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If it's the better choice, it's not subpar. Hyper-specialization is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. Unfortunately, the high risk in question is death.
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Y'know when I first said this I was like, "Maybe this is an exaggeration", but then I remembered GREATER Shadow Armor.The largest perceived disconnect comes in the form of opposed checks such as Stealth vs Perception. This is an area where splat-material can seriously hurt the game. In general, having equal opportunity to buff both sides of a contest results in a fairer situation. However, Stealth is an example of an option that can be grossly abused at high levels due to a lot of support material for it. Effects like Hellcat Stealth, size modifiers, skill modifiers, and so forth means that some enemies may be effectively invisible forever.Also known as being a bad ass Goblin. Routinely getting high 60-70s on Stealth checks at level 20. Permastealth FOREVER!
For those of you curious,
Goblin
+4 Racial
+4 Small
+23 Class Skill
+6 Skill Focus
+15 Greater Shadow Armor
+10 Dex
Stealth Check +62, if you're a Rogue you can take 10. Feats desired are Dampen Presence, Hellcat Stealth, Skill Focus(Stealth), Eldritch Heritage(Shadow Bloodline) and Improved Eldritch Heritage(Shadow Well). Acquire Boots of the Soft Step. Acquire many Scentbane Incense.
If it's the better choice, it's not subpar. Hyper-specialization is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. Unfortunately, the high risk in question is death.
Its not the better choice. Its subpar. It needs to be improved. Its subpar. Hyper-specialization can be in anything meaning your risk can be in anything.
I'm pretty sure not having enough hit points is a risk for everyone.
I'm pretty sure not having enough hit points is a risk for everyone.
Who was saying you should try not to have enough hit points? Usually by endgame you should have at least +6 enhancement to constitution. Toughness could really use an improvement. Its not the worst feat in the world, but its pretty boring.
I'm pretty sure not having enough hit points is a risk for everyone.
Not really, my high level casters consider dying 8 or so times before breakfast a "minor inconvenience".
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You've got a point there, MrSin. What I should've said is that you won't see those feats taken in theorycrafted damage output optimized builds. You could certainly make a theorycrafted build that maximized defences, but in my experience, most people want to get the most damage they can out of a character. And if you want the most damages, chances are you would put all your resources there instead of building defences and covering weak points if the choice came down to it.
So rather, the saving throw feats aren't exactly "subpar", but less favored when one is considering pure offensive builds. And therein lies why some people end up with characters that may end up succumbing to the dreaded effects of Rocket Tag.
I'm pretty sure not having enough hit points is a risk for everyone.
The only time having toughness makes a difference is if you get reduced to so few hit points you would be unconscious without toughness or if would have died without toughness. Otherwise, having 90 hit points instead of 80 doesn't have any impact. In my experience, such scenarios do happen, but are rare.
Really, toughness should have a benefit besides a purely numerical increase to hit points. Similarly, combining lightning reflexes and improved lightning reflexes into one feat would make it a more appealing option.
So rather, the saving throw feats aren't exactly "subpar", but less favored when one is considering pure offensive builds. And therein lies why some people end up with characters that may end up succumbing to the dreaded effects of Rocket Tag.
They are most definitely subpar imo. They only make a difference 10% of the time, unless you get the improved version, which unfortunately only works once a day. The number of times I've seen them actually make a difference is abysmal. Worse is the number of times I've seen the reroll fail, and hilariously I've seen it roll lower plenty of times too! Compare to 3.5's moment of perfect mind ability, which allowed martial adepts to roll a single save at roughly level + con, and was roughly a once per encounter deal. They could be vastly improved and made to look more attractive.
That said, a failed save could mean your dead, or worse your dominated and making your friends dead, neither of which are good things. So not the worst thing in the world to have a better save.
It's not the biggest bump, but it closes the gap a little. Plus, there are ioun stones that give +2 to specific saves as well. I'm on my mobile at the moment, so I don't have specifics in front of me. But these sorts of investments can help cover the gap, which is one of the things that people were complaining about earlier in the thread about high level play being "broken".
They only make a difference 10% of the time,
That's pretty good for one feat!
