The first thing to do is cut the hyperbole, so things can be discussed in a rational manner.
The second is to figure out what aspects of the class makes it one of t he most popular classes (if not THE most popular class) amongst the averge player.
If I had to guess based on my long-time group of fellow players that do not optimize it's that rolling lots of dice = better.
Sneak attack is better
Evocation is better
Vital Strike is better.
More dice is more better.
Please stay on topic.
I think the only ranged build that is viable
Daelen made a devastating range combatant using fire sight + smoke sticks.
Throw in sniper goggles and it's just nasty.
With rapid shot and haste, that's 6 sneak attacks at lvl 20 with a short bow doing 11d6+25 damage per hit at lvl 20 (to foes within 30ft), 11d6+5 for farther enemies. That's just looking at sneak attack and base weapon damage.
Throw in a goz mask from inner sea guide and you don't even need fire sight.
True, but you can use the fire sight trick from lvl 1 onwards.
*Although that item is going into my list of "things the wizard could craft for me".
This has so far been a great thread!
Based on a rogue for Wrath of the Righteous (yes, I know it's not perfectly "optimal;" feel free to swap out Martial Weapon Proficiency with Weapon Finesse and change to 13 Str, 17 Dex, and Rapier instead of Longsword):
Human (Silver-Tongued) Rogue (Investigator, Sanctified Rogue of Iomedae), Favored Class Bonus +1/6 Rogue Talent
14 Str, 16 Dex (+2 race), 12 Con, 13 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha
Traits: Birthmark, Truth's Agent
1st- Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd- Rogue Talent (Minor Magic (disrupt undead 3/day))
3rd- Combat Expertise
4th- +1 Int; Rogue Talent (Combat Trick (Gang Up))
5th- Improved Initiative
6th- Rogue Talent (Major Magic (protection from evil 2/day), Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
7th- Quick Draw
8th- +1 Dex; Rogue Talent (Follow Clues)
9th- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10th- Advanced Rogue Talent (Familiar)
11th- Improved Familiar (Cassissian Angel)
12th- +1 Dex; Advanced Rogue Talent (Dispelling Attack), Advanced Rogue Talent (Hunter's Surprise)
13th- Iron Will
...
Ranged Attack: Short Bow or Composite Short Bow, plus disrupt undead (especially in surprise round vs. undead)
Melee: Longsword, plus (Alchemical Silver) Battle Aspergillum or (Cold Iron) Dagger
Skills: 10 Skill Ranks per level (including Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Knowledge (Local), Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device)
Wait are those archetypes? (Investigator, Sanctified Rogue of Iomedae)
Wait are those archetypes? (Investigator, Sanctified Rogue of Iomedae)
Investigator is in Advanced Player's Guide. Sanctified Rogue is in Ultimate Combat; this rogue is associated with the church of Iomedae (has a LG alignment, too), hence the choice of Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword).
Ok but one of the points of the thread is to not use archetypes.
Actually, all you need to make the Rogue "effective" is a Ring of Invisibility. The Rogue can hang back and use a bow for ranged attacks that provide Sneak Attack damage - add in Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyarrow, and you could have a 10th level Rogue sneak attacking with four arrows in one round, three of the shots doing 1d6 + 5d6 + 4 damage, before any magic bonuses. If you'd used the Rogue Talent giving him cantrips, and add in Arcane Strike, you're doing an extra three points of damage.
Unnamed Hero
Male Half-Elf Rogue 10
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 63 (10d8+10)
Fort +4, Ref +11 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +3; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged masterwork composite shortbow +9/+9/+4 (1d6+8/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
Spell-Like Abilities
3/day—minor magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Stealth)
Skills Acrobatics +17, Appraise +14, Disable Device +20, Disguise +12, Perception +15 (+20 to locate traps), Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +17, Spellcraft +11, Stealth +28, Use Magic Device +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Halfling
SQ elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, improved evasion, minor magic [detect magic] [3/day], stealthy sniper, surprise attacks), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Ring of invisibility, Wand of invisibility, greater; Other Gear Leather armor, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite shortbow (Str +0), Cloak of elvenkind, 140 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Minor Magic (Detect Magic) (3/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrip as a spell-like ability.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Ring of invisibility By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.
