|
No, a Swashbuckler cannot currently use Gloves of Dueling.
ArenCordial wrote: Quick question: Do gloves of dueling work for Swashbuckler Weapon Training?
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote: Not sure.
As it is written right now...no. I'm considering changing the wording of the class feature based on this questions but I need to do more thinking and research on the ramifications. It may be just easier to design similar magic items for the Advanced Class Guide that do work with swashbuckler weapon training.
Casts Raise Thread..
Now that the ACG is out properly, I've looked at the wording of the Weapon Training class ability, and the Shwashbuckler Weapon training ability, and the bonuses work exactly the same way, they start at +1 and increase at 9th, 13th and 17th levels..
So do we know if the Gloves of Duelling will work for a swashbuckler or not?
I'd allow it now that the Swash and Fighters Weapon Training are functionally identical bar the weapon group limitation
Thanks Diminuendo,
I checked the wording of the appropriate bit of both abilities, and it seemed the same to me.
Only issue is that this is for PFS, so I should probably get my VC to ok it, or not.
since the Swash is basically a two class archetype it should be fine
|
|
I think that the answer is no, Gloves of Dueling do not work with Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote: Not sure.
As it is written right now...no. I'm considering changing the wording of the class feature based on this questions but I need to do more thinking and research on the ramifications.
The wording of the class feature has not changed since Stephen Radney-MacFarland said the answer was no.
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
it has Weapon Training in the title and has the exact same bonus (albeit with a smaller selection of weapons) how is it not weapon training?
|
Fair enough. I guess even the FAQ covers that. "It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing".
But I'd argue that Swashbuckler Weapon Training still mirrors the standard Weapon Training close enough that it should count for things such as Gloves of Dueling.
Otherwise, what good is the FAQ?
Here's a question... how does Weapon Training work when you have a multiclassed Swashbuckler/Fighter?
-Matt
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think it is another case of Paizo using the same name too many times. What they should do instead of leaving guidelines for such thing is either say X counts as Y, or tighten up the restrictions so everyone is clear on what works.
If the fighter ability was referenced, and you had to choose a certain weapon then I would say it counted. I know some archetypes choose the weapon for you but they still reference weapon training so that would also work.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The FAQ also states that
it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.
So let's look at those game mechanics
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each.
So you get +1 at level 5, increasing by +1 every 4 levels thereafter.
And then...
At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level)
So, in relation to the bonus, and how it progresses, (which is the only important factor in relation to Gloves of Dueling), the bonus progresses in the same way. The only differences are that Swashbuckler WT only applies to one weapon group, and provides Imp Crit as compensation for not giving WT on multiple weapon groups, as Fighter WT does.
As the FAQ states that it is the game mechanics that matter, and the bestowed bonus of both weapon training abilities (+1 at 5th Level, +1/four levels thereafter) on the first (Fighter) or only (swashbuckler) weapon group is identical, I would say it's fairly conclusive that the FAQ would cover Swashbuckler WT counting as Fighter WT for the purpose of rules that improve Fighter WT.
|
|
The FAQ also states that
it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.
Now that I think about it, the FAQ is irrelevant as the Swashbuckler is not an archetype of the Fighter.
Swashbuckler Weapon Training is a completely different ability to the Weapon Training that Fighters receive, and hence any feats, items or other abilities that interact with Weapon Training do not work with Swashbuckler Weapon Training unless specified.
Now that I think about it, the FAQ is irrelevant as the Swashbuckler is not an archetype of the Fighter.
Best argument yet for a no. As it totally bypasses the point that the abilities work in the same way. I suppose that FAQ was brought in because it was the closest FAQ relating to the question being asked.
Don't suppose anyone knows if the Advance Class origins book has a gloves of dueling alike for swashbucklers in it?
Also, you say that the name is "needlessly confusing".
Since the Designers are likely also cognizant of the similarities in name, wouldn't that also point to the idea that they are basically the same in function?
I am not sure about the designers being cognizant of similarities in name, look at Monk and Sacred Fist AC bonus.
How is "Swashbuckler Weapon Training" not a "more specific version" of "Weapon Training"?The FAQ never answers "Yes" to the question of whether a "more specific version" of an ability counts as that ability. It answers that "It depends" and then lists the conditions to qualify. The description and game mechanics of Swashbuckler Weapon Training never state that it works like weapon training, and you never make a selection as you would through weapon training, so it misses both opportunities to qualify.
