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I remember there are rules for how loud or noticeable casting is. But I can’t seem to find it in the PRD (unless I’m just skipping right past it) and my books are in another state.
We are having some disagreements on how to handle things like:
Quietly casting in the room next door to someone you don’t want to know you are using magic.
Casting buff/summon/divination spells with people standing in the way so you can’t easily be observed.
Etc…
Can one of you run these down or point me to the rules with a link?
Thanks Muchly!
The search feature is your friend. Use it to find threads like these.
I didn't think of searching the threads, I was trying to search the PRD.
Thanks.
There is no specific rule for how many decibels are required for a verbal component. You just need to use a strong voice:
A spell's components explain what you must do or possess to cast the spell. The components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it requires. Specifics for material and focus components are given at the end of the descriptive text. Usually you don't need to worry about components, but when you can't use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important.
Verbal (V)
A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.
The Perception skill has a DC to hear the details of a conversation (DC 0) and to hear a whispered conversation (DC 15). Clearly, a strong voice is not a whisper. Arguably, hearing a strong voice can be comparable to hearing the details of a conversation. This means that when you use a verbal component, anyone can hear you with a DC 0 Perception check.
So "Quietly casting in the room next door" means your neighbor has a DC of about 10 (the penalty for a wall less than one foot thick) plus distance modifiers of +1 per 10' feet, so if you're both in the center of a 10'x10' room, the DC is 11. Not hard for him to hear you.
It's even worse if you just have a friend standing in the way - people don't block sound that well, so the only factor is distance. DC 0 + 1 per 10'.
If you really want to be able to cast without being heard, better look into the Silent Spell feat.
Well, the people standing in the way wasn't really to be unheard as much as un-noticed.
That came up when the group was in a crowded street. They were discussing having the 4 other guys in the group stand around the caster who was going to summon an elemental. In a crowded area, you hear some nonsense. But if you are not a caster you wouldn't know what it means. Then suddenly an air elemental is picking people up. Would the crowd know who did it and lynch him (or at least point him out to the constables)?
That was the point of having people standing around him. To somewhat obscure him from view.
Just because you see a hand moving every so often behind someone else and hear someone somewhere say something you didn't understand, would you assume the guy you couldn't see clearly summoned the monster down on the crowd?
Not saying it is correct, but that was the reasoning.
The baseline is something akin to Schmendrick when he becomes a "real magician". Clear, loud, and dramatic intonation accompanied by free gestures.
Clearly, a strong voice is not a whisper.
I have, am, and always will refute this statement.
It is certainly possible to whisper strongly.
I put forth the idea that said passage simply means you cannot stutter, be tongue-tied, or otherwise unsure in your speech (such as when gagged, coughing, or otherwise impeded in one's speech).
Clearly, a strong voice is not a whisper.I have, am, and always will refute this statement.
It is certainly possible to whisper strongly.
I put forth the idea that said passage simply means you cannot stutter, be tongue-tied, or otherwise unsure in your speech (such as when gagged, coughing, or otherwise impeded in one's speech).
I agree with this assessment.
To cast Wall of Force:
YOU SHALL NOT PASS! <-- That loud. Sorry couldn't help it. Listening to LOTR sound track as I type this. :)
Clearly, a strong voice is not a whisper.I have, am, and always will refute this statement.
It is certainly possible to whisper strongly.
I put forth the idea that said passage simply means you cannot stutter, be tongue-tied, or otherwise unsure in your speech (such as when gagged, coughing, or otherwise impeded in one's speech).
I put this in the other thread that just got necro'd, but it's relevant here, too.
The FAQ on the Witch's Cackle came out after this thread, so these responses all predate that clarification. That answer makes it pretty clear that the Developers did indeed intend that "strong" and/or "firm" refer to volume, at least to some degree.
Witch, Cackle Hex: Does my character literally have to cackle madly when I use this hex, or is that just flavor text?
Your character actually has to cackle—probably in a strong voice, akin to the volume and clarity necessary for verbal spell components.
It says you must be able to speak strongly. It doesn't say you have to do so.
School illusion (figment); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, F (parchment rolled into cone)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect intelligible sound, usually speech
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance no
[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION
You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it)
Plus a sound proof container...(or without)
The best part is that if someone hears it or recognizes it as an illusion they still don't know who the caster is, they just know that its magic sound :D
It's level 1 so a magic item should be cheap so you can activate it without being obvious
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It says you must be able to speak strongly. It doesn't say you have to do so.
: /
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Clearly, a strong voice is not a whisper.I have, am, and always will refute this statement.
It is certainly possible to whisper strongly.
I put forth the idea that said passage simply means you cannot stutter, be tongue-tied, or otherwise unsure in your speech (such as when gagged, coughing, or otherwise impeded in one's speech).
No. I have been told by countless people, for untold years, that I have "a strong voice."
They mean I project. To some, I am considered "too loud."
A "strong voice" are not accidental words they put together to open up all sorts of interpretation. "Strong voice" is a common colloquialism for "loud" or "forceful" or "projected" voice.
I never really found the rules clear on this one. I personally don't read "strong voice" as being synonymous with volume since it seems able to be interpreted as clarity as well.
Interpreting spellcasting as requiring a particular volume also has important implications. Many wizards are portrayed as being quite elderly and would probably not have as loud a voice as a young apprentice. Halflings and pixies most likely have quieter voices than larger creatures, particularly something like a dragon.
When you look at various media sources based on D&D they tend to vary quite a bit as well. Baldurs gate tended to have fairly loud casting, whereas the Elemental Might had much more spoken levels of incantation.
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Clearly, a strong voice is not a whisper.I have, am, and always will refute this statement.