It's not the biggest bump, but it closes the gap a little. Plus, there are ioun stones that give +2 to specific saves as well. I'm on my mobile at the moment, so I don't have specifics in front of me. But these sorts of investments can help cover the gap, which is one of the things that people were complaining about earlier in the thread about high level play being "broken".
The problem with investments is you can only make so many and they come at the cost of something else. Its also sort of awkward to make investments to keep up rather than be ahead of everyone else. One of the big things I never liked about treadmills was working to keep up and having things presented as bonuses.
They only make a difference 10% of the time,That's pretty good for one feat!
To you maybe. To me, that's pretty awful. You could roll improved into it to make it more attractive and active, in the least.
The "only candy" version of character creation means specialization isn't meaningful. Which is a boring thing, in itself.
And that's fine, Sin. However, that's the mindset that gets a lot of people to build glass cannons. If you're too focused on improving your strengths, of course your weaknesses will fall behind. But that doesn't make the system broken when you're willing to put in the feats or gold to prevent higher level effects.
It's one thing to talk about keeping your saves up being a treadmill, but if the system automatically normalizes everything, then leveling up is... ONLY a treadmill. I get that not everyone likes to have to choose between their vegetables and candy, but that's the nature of the beast when it comes to allowing customization.
Not when compared against extra rage power (superstition) that goes from 10% to 35% (65% if you are human)They only make a difference 10% of the time,That's pretty good for one feat!
It actually looks even better compared to that, which lasts only as long as you are raging (and therefore neither before nor after) and also makes you resist friendly spells. Superstition is useful and definitely fun but I would not consider it optimal.
Not when compared against extra rage power (superstition) that goes from 10% to 35% (65% if you are human)They only make a difference 10% of the time,That's pretty good for one feat!
And people say spells are overpowered.
It's one thing to talk about keeping your saves up being a treadmill, but if the system automatically normalizes everything, then leveling up is... ONLY a treadmill. I get that not everyone likes to have to choose between their vegetables and candy, but that's the nature of the beast when it comes to allowing customization.
Actually, you can create a system that's normalized and still has variables and bonuses that allow certain things to be higher than others after the normalization*, rather than create a system that looks like it has bonuses that lead into a treadmill effect. I'd much rather have the first option than the latter myself.
That's the same thing, only slower. Eventually, at a high enough level, the specialists will inevitably get further ahead in some places and further behind in others. As i said earlier, no matter what system you use, you have to tune it for an expected "high level."
There 's a TRAIT that allows a reroll of any save once a day.
A feat, twice as powerful as a trait (one trait= 2 feats), gives a reroll to ONE SAVE, also once a day.
Tell me Improved X save isn't underpowered. Eesh. At the very least it should be ANOTHER +2 (i.e. doubling the iron will save benefit, sort of like the skill focus feats do) and the reroll.
==Aelryinth
That's the same thing, only slower. Eventually, at a high enough level, the specialists will inevitably get further ahead in some places and further behind in others. As i said earlier, no matter what system you use, you have to tune it for an expected "high level."
Not quiet the same thing. In the suggested system you have your level to saves and your saving throw acts as a type of AC vs. spells, which happen to go up at the same rate. The variables are your modifiers from attribute and feats. The current system is roughly 2+1/2lvl for strong saves and 0+1/3 level for weak saves vs DCs that are roughly 1/2 level rounded up. In the suggested system You also have a small amount of choice in which attribute goes into your save, helping you fight against the specialized casters. You don't end up with nearly the disparity. The important thing was the disparity.
A fighter with traits courageous and birthmark, and the feat iron will will effectively have a +4 to all will saves. This brings his final total within 2 of a full save progression. Guess what? His saving throw is still crap because half of a good will save comes from wisdom modifier.
Likewise wizards also have a crap will save. Thankfully there exist a fist level spells that block most of the worst will-save or lose spells.
trait bonuses does not stack.
YEP. That's why both traits give a +2 bonus to different saving throws. One is for fear, the other is for charm and compulsion effects.
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I do agree, the Improved save feats could be better. I could've sworn they gave a bonus on top of the save feats. Though, I could have been thinking of the Mythic versions.
Besides, the game doesn't need everyone to have the same saves. Making them more similar can be done, though. It takes a bit of investment, but it is an option. And therein, it fixes the problem of poor defense.