Actually there is a selection with Swashbuckler Weapon training: one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. It's a selection you make at first level by taking the class (like the spear training for dragoon or the single weapon for weapon master), but it's still a selection of weapons.
Now, swashbuckler weapon training doesn't reference fighter weapon training, so that's iffy. However, technically, gloves of dueling also do not mention "fighter" weapon training:
"If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2. "
Is Swashbuckler Weapon Training a "weapon training class feature" that gives a "weapon training bonus"? I'd say yes. It's certainly not RAI, but it is RAW.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But a monkey wrench is a wrench -- and that would be more relevant to the case of swashbuckler weapon training vs. (fighter) weapon training.
In any case, the referenced FAQ is totally irrelevant to the question of whether "swashbuckler weapon training" qualifies as "weapon training" for the purpose of using Gloves of Dueling, as the FAQ is about archetypes that replace a feature of a given class (in this case, the Weapon Training class feature of the Fighter) and the Swashbuckler is in fact a separate class with a nearly identical class feature (in both name and functionality) of its own. During the playtest, the new hybrid classes were sometimes regarded as archetypes of their parent classes, but that is clearly not the case now that the actual book has been released.
I think the statements about Channel Energy from different classes would actually be more applicable than the FAQ referenced above.
If the swashbuckler's ability was also called "weapon training" it'd work, as the gloves don't call out the fighter class in particular.
But it doesn't. It requires "weapon training" not "swashbuckler weapon training". They're not the same thing any more than an "elephant whale" is an "elephant", a "monkey wrench" is a "monkey", or a "rainbow" is "rain" or a "bow". It doesn't matter if the name is similar - it's not enough.
That's not a valid analogy, and it's not helpful if it's sarcasm.
Swashbuckler weapon training and fighter weapon training are more alike than they are different: both class features give a scaling bonus when using a particular group of weapons, and the swashbuckler weapon training was designed based on the fighter class feature.
The correct analogy is "channel energy" and "channel positive energy", like David Knott 242 said.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can't spell "Swashbuckler Weapon Training" without "Weapon Training."
|
OT but what is the armor that is Swash specific?No, there is nothing similar in AC Origins. In fact, none of the Wondrous Items in Origins are for swashbucklers. They got one armor and one weapon enhancement.
Don't suppose anyone knows if the Advance Class origins book has a gloves of dueling alike for swashbucklers in it?
While not exclusive to the Swashbuckler, AC Origins contains the Corsair armor property which has an additional benefit for panache and grit users.
I really, really hate the Weapon Training FAQ. It's one of the few that actually bothers me. It elevates form over substance.
Expert Archer literally is Weapon Training, just limited to Bows. It doesn't add extra provisions like more bonuses to CMB or CMD. It doesn't have extra restrictions like being predicated on movement or empty hands or anything. It follows the exact same progression. It is the same entry as the Two-Handed Fighter's version, except it writes out the entry instead of saying "It's weapon fighting but with X weapon" like Two-Handed Fighter does. So Expert Archer doesn't get to benefit from Gloves of Dueling.
Dragoon's version actually does work slightly different (+2 to dmg instead of +1). But its entry explicitly states that it works the same way as weapon training (likely because it's not obvious, unlike the assumption one would make about an Unarmed Fighter's entry), so it benefits.
I don't get it. Doesn't make any sense to me. If it functions just like Weapon Training, it should benefit just like Weapon Training, particularly if it's simply an archetype of the base class with a class feature that's generally modified in name only. It seems like many archetypes are punished because writers either thought the ability obviously worked and should be treated the same or there were space constraints so they didn't include language stating the obvious. To be clear, I think the Dragoon's version should benefit from the Gloves. I just think that versions like Expert Archer should, too.
So RAW, this is how it works. That's never how I'll run it at home, though. And RAW, this shouldn't work for Swashbucklers. Frankly, I'd actually be annoyed if they changed things so the Swashbuckler's version of Weapon Training worked with the Gloves when an identical (even less powerful because of the lack of improved critical) version of the ability from an archetype of the actual Fighter class doesn't.
/rant
Swashbuckler weapon training gives free improved critical with all swashbuckler weapons, fighter weapon training doesn't. That is worth the trade-off of gloves of dueling not working with them imo. Especially since you can take the runner-up deliquescent gloves.
I highly suggest you re-read the FAQ regarding rules and effects that involve class features, as the answer to this question is in that FAQ.