Construction
Requirements: Forge Ring, invisibility; Cost 10,000 gp
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stealthy Sniper (Ex) Sniping is only a -10 penalty, rather than -20.
Surprise Attacks (Ex) Opponents are always flat-footed against you in the surprise round.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
The Wand of Improved Invisibility could be used by him for situations where he's able to prepare ahead of time for combat. Thus he remains invisible and every attack does Sneak Attack damage. Mind you, he can also Stealth and then roll to remain Stealthed with a -10 to his Stealth roll.
So. If he hits with every shot, then he could very well do 4d6 + 32 for the arrows, and 15d6 for the three Sneak Attacks. On an average damage roll he'd be doing 98 damage that round, as a 10th level character. Even assuming the last shot misses, he still does just shy of 70 damage on average.
And if he'd instead taken Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak as Rogue Talents (say in place of Improved Evasion and Stealthy Sniper), then he would be doing an extra 5 damage on average per successful sneak attack.
@Tangent101
1) +9 to hit is fairly low for 10th level
2) What do you do in the levels where you need to boost your range damage, but 10,000g is still outside of your price range?
3) Why Manyshot? I thought that the second arrow does not do sneak attack damage.
4) Why the skill focus(stealth) on a build that depends on invisibility?
5) I also thought that with Ring of Invisibility you become visible after the first attack. So how does this rogue consistently sneak attack with all four attacks?
If a GM is that much of a minutia rules lawyer that he'd rule that only the first attack gets sneak attack damage (and that could very well be a FAQ candidate), then the Wand of Improved Invisibility would compensate for that problem. Mind you, I didn't bother buying a magic bow, but not having the Ring of Invisibility and just using the Wand of Improved Invisibility would let the Rogue attack with impunity with full sneak attack bonuses.
So drop the Ring of Invisibility. Add in several magic items to boost damage and the like instead. And of course, just using Stealth and restealthing after each shot at a -10 (while in combat so the foe should face penalties to Perception checks) would allow multiple attacks with Sneak Attack bonuses. (Oh yeah, and replacing the Ring of Invisibility with Sniper Goggles just upped the damage of sneak attacks by +10 per attack.)
As for Skill Focus Stealth? It's because it's a half-elf. I chose the race at random. Besides, Stealth works when Invisibility does not. This build is meant to be a stealthy sniper that does a lot of damage while hiding. At level 5, you could have this non-magic build:
Unnamed Hero
Half-Elf Rogue 5
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 33 (5d8+5)
Fort +2, Ref +8 (+1 bonus vs. traps), Will +1; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense, uncanny dodge; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged shortbow +5/+5 (1d6+3/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 19
Feats Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Stealth)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Appraise +9, Disable Device +12, Disguise +7, Perception +10 (+12 to locate traps), Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +12, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +15, Use Magic Device +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Halfling
SQ elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, surprise attacks), trapfinding +2
Other Gear Leather armor, Arrows (20), Shortbow, 109 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Deadly Aim -1/+2 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Surprise Attacks (Ex) Opponents are always flat-footed against you in the surprise round.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +2 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
With each sneak attack shot, you'd do 4d6+3 damage. So if you're attacking from concealment, the enemy is flatfooted to you and you get two attacks for a potential of 8d6+6 damage. Not too shabby for a 5th level character.
Of course, he might not be able to attack while stealthed. But the Barbarian might not be able to hit while using Power Attack because his foe has too high an armor class to effectively hit. The wizard may not be able to cast spells because someone hit him with a Silence. Any class can be in a situation where their abilities cannot be used to their fullest extent.
This does not diminish those classes. This just means you have to find ways in which to use that character's abilities to the best.
Using stealth after a shot or "sniping" is a move action. I don't think you can normally full attack off of it.
Can we make the Fighter base class functional?