Likewise wizards also have a crap will save.So, what I am reading is that wizards, sorcerers, oracles, magus, bards, alchemist, withces all have crap saves?
Because adding the rogue, fighter and cavalier those are half of the class in the game.
Maybe he's assuming the casters are dumping WIS.
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It's one thing to talk about keeping your saves up being a treadmill, but if the system automatically normalizes everything, then leveling up is... ONLY a treadmill. I get that not everyone likes to have to choose between their vegetables and candy, but that's the nature of the beast when it comes to allowing customization.
This.
The system allows you to build a 20th level melee character who the BBEG can only miss on a roll of 1 and a 20th level melee character who the BBEG can only hit on a roll of 20. It also allows you to build a very large number of things in-between, with all the variation that implies in abilities, tactics, strategies, and narrative options for the DM and players alike. After all, if the system allowed for virtually no customization, not only would you get RJs treadmill over the life of the class (the numbers get bigger, but nothing ever changes about how the class plays), but all characters of the same class would always follow the same tactics because they would all be running on the same treadmill.
Does that mean you get both parties of "balanced" characters who will take four rounds to kill the BBEG in a straight-up fight but who will have a decent chance of surviving even if ambushed and parties of "glass cannons" that can take out the BBEG in one round in a straight-up fight but have a very high probability of being TPK'd if ambushed? Sure. And that's just fine. The different groups have chosen different strategies for dealing with risks and rewards, and neither of those choices is badwrongfun. (On a side note, you can have parties of "RP heavy" characters who accept the risks of being either not well-balanced or well-optimized for combat, and who might struggle with killing the BBEG in eight rounds and be lucky to survive an ambush at all, and as long as that's their choice, it isn't badwrongfun either.)
In other words, the wide variety of choices allow for a wide variety of playstyles, and there's inherently no badwrongfun way to build characters or play the game unless you aren't, you know, actually having fun.
P.S. Having said that, there are some things I would change about the mechanics of the game, but I don't think anything I would like to see changed would eliminate the option to play "rocket tag".
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It's one thing to talk about keeping your saves up being a treadmill, but if the system automatically normalizes everything, then leveling up is... ONLY a treadmill. I get that not everyone likes to have to choose between their vegetables and candy, but that's the nature of the beast when it comes to allowing customization.This.
The system allows you to build a 20th level melee character who the BBEG can only miss on a roll of 1 and a 20th level melee character who the BBEG can only hit on a roll of 20. It also allows you to build a very large number of things in-between, with all the variation that implies in abilities, tactics, strategies, and narrative options for the DM and players alike. After all, if the system allowed for virtually no customization, not only would you get RJs treadmill over the life of the class (the numbers get bigger, but nothing ever changes about how the class plays), but all characters of the same class would always follow the same tactics because they would all be running on the same treadmill.
Does that mean you get both parties of "balanced" characters who will take four rounds to kill the BBEG in a straight-up fight but who will have a decent chance of surviving even if ambushed and parties of "glass cannons" that can take out the BBEG in one round in a straight-up fight but have a very high probability of being TPK'd if ambushed? Sure. And that's just fine. The different groups have chosen different strategies for dealing with risks and rewards, and neither of those choices is badwrongfun. (On a side note, you can have parties of "RP heavy" characters who accept the risks of being either not well-balanced or well-optimized for combat, and who might struggle with killing the BBEG in eight rounds and be lucky to survive an ambush at all, and as long as that's their choice, it isn't badwrongfun either.)
In other words, the wide variety of choices allow for a wide variety of playstyles, and there's inherently no...
If I could get a GM like you. Some people are so against high level play, it hurts. I can't say how much I'd want just someone a bit open to the viability and possibility of options in play.
Maybe he's assuming the casters are dumping WIS.Likewise wizards also have a crap will save.So, what I am reading is that wizards, sorcerers, oracles, magus, bards, alchemist, withces all have crap saves?
Because adding the rogue, fighter and cavalier those are half of the class in the game.
I assume they aren't putting in more than 10.
Optimized fighter will save at 20 is +18(+23 vs fear)
Wizard will save at 20 is +20
If the average save is 32 their both not in a good place. Now a Balor's dominate monster DC is only 27. Which makes them both look better.
Those numbers don't look too shabby. I'm not sure how you're getting all of them, though. If it does check out alright, it would lend credence towards a balance between good and bad saves.
