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If a character is dual wielding, may he use a blade boot to gain an additional attack?
Argument 1) Yes. The rules do not require feats to wield weapons. The feats make it better. Therefore, one can use a boot blade to gain an extra attack in combat.
Argument 2) No. Pathfinder assumes two "hands". You cannot wield a two handed weapon and armor spikes, for instance. Therefore both your hands are taken by the two weapon fighting and you would need a third "hand" to wield the boot blade.
Can someone make this clear for me?
The Boot blade is used as an Offhand weapon. It does not grant any additional attacks on its own.
So a Level 1 Fighter using two weapon fighting gets 1 iterative and 1 offhand attack, If he happens to be dual wielding and have a boot blade he can make a primary attack with the weapon in his main hand and than 1 offhand attack either with the weapon in is offhand, or the boot blade, but not both.
If this same fighter leveled up to level 6 and took the feat Improved Two-Weapon fighting he could take an additional offhand attack in a turn, and this one could be interchanged with the boot blade or the weapon in his actual offhand
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"Threatening", and "Fighting with more than one weapon", are different things.
If you have a longsword in one hand, a spiked shield in the other, a boulder helmet on your head, and a boot blade on your... boot... and your enemy provokes an Attack of Opportunity, you may attack with any one of them.
When it comes back to your turn, assuming your BAB is less than +6, you may only attack with two.
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"Threatening", and "Fighting with more than one weapon", are different things.
If you have a longsword in one hand, a spiked shield in the other, a boulder helmet on your head, and a boot blade on your... boot... and your enemy provokes an Attack of Opportunity, you may attack with any one of them.
I'm aware :) just a quick derail to ask a question.
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Did I answer it sufficiently?
Yes. This is part of a bigger question I have about using shields you've equipped after attacking with the corresponding hand. Like, people love the idea of a quickdraw shield, but what's the value of a quickdraw shield if you've already attacked with the hand you're using for the shield? But this is neither here nor there.
Yes you would be threatening with all three weapons, and no boot blade does not give you an extra attack.
Boot Blade says: Benefit: You can use a blade boot as an off-hand weapon
You can only ever make 1 offhand attack with two weapon fighting unless a feat gives you more. Even if you have more actual hands (multiple limbs) or gain offhand attacks in other ways (boot blade), these would not provide additional attacks in a turn with Two-Weapon fighting, just more options for which weapon you want to use for your off-hand attack
You gain AN additional attack...adding weapons (not counting natural) does not add to your attacks...to gain additional off hand attacks requires (for a normal character) the Improved and Greater two weapon fighting feats
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There was a 1000+ thread about this just within the last few months. I'll assume you weren't around for it.
There is an unwritten rule in Pathfinder that humanoids have two "hands" worth of attacks: a "primary" and an "off-hand".
(let's not touch natural attacks, that's another discussion)
You can attack with two one-handed weapons, or one two-handed weapon, because each of those attack sequences utilizes up to two "hands". This can be extrapolated to other body parts, but the number remains restricted to two.
I am not sure what to quote you. I can't find that thread at the moment. I could say "trust me", but your persistence is telling me that wouldn't be good enough for you.
But let's not turn this into another 1000+ thread. The idea is not hard to comprehend.
It is an extension of this FAQ:
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
You only have two "hands" worth of attacks that a character can make with manufactured weapons. If you use two weapon fighting, you cannot use any sort of third manufactured weapon. Whether it is boot knife, armor spikes, or gauntlet.
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Perhaps it was this 388 post thread I'm thinking of.
Or any of the other times there's a discussion on what happens when you grow extra arms.
If you search, you'll find more.
Here it is in it's 1500 post glory.
Consider this though before you go through the 5 hours it will take you to read it.
When two weapon fighting how many attacks can a "normal" character make? Two. Two Weapon Fighting Feat only reduces penalties, nothing more. The other feats in the chain just give you iterative attacks with your off hand. If you are two weapon fighting with a pair of kukris what hands are you using? You are using your main hand and your off hand to wield them. How many hands do you have left? None. How many non-natural attacks can you make without some sort of special ability? None. Because you don't have any more "hands" worth of action you can take during the round.
You could use a kukri and a boot blade, but not both kukris and the boot blade in the same round.
The rules tell you how many attacks you get based on BAB. The rules never say every weapon you threaten with grants an additional attack.
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How about the Two-weapon fighting guidelines:
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Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
There are no guidelines for wielding a third weapon in a off-hand. That would be beyond the scope of the rules. If you want to extrapolate and make up your own rules, you would be in the realm of house rule.
Also, it is called Two-Weapon Fighting...
Ok a great sword and a boot knife, just two weapons, can you do this in a full attack with twf. Would you get strength and a half with the great sword?
So can you use a one-handed weapon, a shield (just for AC) and a boot knife (as your second weapon).
Just like a two-handed weapon and boot knife I would think not.
