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A post over on BGG concerning the Collapsed Ceiling came up that made me come here seeking clarification on Collapsed Ceiling.
The post can be found here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1085271/collapsed-ceiling-second-explor ation
The short of it...
A person asks if the second explore, when faced with a Collapsed Ceiling, can be the next card down.
Of course, the first response in the thread is 'no' as the rules state to explore, you deal with the top card.
However, my response chimes in on something that's been said before that the cards do what they say and cards override the rules, and Collapsed Ceiling specifically says characters encounter it as the first explore when faced with it. And so I believe that it is faced as the first explore and only the first explore, since it specifically says first explore.
So my question is (multipart separated to ask both parts of the question):
Is the wording about it being encountered as the first explore actually extra wording that should have been removed, thus making it be encountered at every explore when faced with it?
As in: "We were trapped on both sides when the ceiling collapsed and had to work to dig ourselves out."
Or is the text actually a clarification for it that it is ONLY encountered during the first explore when faced with it and all explores on the same turn beyond that actually deal with the cards beneath it?
As in: "We were trapped from the exit when the ceiling collapsed and the stones weren't quite loose enough for us to quickly dig our way out, so we turned around and decided to explore the area further."
When we say "Characters at this location encounter this barrier as their first exploration each turn," that's what we mean. Your second and subsequent explorations will be with other cards, at least until you run out of cards.
Thank you for the response, Mike. I had assumed the card meant for itself to be taken literally, but there's a few instances in the game where text made it on the cards that isn't really necessary and seems to be there just to reference, thus why we needed the clarification.
In response to csouth, I'd assume, based on the same information as given, that you can only encounter Collapsed Ceiling through normal explores during your first encounter and all further normal explores would end up with you dealing with other stuff beneath it. However, if you had a card that allows you to specifically deal with the top card of the deck, then that card would let you encounter the Collapsed Ceiling, since the new card is just worried about the top card, which just happens to be Collapsed Ceiling.
This conversation has pointed out a couple of issues that we're looking at. Stay tuned.
We ran into our first collapsed ceiling on Monday and had ourselves a situation. My buddy had gotten stuck by the collapsed ceiling and I was at another location. On my turn I flipped over the villain. My buddy failed to temp close his location and I failed to defeat the villain. We didn't know if we were suppose to shuffle the collapsed ceiling back into the deck or leave it face up on top. Then we discussed what would happen if he cast augury and named barriers?
We left the collapsed ceiling face up on top of the deck as we shuffled blessings and the villain into the open locations. We didn't actually have augury at the time to make our own ruling on it.
I think the Collapsed Ceiling ("CC") card text trumps the rules.
So CC would always have to stay face up on top of the location deck.
If a villain is defeated then the cards under the CC would be shuffled with the villain/blessing but you'd then put CC back on top.
Similarly, if you cast Augury then CC would have to stay on top. It seems more "cannot" than Augury so I'd say it wins.
Of course, I could be horribly wrong on both counts...!
I think the Collapsed Ceiling ("CC") card text trumps the rules.
So CC would always have to stay face up on top of the location deck.
If a villain is defeated then the cards under the CC would be shuffled with the villain/blessing but you'd then put CC back on top.
Similarly, if you cast Augury then CC would have to stay on top. It seems more "cannot" than Augury so I'd say it wins.
Of course, I could be horribly wrong on both counts...!
I would agree with that as well. It doesn't make sense you'd escape the collapsed ceiling just because the villain came into the location. And I think Mike's clarification above that you can explore beyond the collapsed ceiling fits with this.
I'd say if you played Augury, you could examine the next 3 cards in the location after collapsed ceiling. But until collapsed ceiling is defeated, it stays on top.
What about mersiel being at that location but not being the one who had originally encountered collapsed ceiling? Could she evade collapsed ceiling? I'd think not, since thematically the ceiling is already collapsed.
Maybe better wording for it would be something like "If undefeated place this card next to the location card. Every character's first exploration at this location must be the check to defeat this card. It can not be evaded. A character who is able may then explore the rest of the location deck on his turn."
@Hawkmoon, I read things slightly differently here...
I'd say Augury looks at CC and the next TWO cards in the location deck (since CC is the deck's first/top card).
I see no reason why Merisiel (or any other character) cannot evade CC when she encounters it. She's a slippery thief so I'm sure she can find a crack to squeeze through in search of greater trouble beyond!
