Just looking for people's experiences with this monk class feature. It seems, based on the small checklist of things that have to go right for it to take effect, to be one of those things that looks better on paper than in actual gameplay.
|
Just looking for people's experiences with this monk class feature. It seems, based on the small checklist of things that have to go right for it to take effect, to be one of those things that looks better on paper than in actual gameplay.
ive had very good success since ive been using enforcer+cruel AOMF with my monk. the free action demoralize + shaken condition nets a -4 to saves
then follow that up with mantis style and a high wisdom based character can give you a very high success rate.but other then that the success rate is very low...
an absolutly phynominal build ive played was monk4/hexcrafter magus 8 very, powerful debuffer. bestow curse+ shaken+ cruel stunning fist, just crushes BBEGs. sensei archetype is a must.
A player in my game (now on hiatus) is playing a pretty standard monk of the sacred mountain (25-point buy) reaching level 9 before we stopped and I'll admit he has had difficulty making use of his stunning fist. He has to hit with it and then they have to fail their save and it just didn't happen all that often. We don't have anyone playing a monk in our current game.
Against an average enemy it will fail a lot. You kind of have to pick out an enemy who you know will be less likely to succeed it. Generally arcane casters since they have weak fortitude and tend to have lower ACs. Even then, it's not very good, since you have to have two rolls go your way, and even if they're both 70% chances to go your way, that's still succeeds less than half the time, and most of the time, you're not going to get that, as a monk. Still, it's useful when you find the right target.
If I were to remake the ability, I'd either make it a touch attack, but have it not do damage as well, or make Amulet of Mighty Fists' Enhancement bonus also apply to save DC or possibly both. I haven't run the numbers on what it would do, but I feel that would be more in line with the expected chance to succeed with spells and abilities.
Once per campaign. Maybe...
I've never actually seen it work, but I haven't played with many long time monks.
Against an average enemy it will fail a lot. You kind of have to pick out an enemy who you know will be less likely to succeed it. Generally arcane casters since they have weak fortitude and tend to have lower ACs. Even then, it's not very good, since you have to have two rolls go your way, and even if they're both 70% chances to go your way, that's still succeeds less than half the time, and most of the time, you're not going to get that, as a monk. Still, it's useful when you find the right target.
If I were to remake the ability, I'd either make it a touch attack, but have it not do damage as well, or make Amulet of Mighty Fists' Enhancement bonus also apply to save DC or possibly both. I haven't run the numbers on what it would do, but I feel that would be more in line with the expected chance to succeed with spells and abilities.
You could also make it so it didn't have to do damage in order to trigger, as neither Punishing Kick nor Elemental Fist have such a requirement. That, or making it so that it applies to the first successful attack (if any) you make in a round, so it's less likely a full-attacking monk will waste the ability usage. Hell, maybe both.
In the last 4 levels one time and that only on a caster. It bears noting that we also have a 30 pb so my stats are fairly high in comparison to average as well.
What's your overall build like? Base + Quinggong? Do you have any style feats or items to boost it?
I had it work once, on one of my 5 Monk characters.
I had it work once, on one of my 5 Monk character.
Wow, that is terrible. Was it something you attempted to use continuously, as in ran out of uses every day because why not at least try? Also, was any of this using 3.0 / 3.5?
I'm starting to have a hard time believing that all of these stories I hear about this ability's usage are just bad luck on the dice.
I realize that I have no experience with Stunning Fist because I always trade it out.
Normally I assume we eventually graduate from humanoid enemies to big monsters so targeting Fortitude when you're a MAD class seemed terrible because most big monsters have good fort saves. Actually just trying to target any save while MAD seems like a terrible idea. Plus I have to declare I'm using it before I hit it. Touch spells don't have to go through that.
Well, the problems are twofold, as near as I can tell ...
1. You have to attempt to hit with it, and monks attack regular AC and have a medium BAB.
2. Monks lack ways to boost their save DCs.
Add to that the Monk's MAD status, where you can't expect to have a particularly high WIS, and you've got a recipe for failure unless you choose your targets VERY well.
One thing I've considered is making the Stunning Fist more like a weakened Quivering Palm ... let the monk make a touch attack instead of a strike to inflict the stun. He could still swing if he wants, but wouldn't have to.
Another option might be to have a Ki Pool option (maybe a feat to acquire this option) that would let you spend Ki Points to boost the save DC.
I had it work once, on one of my 5 Monk character.Wow, that is terrible. Was it something you attempted to use continuously, as in ran out of uses every day because why not at least try? Also, was any of this using 3.0 / 3.5?
I'm starting to have a hard time believing that all of these stories I hear about this ability's usage are just bad luck on the dice.
It was something I used fairly often. Generally the first round of every fight was "Charge in, punch a guy, attempt Stunning Fist on that punch". The problem with it is the same as with a lot of spells that require an attack roll and then a save. The chance of success decreases exponentially. Couple that with the fact that it's a Fort save (most monsters' best save), and the DC is likely to be fairly low (due to Wis being a secondary stat at best)...prognosis: not good.
It actually works semi-reliably on casters as far as theory goes, but none of the characters I was playing with ever really fought casters...at least ones that weren't of a monster race with solid built-in Fort saves (like Serpentfolk).
