanced lands are starting ti share knowledge.
This results in lower level spells being available but higher ones might not be essentially go off the following values.
Smaller than a town.
1st level 80% chance.
2nd level 20% chance.
3rd level 5% chance.
Generally costs 2 times spell price or 2 spells of equal level or 1 spell of greater level.
Town or city.
1st level 100% chance.
2nd level 40% chance.
3rd level 15% chance.
4th level 1% chance.
Metropolis
1st level 100% chance.
2nd level 100% chance.
3rd level 50% chance.
4th level 20% chance.
5th level 5% chance.
6th or higher maybe as part of a quest or if you have a rare equivilent they really want but 1st and 2nd will trade 1 for 1.
| leo1925 |
Well finding out what the highest level spellcaster in a city is quite easy, in the city's stats you can see the highest level spell available. Now finding out if it's arcane or divine or both is another issue and you have to dig deeper for that.
For example Magnimar has 8th level spell as the highest level spell available in the city but if you search more you find out that while there is a 15th level wizard in Magnimar, the highest level cleric is only 13. So in Magnimar you have 8th level arcane spells but only 7th level divine spells.
Now keep in mind that you don't have to find a live wizard in order to copy from his spellbook, you can copy spells from a dead wizard's spellbook. That means that magic academies, guilds, noble families, churches etc. probably have a large collection of spellbooks and they might charge you a lot of money (as shown by the table) in order to look at them and copy them.
Keep in mind that some spells (evil spells mostly) are usually not allowed to be copied.
Now to answer your actual question, no unfortunately there isn't any system (that i am aware of) that helps you figure out an exact number (or even a rough number) on the number and/or highest level of spells that you can see and/or swap copy.
1)PC Wizard tells me he wants to fill his spellbook(s) with new spells from other wizards' and magi's spellbooks.
2)I figure out what's the highest level of spell he can copy (given what i know about the city like i wrote above) and i tell the player the maximum spell level.
3)Now comes the hard part, i try to figure out how many spells he can swap*, i look at the spellbook of the PC wizard and i try to come up with a number (or a die roll and a number).
4)I tell the player how many spell levels he can swap in any way he wishes**, for the rest of the spells he wants he has to pay the "fee".
5)I check the spells that the player ended up copying in order to make sure that he didn't take a spell that he shouldn't be able to copy (for example evil spells).
Keep in mind that all of the above require many hours if not days of search, talking, bargaining and in sort "working", and that doesn't even take into account the numerous hours needed for the actual scribing of spells.
*allow another wizard to see spells from his spellbook and in turn see from said wizard's spellbook, so that he doesn't have to pay the "see the spellbook fee"
**for example i tell him that he can swap 10 spell level, how he spends that number is his own issue, he can swap for 10 1st level spells, he can swap for 2 5th level spells or any other combination (subject to the limit of the highest level spell he can copy from the city)
| Peter Stewart |
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook."
So the normal cost of writing a new spell x1.5.
For practical purposes you would think wizards would swap spells back and forth like baseball cards, but evidently not.
Depends on the GM and setting.
If you look at most settings in the past you find that hording of magical knowledge was far more common than sharing spells for a paltry fee - this is something that extends across at least the first thirty years of the hobby. Both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were both famous for the stinginess of wizards with spell lore. Greyhawk wizards tended to only pass down spells to close friends or apprentices, while Forgotten Realms has entire plots centered around gaining access to powerful spells from wizards - or dying in the attempt. Even incredibly powerful archmagi specifically tasked by the goddess of magic were protective of their knowledge and reluctant to share it with strangers and those who had not proven themselves worthy of it.
Even if you don't tie in a specific setting there are plenty of practical reasons why a wizard (especially a more powerful one) would be discriminatory in his sale of spell knowledge. Many higher level spells are incredibly destructive, and in the wrong hands could wreck tremendous harm (even if that isn't the intent). All it takes is one idiot wizard dropping a fireball in a tavern brawl to sour a population to wizardry for a long time.