You may very well be right. Though I think as long as CC is kept on top, it won't make too much difference. I personally didn't like the idea of evading it since evading means shuffle the evaded card back into the location deck. Though it doesn't say it can't be evaded, so i guess i could be persuaded to let that happen.
Of course, Merisiel is being a jerk to her teammates if she isn't using her awesome acrobatics to try to take care of this.
I'm personally visualizing this as the collapsed ceiling is all around. On your free exploration you try to find an escape. If you can't you can decide at least to dig around in the rubble around you. Maybe you find a monster or item buried in there too. Heck maybe you even find some explosive runes that go off in your face when you dig them up.
And given the other post you just had about Medusa Mask, we can at least clarify that if you defeated the henchmen, but failed the closing requirement, you couldn't close the location until CC was finally defeated.
I kind feel this is sort of like Medusa Mask "phasing" something out of the deck. Once its face up Collapsed Ceiling is part of the deck, but is also not part of the deck in one sense. Its still part of the location, but I've treated more like it became an "at this location" rule on the location card. I think it even says "at this location" on it.
But hopefully a clarification will be issued soon. In the meantime we can all agree that repeatedly failing collapsed ceiling is a very frustrating experience.
Chief Technical Officer
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It says if it's undefeated, leave it faceup on the deck. So until it's no longer undefeated, leave it faceup on the deck, even if you have to shuffle the deck in the meantime. It is still part of the location deck, though.
Also, it does use the word encounter, and that means you do have an opportunity to evade it. And since evaded cards are neither defeated nor undefeated, if you evade it, you no longer have to keep it faceup on the deck, so you can shuffle it in. (Not only is Merisiel finding a sneaky way around the rubble, but she's letting everyone know.)
What does need clarification is how you deal with your *second* exploration on a turn. Mike says that his intention is that you set it aside and explore the next card, but there are no words that actually say that yet. (We have to deal with this one carefully, because there are several cards in Skull & Shackles that work similarly.)
Not only is Merisiel finding a sneaky way around the rubble, but she's letting everyone know.
And here I was speaking ill of her when she only had her teammates best interests at heart.
Thanks for the clarification. It is much appreciated.
Thanks Vic for clearing up most of everything, still have one question here; If the card is face up on top of the deck and it is still considered part of the location deck, when you examine the top cards of a location deck with say spyglass (or augury) and you put the cards back in any order, can you not put the collapsed ceiling on the top face up? Or do you not even look at collapsed ceiling and instead look at the next two cards. In the case of augury, can you name barriers and move the card?
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Chief Technical Officer
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As long as it's undefeated, you have to leave it faceup on the deck, and it counts as the top card.
As far as Augury goes, if you like, you can choose "barrier", set aside any other barriers in the top 3, return the non-barriers and shuffle, then put the other barriers in any order you like at the top or bottom... but when you're done with that, the Collapsed Ceiling still has to be left on the top, faceup.
@bidmaron - yes, they would be wasted since they'd just look at the top card. Which is the CC.
I understand how it's supposed to be handled according to Mike/Vic, but it still just doesn't sit right with me.
Saying that characters "encounter this barrier as their first exploration each turn" (Collapsed Ceiling card text) does not say anything about their second or later exploration. If this is still the top card after your first exploration, then I would think that your second explore (which is not being modified by any card text: "things don't do what they don't say") would have to follow normal rules, which means you would only be able to target the top card (the barrier). This is how I understood and played it before this thread.
If the face-up CC is truly the top card of the encounter deck, then I would think any reference to the top X cards of this location would include the CC, which includes Detect Evil/Magic, Augury, and of course Explore. However, if the card was placed beside the location deck or card and was only technically in the location (for closing purposes, similar to how the Medusa Mask phases out a monster), then it would make more sense to me. Your first explore would be dictated by the CC, but you'd be otherwise free to explore/examine/etc the rest of the deck.
Actually, if read literally, "flip over the top card of your current location deck" (rulebook, under Your Turn > Explore) could be taken as flipping a face-up card face-down again. While I agree this is likely not the intent, the "things do what they say" meta-rule comes to mind. Thematically, I could see this as exploring the rubble and finding a way out (similar to how Merisiel can evade it, but at the cost of a second explore).
So in this case, the text on the face-up CC would would require you to encounter it for your first explore, but I see no reason why your second exploration couldn't be the act of flipping it back over, other than the "if it's a boon/bane" text afterwards. Would a face-down that you know to be a barrier still count as a bane for this purpose?