Restrictions:
Must take Endurance and the Vital Strike line.
Can't assume you'll get to use combat feats.
Have to have a high Will save.Seriously though, the only time I've ever seen a decently played Rogue not be a fully functional and effective member of the group is when everyone else is über optimized. Most often Rogues are made less effective by GM's de-emphasizing and role play. The rogue we had in SnS absolutely rocked and had some of the campaigns coolest moments by far.
EDIT: reading the posts and responses so far, I get the impression that this is an 'I hate rogues' thread where any build - even ones that meet the absurd requirements - will just be picked apart by the OP. Functional and ultra optimized are two very different things.
Functional is defined by expectations so it will always vary by table. I think rogues can work at a table. How well they work depends on how a GM runs a game, and the lack or surplus of RP does not affect how well they do in combat.
edit: If you have nontactical buddies that won't flank that also affects the perception of how the class works.
By the rules only the first arrow would get sneak attack damage. That is part of the reason why it is hard to build a range based rogue.
edit:allowing a class to ignore rules will just make it look weaker, and there are not too many times full BAB classes have trouble hitting even when power attacking unless it is a boss fight, but in those cases the class will be buffed so that normally cancels out also.
Yes feel free to assume the rogue has someone buffing it since that is how most groups are likely to play.
You also can not snipe and get full round attacks in.
If you have nontactical buddies that won't flank that also affects the perception of how the class works.
I've found that situations where flanking is impossible or suicidal are frequent enough that it behooves you to play a character that can function without having to flank.
If you have nontactical buddies that won't flank that also affects the perception of how the class works.I've found that situations where flanking is impossible or suicidal are frequent enough that it behooves you to play a character that can function without having to flank.
There is an intimidate based rogue build that can make people flat footed against it, but that requires more feats that people dont want to use since they prefer to go with a TWF dex rogue. Going with a STR rogue gives more feats to spare for it though.
Huh. Well, I was always more knowledgeable of 2nd edition rules than the more current ones.
My point stands, however. I can easily strip away the abilities of any other class to make them ineffectual. For instance: sic an immaterial foe against a fighter or barbarian so they only have a 50% chance of hitting. Or using Silence on the Wizard or Cleric.
When in an environment where a Rogue can use his or her abilities, then they can thrive and be quite effective in combat. When in an environment where other classes cannot use their abilities, none of the classes are.
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There is an intimidate based rogue build that can make people flat footed against it, but that requires more feats that people dont want to use since they prefer to go with a TWF dex rogue. Going with a STR rogue gives more feats to spare for it though.If you have nontactical buddies that won't flank that also affects the perception of how the class works.I've found that situations where flanking is impossible or suicidal are frequent enough that it behooves you to play a character that can function without having to flank.
Actually I found(from this thread) that a feint build works with TWF. You either grab two feats (two weapon feint, improved two weapon feint) or you budget 3 feats (improved feint, greater feint, and two weapon feint).
Huh. Well, I was always more knowledgeable of 2nd edition rules than the more current ones.
My point stands, however. I can easily strip away the abilities of any other class to make them ineffectual. For instance: sic an immaterial foe against a fighter or barbarian so they only have a 50% chance of hitting. Or using Silence on the Wizard or Cleric.
When in an environment where a Rogue can use his or her abilities, then they can thrive and be quite effective in combat. When in an environment where other classes cannot use their abilities, none of the classes are.
I guess by immaterial you mean incorporeal. There is no longer a 50% miss chance* for incorporeal creatures, and you have to use common problems in a game to make a point, not corner cases such as silence spells. The point the others are making is that it is easier to make a rogue less effective, which is true. That does not mean the class is useless, but it does make the rogue a weaker class.
*The game now requires for you to have a +1 magic weapon, and you do 50% damage, and +1 weapon should be had by level 3.
The rogue being effective in combat depends on his party, and how much he was made to contribute to combat.
RAW improved two weapon feint does not need two weapon feint :P (unless there is an FAQ?)
You are correct and I hope it is not changed. The rogue already has enough feats to have to take just to get to this feat.