Beyond that, especially when it comes to sharing spellbooks instead of scrolls, you are basically trusting another individual with access to your most prized possession, source of your power, and likely the result of a lifetime of work and anchievement. The idea that something like that is shared for a minor fee has always been laughable to me.
This whole idea that you can buy spells with a degree of certainty for a specific price is a relatively new idea and (I think) mostly tied to a move away from setting specificity that came with 3x.
As a rule the best experience I've had with the entire process involved relatively easy access to lower level spells (3rd level and under) and increasingly hard to find high level spells that often require you seek out a specific individual and persuade them to share their lifetime worth of work. It meant that at low levels we could jump right from adventure to adventure pretty quickly without getting bogged down, while at higher levels it encouraged the fostering of relationships with other powerful spellcasters and often generated plots simply as a result of trying to get in their favor or as a result of proximity to them. That this also tends to prevent the potentially problematic 'wizard picks exactly what spells he feels are most optimal' idea makes it particularly appealing to me.
I generally find it easier to buy a scroll and scribe it, rather than hunt down another wizard. I've always been under the impression that while wizards don't mind selling off scrolls, they're disturbingly protective of their spellbooks. Which seems silly, when it comes down to it. Perhaps it's a matter of no one wanting to expose their awful penmanship?
What would you rather sell to a stranger: a scroll at a major profit it took you a few hours to scribe or access to your very fragile and most prized possession that you are potentially powerless without?
TL:DR - Ask your GM. It's going to vary by game and setting. There is no hard and fast rule. Some GMs hand wave it, others do not.
| Sarcasmancer |
Depends on the GM and setting.
Everything depends on the GM and setting.
"In my world, there are no wizards."
"In my world, there are no spellbooks."
"In my world, there is no currency."
"I run my game as an erotically charged sexventure."
| Pandora's |
Hopefully your GM isn't draconian about it. The system stated here where you had to trade for all 6th level and higher spells makes wizards unplayable. At that point, the sorcerer knows more spells, casts more spells, and has more flexibility. Divine casters who don't have to care about a spellbook also operate at full power. This is why I make it easy for most spells most of the time.
| Vivianne Laflamme |
In a large city, you should be able to find someone willing to let you copy most lower level spells. Higher level spells might be a bit more difficult, depending on the size of the city. It wouldn't be unreasonable for your GM to call for a diplomacy check (the gather information use) for you to find whom to talk to. But someone else in the party can be the one to make the check.
Personally, I usually just allow the PC to copy the spell if she's in a place with high enough level wizards. Knowledge is power and all that, but knowledge of fireball is already widespread. If I'm a wizard and someone comes to me wanting to pay to copy fireball, there's no benefit to saying no. That person will just go to the other wizard down the road and I won't get the spell-copying fee or the good will of the other wizard. 45 gp and cordial relations with other high level wizards are always good things. I do sometimes require the diplomacy check, if the circumstances warrant it. From a metagame perspective, throwing hurdles at the wizard learning new spells just slows down the game. Besides, clerics and druids don't have to go through ridiculous hoops to get their spells.
That said, remember that as a wizard you have spells to help you solve your problems, even if those problems are needing more spells in your spellbook. No one in the local city willing to share fireball with you? Teleport somewhere else.
| Sarcasmancer |
| Liam Warner |
@Liam Warner
Are you getting those numbers from somewhere in specific are they your own? If it's the latter what is your reasoning behind them? Because they seem way too low and not in accordance with what i know about Golarion (or rather the inner sea region).
They're my own and I admit my knowledge of the pathfinder world is still fairly sketchy however I should point out those values were for finding a specific spell e.g. "Does this village have someone who can teach me fly" and not the chance for finding someone who can cast A 3rd level spell (which as you said is determined by maximum caster level although I didn't realize there were a lot of places with people capable of casting 7-9th level spells may need to revise my values). My wording on 6th level ones in a metropolis was bad as I was rushing to catch a movie, my reasoning is as follows . . .