I'm just curious what exactly you mean by optimized other than going in a feat and maybe a trait.
Final saves at 20 for fighter assuming +6 stat item and +5 cloak of resistance
+22 Fort, +16 Will, +16 Ref (+2 vs charm and compulsion effects, +7 vs fear effects)
Now I present Cleric/druid will save = +27
I'm just curious what exactly you mean by optimized other than going in a feat and maybe a trait.
Investing both traits into will saves and taking iron will. I'm not assuming anyone else is doing that.
If it's the better choice, it's not subpar. Hyper-specialization is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. Unfortunately, the high risk in question is death.Its not the better choice. Its subpar. It needs to be improved. Its subpar. Hyper-specialization can be in anything meaning your risk can be in anything.
Saying it twice doesn't make it so.
Now, saying it thrice does:
It's not subpar, It's not subpar, It's not subpar. ;-)
By 20th level, everyone should have a +5 inherent modifier to all their ability scores because planar binding is a thing..
It *IS* certainly a "thing" but no DM I know would let a wizard get away with than many castings of it.
She's not assuming unlimited castings. She's assuming you bind two efreet and every day grab 5 wishes off the two of them until everyone has +5 Inherents.
this does ignore the fact that genies know perfectly well the value of their wishes, and really, really resent mortals getting them off them for nothing. You could negotiate and swap the fact you could wish as the genie directs things, but now you're into uncharted territory.
Furthermore, if you allow this, then you need to allow this for basically any NPC above level 11. +5 to all stats, thank you.
The standard rules assume this is NOT permissible. You'd have to compensate the genie for 25k for wish, at a minimimum, for it to be a reasonable exchange. Without that, you've got exploitation, and the genies are probably going to come down on you for it.
==Aelryinth
I have never used an inherent bonus on a character and don't believe I ever would.
I assume at least a +1-2 to the main stat by level 20.
I have never used an inherent bonus on a character and don't believe I ever would.
Are you sure about that? It seems a bit extreme. Characters naturally get a +1 inherent bonus to one score at every four levels, you know. On top of which, the Pit-Touched bloodline allows an inherent bonus starting at level 9.
By 20th level, everyone should have a +5 inherent modifier to all their ability scores because planar binding is a thing..It *IS* certainly a "thing" but no DM I know would let a wizard get away with than many castings of it.
It's not a thing, because it doesn't work not even once.
I hardly think Paragon Surge abuse is going to break ANY class.
Keep in mind there's a minimum one round delay before you get what you want.
It also doesn't stack. The second Paragon Surge will overwrite and wipe the first one.
One spell with a two round delay isn't going to overpower anything. The best use I can see of it is in crafting, where you can always have the appropriate spell on hand. Note that you can't cross-school make scrolls, because divine casters can't make arcane scrolls.
Also, the DM is perfectly within his rights to rule that the first spell you grab when you pick Improved Eldritch Heritage is the one you ALWAYS get when you Paragon Surge and pick that feat, in effect you are setting the extra spell you get...which is how I'd rule it, of course, just to stop any shenanigans.
==Aelryinth
I have never used an inherent bonus on a character and don't believe I ever would.Are you sure about that? It seems a bit extreme. Characters naturally get a +1 inherent bonus to one score at every four levels, you know. On top of which, the Pit-Touched bloodline allows an inherent bonus starting at level 9.
Inherent bonuses are gained only from magic tomes and wish spells.
The stat increases PC's get every 4 levels are untyped.
==Aelryinth
I have never used an inherent bonus on a character and don't believe I ever would.Are you sure about that? It seems a bit extreme. Characters naturally get a +1 inherent bonus to one score at every four levels, you know. On top of which, the Pit-Touched bloodline allows an inherent bonus starting at level 9.Inherent bonuses are gained only from magic tomes and wish spells.
The stat increases PC's get every 4 levels are untyped.
==Aelryinth
Granted, though there are a few other sources.
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Inherent bonuses are gained only from magic tomes and wish spells.
The stat increases PC's get every 4 levels are untyped.
==Aelryinth
There's a few other ways to get inherent bonuses. The bonus to Int the lore oracle can get is inherent. So's the bonus to strength the abyssal bloodline sorcerer.