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SKR called out the Greatsword working with the Boot Blade, Barbazu Beard, and Sea Knife.
Armor Spikes got shafted, but the others work fine.
Technically, the Greatsword and Armor Spikes work RAW.
I would mention the rules that prohibit the combo, but I was literally banned, and told not to bring them up again.
PM me if you want to know.
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BBT, please stop it. Two-handed weapons and Armor spikes do not work because the FAQ specifically says they don't. God, your name is so apt.
As far as two-handed weapons and other 'off-hand' weapons, Paizo clarified it well enough in the threads that came out when that Two-handed weapon armor spikes fiasco hit to forums. You cannot use a two-handed weapon in conjunction with two-weapon fighting.
Using an 'off-hand' attack would disallow the use of the 'off-hand' for the two-handed sword, regardless of whether the 'off-hand' was indeed a hand. This was one of the decisions they made where game balance overrode common sense logic.
I... err... wait... WHAT?
Son, come over here and we'll have a little chat about Pathfinder's "unwritten rules"...
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BBT, please stop it. Two-handed weapons and Armor spikes do not work because the FAQ specifically says they don't. God, your name is so apt.
As far as two-handed weapons and other 'off-hand' weapons, Paizo clarified it well enough in the threads that came out when that Two-handed weapon armor spikes fiasco hit to forums. You cannot use a two-handed weapon in conjunction with two-weapon fighting.
Using an 'off-hand' attack would disallow the use of the 'off-hand' for the two-handed sword, regardless of whether the 'off-hand' was indeed a hand. This was one of the decisions they made where game balance overrode common sense logic.
I do not disagree with your first statement. The FAQ disallows that specific combo. This is the only RAW that supports that, but is apt enough.
There is no current ruling completely disallowing two-handed weapons from two weapon fighting.
There was direct Developer comment noting certain combinations involving two-handed weapons and two weapon fighting.
The Barbazu Beard weapon even specifically mentions it's ability to be used with two handed weapons.
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Also, the Sea Knife.
Wow. I never knew of that weapon before your post.
My knowledge and understanding of the rules just imploded.
BBT has that effect Nefreet...it's why I love his rants
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Also, the Sea Knife.Wow. I never knew of that weapon before your post.
My knowledge and understanding of the rules just imploded.
Swimming ... with a shield, weapon in hand and this thing strapped to your leg ... maybe the little thing that it is a gillmen weapon, i.e the weapon of a race that can't drown, mean something.
Or that it come from one of the books with the worst cheese mixed with the good stuff. Some of those racial feats, items and spells can be brutally abused when applied to other races.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qv3
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Edit: Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Nope. By putting two hands on your 1H or 2H weapon, you're giving up any extra attacks you'd get if you were using a 1H weapon and using two-weapon fighting. Doesn't matter if you're trying to make punches, kicks, headbutts, knees, or whatever, the game is giving you a choice:
• fully commit to one attack with two hands for extra damage, or
• make an extra attack with TWF at the cost of not getting the extra damage from using two hands on one attack.
From here.
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It says it can be used while flying, too.
Or prone.
The trouble is moving normally with a blade "strapped to the ankle or foot of the wielder, pointing downward and jutting out beyond the wearer's leg". You would be sticking it into the ground with every step you take.
And the copyrigth notice say: "Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Race Guide © 2012, Paizo Publishing", whhile he PDT reply is: "Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response Jul 20, 2013, 01:37 AM", so the later FAQ supersede the earlier text of the ARG.
It says it can be used while flying, too.Or prone.
The trouble is moving normally with a blade "strapped to the ankle or foot of the wielder, pointing downward and jutting out beyond the wearer's leg". You would be sticking it into the ground with every step you take.
Hence the text:
The wearer cannot use a leg with a sea-knife strapped to it for walking or running.
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It says it can be used while flying, too.Or prone.
The trouble is moving normally with a blade "strapped to the ankle or foot of the wielder, pointing downward and jutting out beyond the wearer's leg". You would be sticking it into the ground with every step you take.
Hence the text:
The wearer cannot use a leg with a sea-knife strapped to it for walking or running.
I.e.: mostly useless.
Essentially only ammunition for people saying "see, there are ways to use a 2 handed weapon and get off hand weapon attacks."|
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Also, the Sea Knife.
A very specific weapon with a very specific exception to the rule, clearly mechanically explained... because it is an exception. Specific over general at it's finest.
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Also, the Sea Knife.A very specific weapon with a very specific exception to the rule, clearly mechanically explained... because it is an exception. Specific over general at it's finest.
Also, the Barbazu Beard.
There also needs to be a rule, before you can have an exception to it.
There is also the unarmed strike, which, as we can tell from the Monk, can be used with two handed weapons.