It has worked rarely for me. That said when it does work the enemy generally does not get to take another action again.
Zhayne, doesn't Quivering Palm have the same problems, though? I thought it was 'declare before your attack roll' and 'no dmg = no effect', just like Stunning Fist. What am I missing?
That Ki Pool option is cool, too.
Zhayne, doesn't Quivering Palm have the same problems, though? I thought it was 'declare before your attack roll' and 'no dmg = no effect', just like Stunning Fist. What am I missing?
That Ki Pool option is cool, too.
My mistake, for some reason I thought QP was a touch attack, not a punch. I was thinking of a similar ability from a different game system.
2 year campaign with level 9 characters. From what I recall the Monks Stunning Fists has worked twice. And he tries to use it a LOT.
Needless to say he gets a bit frustrated.
|
I was considering using the Crushing Blow feat instead of the Stunning Fist. It can help out your allies as the Armor Class of the enemy will drop by how much your Wisdom Modifier is. The drawback is that it is a Full-Round Action.
With the Aasimar build that I am setting up, I can get about -8 AC at Level 8, with a DC of 25.
|
Just looking for people's experiences with this monk class feature. It seems, based on the small checklist of things that have to go right for it to take effect, to be one of those things that looks better on paper than in actual gameplay.
From what I've experienced on the forums, people that talk bad about Monks generally dislike them because of their lack of damage and accuracy. There is a lot of comparing to a front-line martial.
Personally, I've thoroughly enjoyed my Monk for my first 6 levels so far. Combine them with Druid, and HOLY COW they become quite an impress class whether you make them a hybrid or still keep them as a martial. However, by themselves, especially as a standard Monk, their damage and attack with or without flurry is too low imo. You'll have a rough time hitting and bypassing resistances. They don't tend to bring much to the party other than decent CMB checks to trip/disarm/bull rush. Those are my only qualms with them. Otherwise they're great.
Flavor-wise, they are FULL of it. You can really make conversations awkward, funny, or unexpectedly successful with you're more than likely poor charisma. Combat is superbly fun(though, all the missing tends to put a dapper in it) when putting their acrobatics to use - As a Vanaras I tend to climb onto things, jump or fall off, and crush them with my weight and fist. I also like to leap over very large gaps with my +28 or so to jump and yell "Falcooooooon-" and if I somehow hit them... "PAWNCH!!!". I almost always make my first attack a Stunning Fist. They also get a bunch of weird abilities, even more with being Qinggong, that you can put to good use to really change your character into what you want them to resemble. It's a lot of fun, but frustrating at times.
for the first 6 levels even rogues play well...
Just looking for people's experiences with this monk class feature. It seems, based on the small checklist of things that have to go right for it to take effect, to be one of those things that looks better on paper than in actual gameplay.From what I've experienced on the forums, people that talk bad about Monks generally dislike them because of their lack of damage and accuracy. There is a lot of comparing to a front-line martial.
Personally, I've thoroughly enjoyed my Monk for my first 6 levels so far. Combine them with Druid, and HOLY COW they become quite an impress class whether you make them a hybrid or still keep them as a martial. However, by themselves, especially as a standard Monk, their damage and attack with or without flurry is too low imo. You'll have a rough time hitting and bypassing resistances. They don't tend to bring much to the party other than decent CMB checks to trip/disarm/bull rush. Those are my only qualms with them. Otherwise they're great.
Flavor-wise, they are FULL of it. You can really make conversations awkward, funny, or unexpectedly successful with you're more than likely poor charisma. Combat is superbly fun(though, all the missing tends to put a dapper in it) when putting their acrobatics to use - As a Vanaras I tend to climb onto things, jump or fall off, and crush them with my weight and fist. I also like to leap over very large gaps with my +28 or so to jump and yell "Falcooooooon-" and if I somehow hit them... "PAWNCH!!!". I almost always make my first attack a Stunning Fist. They also get a bunch of weird abilities, even more with being Qinggong, that you can put to good use to really change your character into what you want them to resemble. It's a lot of fun, but frustrating at times.
Thanks, but I don't think any of that addressed your overall success with Stunning Fist. I love the flavor of monks, plan to play one in the next campaign I'm in on the weekends. Pathfinder is predominantly a combat game, though, so any class ability that is obviously flawed in practice is going to cause a re-evaluation of chosen archetypes to get around it. That's the whole purpose of this thread: to see if this is such a flawed class ability based on the experiences people here have had with it.
Flavor-wise, they are FULL of it.
Something tells me I interpreted this sentence differently from how you intended it.
|
|
Something tells me I interpreted this sentence differently from how you intended it.Flavor-wise, they are FULL of it.
I just read that again, and I see that different perspective now Lol. Woops! It was with much sincerity I swear...
@Cerberus Seven
Oh, sorry about that. I think I misread your initial statement.
Anyways, it's about 40% of the time for me on average. I'm content with it, since my damage still occurs when I use it. I try not to rely on it too heavily as most creatures will have a decent fort save.
Works about 30% of the time my monk uses it. I'm fine with really, since stun is such a great condition. Highlight of my monk's career was stunning a dragon 3 times in a row (it rolled bad, but after the first stun, our void wizard kept using that school ability that lowers AC/saves)