Remember though that cards override the rulebook. This card says you encounter it instead of flipping over the top card like the rulebook instructed you.
CC says that while it is undefeated, it stays face up on top. But it is still the first card in the location deck.
Because its still the top card, examine cards like Spyglass, Augury, Detect Magic, and Detect Evil, would all examine it (and maybe additional cards). But none of those cards can change its status of being undefeated, so it stays on top face up.
If I were to change what I suggested early, I'd say something more like this now:
"If undefeated place this card face up on top of the location deck. Every character at this location encounters this card as their first exploration on their turn. A character who is able may then explore the rest of the location deck on his turn, but for card effect this card is always treated as the top card of the location deck."
Mike did say that they were working on something and to stay tuned. So lets see what he says.
Saying that characters "encounter this barrier as their first exploration each turn" (Collapsed Ceiling card text) does not say anything about their second or later exploration. If this is still the top card after your first exploration, then I would think that your second explore (which is not being modified by any card text: "things don't do what they don't say") would have to follow normal rules, which means you would only be able to target the top card (the barrier). This is how I understood and played it before this thread.
This is what I thought too until I was recently enlightened. I guess there really isn't enough space on the cards to explain what they do.
(Which is why I keep suggesting that this game needs an (official) wiki so that you can quickly look up any card and find FAQ/Errata, explanations, back-story and people's opinions on any given cards. I think it needs to be official, though, otherwise you wouldn't be able to publish the card text which would make the wiki kind of pointless... otherwise I might be tempted to start one myself. Maybe. In my spare time (ha!))
Remember though that cards override the rulebook. This card says you encounter it instead of flipping over the top card like the rulebook instructed you.
Yes, I do remember that. However, as I pointed out, the card says nothing about any explore other than your first. It does not say that your subsequent explores can bypass the "top card" restriction on explores.
Maybe I should rephrase my objection: Why can we bypass it on subsequent explores if no other power can bypass it? It's either the top card or it's not, in which case any power that targets the top card should target it, including explore.
EXAMPLE TURN (Collapsed Ceiling is top card of current location)
Move: Can't move
-> The CC says that my first exploration must be that card.
Explore: Encounter CC; undefeated, it stays face-up
Discard Blessing
-> Is there any active power/rule saying that on my second explore I can reveal/encounter anything other than the top card of my location? Does it say I can flip the next card? a middle card? the bottom card? No, none of these. So I assume I have to encounter the top card in the deck (which is the CC).
Explore: Encounter CC again
And actually, while I'm nit-picking... :) The CC card also doesn't specify that it must remain face-up until it is defeated. It only describes what happens when it is undefeated and how it affects character turns while it is face-up; it says nothing (at least to me) about what can/cannot happen to the card between such events. It doesn't say that it cannot be shuffled back into the deck by X means (Augury, Villain escaping, etc).
And again, I understand how it's supposed to work, as explained earlier in this thread, and I realize Mike has yet to come back with his response. I'm just pointing the issues/inconsistencies I hope to see addressed.
Sorry, we've been distracted by getting Skull & Shackles off to playtest. There are a lot of cards in S&S that depend on the outcome of this conversation (both here and internally), so I'm holding off until I see some of those cards in testing. We need to get this right for the future as well as for now.
For now, play by the following sequence:
You encounter Collapsed Ceiling.
You don't defeat it.
It stays on the location deck.
On your next turn, you encounter it.
Then, if you explore again, put it to the side, and you encounter another card.
At the end of the explore step, if you didn't defeat it, put it back on the deck.
If you Augury or otherwise examine the top cards of the deck, count the Collapsed Ceiling as the first one of those cards.
If you evade or otherwise shuffle the deck, don't shuffle the Collapsed Ceiling in the deck.
This may not hold up in all aspects, but for now, that's how you should play it. Vic will certainly have a ruling sometime down the road on this.
Mike
@Mike - if, for some reason, you WANT to encounter the CC again (e.g. if you narrowly fail the first check to defeat it but can generate another explore and want to have another go) can you choose to encounter it again or *must* you then go to the next card in the location deck?
Let's say no for now. Like I said, there's a strong likelihood this template is changing.
OK. Will keep eyes peeled.
I'm glad that my inquiry sparked some interesting thought processes. Who said you had to be in the playtest to bring about change?!
Though, I'd love to be in the playtest, lol, sadly, though, there's no local contact for it. Alas, East TN, why must you be so far away from the world?