RAW improved two weapon feint does not need two weapon feint :P (unless there is an FAQ?)You are correct and I hope it is not changed. The rogue already has enough feats to have to take just to get to this feat.
*facepalm
Wow I totally missed that.
The rogue being effective in combat depends on his party, and how much he was made to contribute to combat.
*monster backs into corner* "Where is your God now rogue! Bwahahahaha!"
If only our rogue had better teamwork. He would surely be able to flank this foe.
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The rogue being effective in combat depends on his party, and how much he was made to contribute to combat.*monster backs into corner* "Where is your God now rogue! Bwahahahaha!"
If only our rogue had better teamwork. He would surely be able to flank this foe.
this is really a DM (IMO) douching the rogue. if a monster backs into the corner, tel everyone to lay off and shoot it to death.
It gets to pick, let the rogue flank, or get shot to death. (most BBEGs and other monsters are only effective in melee) if he is a wizard or such, silence, rage, charm person, etc, etc. ofc if he is smart enough to back into a corner, he is smart enough to get feinted :P
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if he is smart enough to back into a corner, he is smart enough to get feinted :P
That's the idea!
Also it's not a douche move. Being flanked causes a creatures to take 10% increased damage from those flanking AND blocks off escape paths. My GM tends to be very tactical with NPCs of decent intelligence. They are either in corners, back to back, or set up in such a way flanking one gets the flanker flanked.
Normally he doesn't even have to try. It normally happens in dungeons and hallways do to lack of space.
It's not like this is specific to his campaigns. He's running RotRL.
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as said, rogues need to be tactical. If you have a lot of players that like to charge head long into a room and "smite the evil within" as it were it will be more difficult. Sometimes rogues have to take the risk of getting flanked. at lvl 9, with celestial armor and belt of dex +4 (leaving a bit of gold for weapons) you can hit about 28 armor base. sure, its not -that- great, but, add combat exp. (evens to +0 with flanking) offensive defense (at that level thats +5 ac) and improved uncanny dodge. you have an ac of ~35
28 AC is not bad at level 9. The average CR 9 monster has a + 17 to hit so you will be missed over 50% of the time.
Assault Leader. Teamed up with a heavy hitter, her misses mean her flanking ally can make an immediate attack. Also, if she takes Positioning Attack, then she CAN flank the foe afterward without worrying about Attacks of Opportunity against her.
Think of the Bard. On his own, the Bard is... adequate. But Bard Song improves the effectiveness of other characters. He buffs the others, improves their effectiveness, and as a result is an effective part of the team. Likewise, the Rogue works with others to get the best effectiveness.
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Isn't there already another thread still going right now about "how to make the rogue functional," that is up to hundreds of posts?
Since the rogue is functional and always has been, I see no reason for ANOTHER thread about this.
The rogue is a strategist/utility/team-player class. It functions perfectly in those roles. There is nothing wrong with not meting out a thousand points of damage per round or killing a dragon with one blow, or taking damage like a tank, or whatever you people think is wrong with the class.
Get over it.
Ok but one of the points of the thread is to not use archetypes.
<shrug> The archetypes don't affect the character in any drastic way (investigator gives a benefit to gathering information with Diplomacy checks in place of Trapfinding, sanctified rogue gives a +1 on Fort and Will saves and augury 1/day in place of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge). Remove the archetypes and the character is pretty much the same, if not more effective in combat and disabling traps.
Since the rogue is functional and always has been
Please post builds then to demonstrate this as others have done.
The Rogue causing the enemy to retreat into a corner is actually the best case scenario for the party. Once the bad guy is in the corner, you have the fighter go in closing escape routes, the rogue falls back and switches to range (even unoptimized range is still adding damage that wasn't going to be there), while the casters/other range users enjoy unleashing hell with no chance of reprisal.
1d6 with a short bow is like you are not even there.
Monster then kills fighter and then uses range options to kill the rest of the party and then he kills the rogue. If this doesn't happen, the rogue is doing nothing to prevent that.