Based upon the examples the FAQ cites, a feature similar to the one in question that either limits/alters the feature, but still follows the core mechanic of the feature in question, would still qualify as being that feature for the purposes of rules that involve that class feature. However, a feature that replaces each individual rank of said feature with a different ability does not count as that feature.
Two Fighter archetypes, one that is actually referenced in the FAQ, the Dragoon and Two-Handed Fighter, are prime examples of this, serving as a bridge for the Swashbuckler Training being a viable candidate for the Gloves. The Dragoon Spear Training feature states that "a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group." Since this feature specifically not only specifically calls out the base feature, but also calls out the increase as a weapon training bonus; not only is that benefit altered (+1 hit, +2 damage), this still falls under the category of being weapon training.
Similarly, the Two-Handed Fighter keeps the same name, specifically says that the benefits "only apply when wielding two-handed weapons," and says it (otherwise) works as the parent feature.
So, we can confirm that a restriction of weapon selection (and even application) don't serve as disqualifications for counting as that feature, as well as a difference of benefit values and subjects, which is only reinforced by the linked FAQ.
The last piece of evidence is that the gloves only refer to a wielder having the weapon training class feature; no class is listed (meaning having it be Fighter-only is out the window), and with it citing the parent feature, all other child features (that is, similar/related features that were spawned in the likeness of that feature) would count as that parent feature for its benefits, due to the linked FAQ.
Of course, I find this makes Swashbucklers crazy-OP and has the Fighter curl into a little ball and cry like a young girl who got humiliated by her "friends," but if there's anything I've learned from Paizo's publications, it's that balance isn't one of the things on their to-do list (especially when imbalance, something that is glaringly obvious in the face of the consumers and players, is fairly prevalent and the Devs only fuel that fire). It is a prime reason why they simply release content without much care for how it impacts itself; they would rather leave it up to the consumers/players to regulate whether something is strong, weak, available/banned, etc. But imparting the thought of balance is not something one does when imparting what something actually does in regards to the rules, and only leads to false rulings.
|
I am well aware of the FAQ, and based on the exact language of Swashbuckler Weapon training, it works as Expert Archer. It does not require you to make a specific choice for weapon training. It does not mention weapon training anywhere in the text of the ability.
At 5th level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with bows. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
The language is the same. Per the FAQ, Swashbuckler weapon training does not count as weapon training.
Sorry to necro this thread but I was curious if this ever got a 100% answer?
Nope. You never will since there are several people who will say no even if it is in black and white.
I don't understand why it doesn't work. Gloves of dueling refers to weapon training as weapon training, not fighter weapon training.
Swashbuckler's ability says swashbuckler weapon training.
Nothing in the item's description says it refers to the fighter's weapon training.
I'll just be picking this comment since it is a nice basis for my discussion on this necro'd topic
Besides the various creator commentary cited that acknowledges that it doesn't seem to work, I must emphasize that the name swashbuckler's weapon training means absolutely nothing in this context.
Going with the archetype faq:
(It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Conversely it doesn't matter if the name is the same as the ability. It might as well be called "Swashbuckler's Fancy Pants sword-ery". What matters is the mechanics.
The fighter class feature has you pick a specific narrow group of weapons (lets say spears), and you get bonuses to that. One of the most important mechanics for this discussion is the limited groups of weapons. Even if an archetype restricts you to one specific group, it is still referencing the mechanics introduced in the fighter class.
After that, the exact progression and numbers on the bonuses don't matter- neither does little extras. sohei can flurry with their weapon training groups, but it still uses the weapon groups and says it works like weapon training. So the improved critical thing doesn't affect this rules wise (although it is a valid reason to prevent the gloves of dueling balance wise- it is a pretty great free feat for a class that uses a lot of rapiers and scimitars and benefits a lot from crits)
The important thing is that Swashbuckler does not have restrictions to those groupings. It works with ANY light weapon. It works with ANY one handing piercing weapon (and depending on how rules and FAQs fall, perhaps 2 handed piercing weapons that went through titan mauler barbarian). The swashbuckler completely ignores the fighter weapon groups entirely, and uses a different set of mechanics of its own. And after that, it doesn't have any language that ignores this difference (such as "otherwise works like the fighter class feature").
So overall, it doesn't count.
Consider what the FAQ says about the Archer...
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
If it doesn't work for Expert Archer then it doesn't work for Swashbuckler Weapon Training, unless you consider the name of the ability enough to say that it's referencing Weapon Training. I think it's kind of a goofy ruling, but it's pretty inescapable.