Another question that I just thought about concerning this. Since you cannot choose to deal with Collapsed Ceiling beyond the first explore, what happens if you end up with Collapsed Ceiling being the last card in the deck faceup? Your first explore has to deal with it, of course. Beyond that, though, are you unable to explore anymore since the 'rest of the cards' don't exist?
Also, if a Henchman or Villain is encountered and the location ends up being closed, does Collapsed Ceiling get banished since it is still a card in the deck, or does it's own effect (since it was undefeated upon its last encounter) take priority over the rules in the book that say banish the cards in the location when closing, so instead of being banished, it still ends up as a face-up card in that location, but the location is closed? Or is the location not closed since there's still a card left after being closed?
(the following isn't asking for an actual answer for the most part, it's more to help with the thought process and troubleshooting that the Devs and playtesters are going to have to go through)
Though, something just occurred to me concerning this, since it sounds like some of the cards in the next AP are going to have effects related to this: what will happen when more than one of those cards comes into effect at the same time. There can be only one 'top card' and so multiple cards (especially considering how CC is working right now in that you encounter cards beneath it after the first encounter) can end up trying to take effect at the same time.
For example, suppose that for whatever reason, there were two Collapsed Ceilings in the game, and both ended up in the same location. One is encountered and is undefeated, so it ends up on top of the deck, face up.
Then another explore is taken, which deals with the next card down which is just so happens to be another Collapsed Ceiling. And WHAM, the check to defeat it is failed, and now, there are two Collapsed Ceilings... face up on the top of the deck. Two 'top card' cards that 'must be encountered' as the first explore on a character's turn.
Now lets say one of the Collapsed Ceilings was instead another card that we haven't experienced yet, but has the same 'leave on top face up and encounter as first encounter' mechanic. This card and Collapsed Ceiling are now on top of the deck and must be encountered as the first explore. Which one is done first? Are they combined in some way? Is the 'must be encountered first' nullified on the second card since it can no longer be encountered first, and thus all subsequent explores do as we we're currently doing with CC, and deal with the other cards in the deck?
What happens if a third or fourth of this card type are encountered and subsequent checks are failed?
I'm not asking for actual answers for the above hypotheticals yet, I'm just wanting to bring them up to assist in trying to figure out how to best word the cards and effects and make everything work together cohesively.
My 2c on this...
1) if it's the last card in the deck then you probably *can* reach it with extra explores.
2) closing the location will get rid of the CC
3) If there are lots of these then you set the order. The first explore hits the first one, the second explore the second one, and so on.
Been a long time with no update on this thread (maybe it was handled somewhere else).
In any case, another interesting take on the wording of the card:
Since it says "...encounter this barrier as their first exploration each turn...", I take this to mean you can choose NOT to explore on your turn and therefore not encounter it.
It kind of got answered in the Skull and Shackles rulebook (and tweaked by an FAQ).
RULES: FACEUP CARDS
Sometimes a card is left faceup on the top of the location deck (for example, most barriers with the Task trait work this way). The card is still in the deck, but it can only be shuffled into the deck when the condition that caused it to be left faceup on the deck has been resolved. If such a card tells you that you must encounter it on your first exploration on a turn, then you must encounter it the first time you explore that turn. After that exploration, ignore it for the purpose of additional explorations that turn; however, it still counts as the top card of the deck for any other purpose. If multiple cards are left faceup on the same deck, you may place them in any order and encounter them in that order.
So, you can't explore/encounter it twice (which was the old question). It still counts as part of the location so it is banished when closed. And you set the order when you first leave them faceup. (The FAQ part covers the multiple explorations with multiple faceup cards.)
And yes, if you choose to not explore you don't encounter it.
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Been a long time with no update on this thread (maybe it was handled somewhere else).
In any case, another interesting take on the wording of the card:
Since it says "...encounter this barrier as their first exploration each turn...", I take this to mean you can choose NOT to explore on your turn and therefore not encounter it.
That is correct. If you don't explore, then there is no "first explore".
Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that you had to explore.
I think a face-up card on top of a location deck remains the top card of the location deck, even if you add cards to the deck. (The only thing that would change this, besides defeating the barrier, would be if another card was added face-up to the top of the deck. Then you decide the order.) I would put the monster generated by the Warrens under the Collapsed Ceiling. The first card examined by any examine power should be the Collapsed Ceiling.
One reason I say this is, I think it would be confusing and counter-intuitive not to encounter the top card of the deck on your first exploration.
See this FAQ. The monster would go under Collapsed Ceiling.