A functional class cannot be replaced with a commoner who rolls high. Hence the various build in this thread that have viable range options and don't depend on flanking to do noticeable damage.
Assault Leader. Teamed up with a heavy hitter, her misses mean her flanking ally can make an immediate attack. Also, if she takes Positioning Attack, then she CAN flank the foe afterward without worrying about Attacks of Opportunity against her.
Assault leader is a pretty specific feat. Once per day, flanked opponent, a single flanking ally, you have to miss an attack yourself, it has to be melee attack from that ally, and it devours that ally's immediate action.
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20-point buy human level 1
ST 14
DX 19
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 14
CHA 7
this build tries to maximize saving throws at the expense of INT/CHA skills and the Combat Expertise line of feats. let the others do the planning and the talking, while you let your instincts guide you.
i suggest traits that grant additional WIS-based class skills.
you still get 7-8 skill points per level which is pretty good.
all physical skills will be excellent, as well as 'classic' rogue skills Disable Device and Perception, etc...
Weapon Finesse at first level, otherwise feats can vary according to taste. this is just a chassis.
plus ST 14 can carry a lot of loot.
finally i recommend daggers for their versatility.
@rainzax
What does he do when he can't flank?
What is his range option? UMD is out of the question with that 7 cha.
One of the goals is to do noticeable damage when not flanking.
Assault Leader. Teamed up with a heavy hitter, her misses mean her flanking ally can make an immediate attack. Also, if she takes Positioning Attack, then she CAN flank the foe afterward without worrying about Attacks of Opportunity against her.Assault leader is a pretty specific feat. Once per day, flanked opponent, a single flanking ally, you have to miss an attack yourself, it has to be melee attack from that ally, and it devours that ally's immediate action.
Fear not! It's a rogue talent.
Plus you are too focused on the Rogue range attacking with a bow. He could easily be hurling tanglefoot bags, or using wands/scrolls
Actually I'm not. Skill focus(UMD) + 10 or higher cha is all you need for a viable range option.
He specifically talked about shooting with a bow. Which can be easily done by a commoner who rolls high.
Isn't there already another thread still going right now about "how to make the rogue functional," that is up to hundreds of posts?
Since the rogue is functional and always has been, I see no reason for ANOTHER thread about this.
The rogue is a strategist/utility/team-player class. It functions perfectly in those roles. There is nothing wrong with not meting out a thousand points of damage per round or killing a dragon with one blow, or taking damage like a tank, or whatever you people think is wrong with the class.
Get over it.
Who are "you people"? O.o
If certain posters have said certain things then quote those posters. Don't generalize.
One of the goals is to do noticeable damage when not flanking.
I had forgotten that was one of the goals mentioned. Yeah..In that case feint or intimidation builds are needed.
There are quiet a few monsters with a high sense motives so the intimidation +strength build may be the way to go.
One of the goals is to do noticeable damage when not flanking.I had forgotten that was one of the goals mentioned. Yeah..In that case feint or intimidation builds are needed.
There are quiet a few monsters with a high sense motives so the intimidation +strength build may be the way to go.
Why don't you go ahead and post this intimidate build?
I've also seen people talking about using greater feint at range to make sneak attacks because feint doesn't have a range limit? It would be interesting if that was true.
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just a chassis. add feats and talents as you see fit.
anything other folks suggest here, aside from feinting/tripping/disarming, are good options.
climb/jump/tumble/swim? carry a longspear? carry a shortbow? alchemical stuff?
there is not much that you can do, no matter your build. ironically, part of not doing 'noticeable' damage when you aren't flanking might draw attention away from you so you can get into a flanking position. i know the 'chess' only goes so far, especially with a cunning DM, but there is really no good answer to your question. you just gotta roll with the punches.
but there is really no good answer to your question.you just gotta roll with the punches.
Various builds have shown otherwise. You don't have to make a rogue that stops functioning when they can't flank.
Well... Up to 5~6th level, Rogues work okay... They are not impressive, but they are okay. They can even use shortbows to deal with flying opponents.