None of the examples note themselves as an exception to any rule, as there is no rule to be an exception of.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qv3
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Edit: Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.From here.Nope. By putting two hands on your 1H or 2H weapon, you're giving up any extra attacks you'd get if you were using a 1H weapon and using two-weapon fighting. Doesn't matter if you're trying to make punches, kicks, headbutts, knees, or whatever, the game is giving you a choice:
• fully commit to one attack with two hands for extra damage, or
• make an extra attack with TWF at the cost of not getting the extra damage from using two hands on one attack.
The FAQ and the statement say 'no offhand attack available if you use a two-handed weapon'.
Description: A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.
Offhand attacks are not available if you use TWF and the part 'requires no hands to use' is nonrelevant because no offhand attacks are available and SKR says:
Doesn't matter if you're trying to make punches, kicks, headbutts, knees, or whatever,..
Maybe some item description must be changed to fit the FAQ but the rules are clear enough. SKR explains it again in his statement. A creature with two arms can ..
• fully commit to one attack with two hands for extra damage, or• make an extra attack with TWF at the cost of not getting the extra damage from using two hands on one attack.
I know all two-handed TWF user will disagree but i that is the rule of this messageboards.
Mixing THF and TWF is only possible if you have more than two arms. Fine.
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Since the FAQ came out I have understood the rules to mean that a level 1 Human Fighter swinging a Greatsword could get no more than one attack each round. Two-weapon Fighting would be impossible.
Given the examples of the Beard and the Seaknife, we now have two possibilities:
1) The FAQ overrides their ability to be used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon, and the books require errata, or
2) Both items remain exceptions to the general rule that you can't get an off-hand attack while wielding a two-handed weapon.
Option #2 makes sense to me, since each weapon carries an additional "penalty" if you choose to use it. The Seaknife is at -2 to-hit, and just wielding it is a bother, while the Beard provokes AoOs just for using it.
I think these drawbacks balance out with the benefit of gaining an extra attack.
Can we get this thread back on course? The question isn't about two-handed weapons.
The question is, can a person using two weapon fighting wielding two light or one handed weapons also use an item such as the boot blade to make an additional attack.
Since the boot blade subsumes an off hand attack, it means either he can attack with one weapon in a hand and the boot blade, or attack with both weapons in both hands. But he could not attack with all 3 as it would require 2 off hand attacks, which a normal two armed character does not possess.
Since the FAQ came out I have understood the rules to mean that a level 1 Human Fighter swinging a Greatsword could get no more than one attack each round. Two-weapon Fighting would be impossible.
Given the examples of the Beard and the Seaknife, we now have two possibilities:
1) The FAQ overrides their ability to be used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon, and the books require errata, or
2) Both items remain exceptions to the general rule that you can't get an off-hand attack while wielding a two-handed weapon.
Option #2 makes sense to me, since each weapon carries an additional "penalty" if you choose to use it. The Seaknife is at -2 to-hit, and just wielding it is a bother, while the Beard provokes AoOs just for using it.
I think these drawbacks balance out with the benefit of gaining an extra attack.
That's precisely how I read it and, as you said, the additional and specific drawbacks of the weapons make the added ability for the extra attack make sense.
Can we get this thread back on course? The question isn't about two-handed weapons.
The question is, can a person using two weapon fighting wielding two light or one handed weapons also use an item such as the boot blade to make an additional attack.
Since the boot blade subsumes an off hand attack, it means either he can attack with one weapon in a hand and the boot blade, or attack with both weapons in both hands. But he could not attack with all 3 as it would require 2 off hand attacks, which a normal two armed character does not possess.
This is correct.
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Can we get this thread back on course? The question isn't about two-handed weapons.
The question is, can a person using two weapon fighting wielding two light or one handed weapons also use an item such as the boot blade to make an additional attack.
Since the boot blade subsumes an off hand attack, it means either he can attack with one weapon in a hand and the boot blade, or attack with both weapons in both hands. But he could not attack with all 3 and it would require 2 off hand attacks, which a normal two armed character does not possess.
According to the rules in the CRB....
If you have a weapon in each hand and a boot blade, you threaten with all three and can choose any single one to execute an attack of opportunity.
Since the number of attacks you get is based off BAB, the number of weapons you wield does not alter the number of attacks you get in a full attack. There are things that can give you more attacks: feats (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc.), spells (haste) and others.
However many attacks you've got, derived from BAB, feats, magic, whatever, that's how many attacks you can take in a full attack. If you have several weapons available (doesn't matter if it's two or fifty) then you can mix and match which weapons take which of your allotted attacks in any way you wish. So having a boot blade does not give you an extra attack.
This is changed slightly by using Two-Weapon Fighting. Using TWF, you get ONE extra attack, over and above your normal allotment. There are conditions attached to this: only during a full attack, attack penalties apply to all attacks, Str bonus to damage is halved for the designated off-hand attack, only one weapon can take the off-hand attack (or attacks if you have Improved or Greater TWF). these penalties only apply if you are getting an extra attack (or attacks) using TWF. None of these apply if you aren't getting extra attacks from TWF.
Long story short, merely having a boot blade threaten does not grant any extra attacks. Normal rules apply.