Cantrips
You start the game with all of them so every wizard everywhere in the world has all the cantrips everyone knows.
1st
Since everyone know's all the cantrips and starts with several first level spells it seems to me that those would be fairly common as well. Hence you can find them everywhere (smallest throps may have a scroll left by an adventure or a witch looking after the births/deaths). Hence the 80% chance you can find any given spell wherever you are and in a town you can pretty much find any first level spell (I suppose you could add something about commmon spells from the core book having a higher chance than exotic spells from suppliments). Of course getting them to be handed over is another matter.
2nd
These are where the spells start to reflect effort and training above and beyond what you can achieve in an apprentice ship i.e. need to be 3rd level to cast them and you don't start out with any. So they're a bit more guarded and protected but they're still fairly low level and there's a lot of them out there + 3rd level isn't unresonable for an adventuring class to be. In small hamlest, thorps, villages you have a 1 in 5 chance of finding any given one, in towns and cities a bit less than half and in a metropolis someone somewhere has that spell you want.
3rd
This is the upper peak of common power (I treat the spell levels as low tier cantrip - 3rd, mid tier 4-6 and high tier 7-9. Low tier is the province of general community, hedge wizards, low level adventurers etc. Mid tier is highly accomplished magic users and the normative range where adventurers generally decide enoughs enough and reitre. High tier is the province of a few unique individuals usually the kings adviser or the like . . . this also applies to non magic classes e.g you'll find plenty of people level 1-6 the elites will be 7-12 and a few rare beings usually legendary ones will be 13-20+).
You still have a small chance of finding any given spell in a small vilalge etc (5%) but generally spells of this level and higher in these small communities are tied into stories i.e. GM decides what's there.
On the other hand as you move into larger towns and cities you get a better chance of being able to find someone who has that particular spell you want to 1 in 10 for towns and cities and 50/50 in a metropolis. Again the GM can decide there are specific spells available here or that while the spell you want is known no ones willing to share unless you were to say clean out that goblin nest.
4th
Here we're into the elite of a community who are either not likely to be running a small village tavern or at least not running said tavern while boasting about their magical abilities. That is it may be present but any spells of this level or higher in a small place are GM choice. There's a small chance you can buy the specific one you want in towns and cities and a 1 in 5 chance someone will be selling it in metropolis's.
5th
this is pretty much midrange from common hedge wizardry to world shaking spells and its at the point where people are less willing to advertize just what they know. That is in a metropolis you can probably pick up the information that someones willing to sell the spell you want (5%) but if someone does know it in a smaller area they're aren't going to let the information get out to potential enemies.
6th
This is the pinacle of power for about 90% of the worlds population (note that still leaves a lot of people who are stronger) and they are going to take care to hide that knowledge as if you know what they can cast you can develop a counter. Again in a metropolis you might hear the wizard in the noble quarter knows what you want but he'll make you jump through hoops before he parts with it.
7+
Very few have access to these and whereever you are I'd say they're availability for purchase is GM discretion and will probably require something other than money to get them to part with them.
Of course these values assume a normative society if your in an area with an accademy of magic you've managed to join there will be a higher availability of spells increasing your chances of getting the specific one you want. Similarly in certain circumstances e.g. Wrath of the Righteous where crusaders from all over the world are banding together for a final battle and there are (A) more spellcasters and (B) more open trading/selling of spells to increase everyones odds of success. On the flip side of the coin from what I know of Ustalav I'd say the odds of finding a specific spell are lower because magic users are ill trusted and would be more likely to horde what knowledge they have.
| Melvin the Mediocre |
If i remember right wizards can even learn spells from blood....
I've been wondering about that spell. If you whack an evil cleric, cast the spell, and sip his blood, can you convert his divine spell into an arcane one? Going from memory, there is nothing in the spell description that says you can not.