It is certainly possible to whisper strongly.
I put forth the idea that said passage simply means you cannot stutter, be tongue-tied, or otherwise unsure in your speech (such as when gagged, coughing, or otherwise impeded in one's speech).
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion.
However, I posit that if your interpretation is what the authors meant, then they would have said "You must be able to speak clearly, however, a whisper would suffice."
They did not say any such thing.
Why in the world would they state, repeatedly, in both the Combat and Magic chapters that you must be able to speak in a strong voice if all they really meant was that you must be able to whisper articulately?
I don't buy it.
Casting spells is a flashy affair, dampening your spoken words and movements is not unlikely to mess with the spell a bit.
In my games I have the caster attempt a Stealth test with a -10 penalty, he can reduce the penalty to -5 if he´s willing to attempt a cast defensively check.
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I have to say that speaking in strong and firm voice seems fairly normal and obvious logical choice for spells to work. Each time that I hear people saying that it's possible to speak silently it seems to me that they are getting a free Silent Spell metamagic feat which was specifically designed for this.
Out of combat there is variety of ways to keep your distance far enough and cast spells silently enough. Heck, every BBEG spellcaster is doing it before they challenge a party. Usually the distance is far enough in these cases and at the worst case, it would be DC 10 + 1/10 ft. Perception check to hear it through a closed door without any other objects blocking the path.
Malag
It says you must be able to speak strongly. It doesn't say you have to do so.
haha. That's a VERY generous interpretation.
I don't buy it.
Same here. It seems pretty clear that the idea was they didn't want wizards regularly casting spells stealthily.
I'm going to go with the general consensuses here. I think I will use the treat at least as loud as spoken conversation (DC=0). I don't see that I can necessarily justify saying it is significantly louder than that for the DC of -5 or -10 though.
Few of my PC's will probably ever take the silent spell feat. But I think it might be worth the lesser rod of silence to get off a buff or summons prior to opening the door.
Not sure what to do about the obscured casting in a crowd though. But that hasn't come up since that one time.
It says you must be able to speak strongly. It doesn't say you have to do so....Are you being serious? That's like saying my fighter just needs to be able to wear armor but doesn't actually have to in order to get the benefits... By the same logic, the dragon only has to be able to be slain, or the quest only has to be able to be completed.
Not really, no. You must have the capability to speak strongly; not gagged, not silenced, not muffled. This is more akin to 'you are ABLE to wear heavy armor, but can wear light if you prefer'.
How about we stop arguing, and start clicking the FAQ button? Because I don't think we're going to reach a consensus among ourselves, and this does get asked often enough.
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I think the most compelling reason for requiring a fairly loud voice is not to intrude on silent spell, which requires a feat and level bump on the spell.
(Darn, too late to edit.)
So, answer me this ... why does it say 'you must be able to speak in a strong voice' instead of just 'you must speak in a strong voice'?
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(Darn, too late to edit.)
So, answer me this ... why does it say 'you must be able to speak in a strong voice' instead of just 'you must speak in a strong voice'?
By saying it that way, it covers both what I'm saying (that you must speak in a strong voice) and what you're saying (that you cannot be gagged, silenced, or muffled). If they only said "you must speak in a strong voice" then we would have frequent debates on the forums with people saying that a Silence spell shouldn't stop them from casting - after all, they're still speaking in a strong voice regardless of whether the Silence prevents others from hearing it. Etc.
Their wording makes it clear that you must be ABLE to speak in a strong voice AND you must ACTUALLY do so.
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It says you must be able to speak strongly. It doesn't say you have to do so.
Weak. The Silent Spell feat exists. The clear intention of it is to enable casting a spell without making a sound. Trying to cast a spell "without making much noise" any other way is a "creative rules interpretation", at best. I will not FAQ this thread. The answer is so clear that it doesn't need to be stated and I suspect that I'm not alone in this thinking.
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How about we stop arguing, and start clicking the FAQ button? Because I don't think we're going to reach a consensus among ourselves, and this does get asked often enough.
I doubt they would waste their time with such a spurious FAQ.
I put this in the other thread that just got necro'd, but it's relevant here, too.
The FAQ on the Witch's Cackle came out after this thread, so these responses all predate that clarification. That answer makes it pretty clear that the Developers did indeed intend that "strong" and/or "firm" refer to volume, at least to some degree.
Witch, Cackle Hex: Does my character literally have to cackle madly when I use this hex, or is that just flavor text?
Your character actually has to cackle—probably in a strong voice, akin to the volume and clarity necessary for verbal spell components.
Does anybody who disagrees with the "Strong = Volume" camp have a response to this? The Cackle FAQ was issued pretty much in response to an identical question - Does a Witch actually have to cackle audibly to make use of Cackle - and the response was "Yes, generally with the same volume used when casting a spell with verbal spell components."
I honestly can't see there still being a question to answer. But if someone can present a strong argument otherwise, I'm all ears.
It says you must be able to speak strongly. It doesn't say you have to do so.Weak. The Silent Spell feat exists. The clear intention of it is to enable casting a spell without making a sound. Trying to cast a spell "without making much noise" any other way is a "creative rules interpretation", at best. I will not FAQ this thread. The answer is so clear that it doesn't need to be stated and I suspect that I'm not alone in this thinking.
This isn't the same as Silent Spell at all. You still must make sound to cast it; if gagged or Silenced (the spell), you're still hosed. This just means you don't have to shout 'LOOK AT ME, I'M CASTING A SPELL'.
The definition of whisper is: "speak very softly using one's breath without one's vocal cords, esp. for the sake of privacy".
The definition of 'strong voice' is: "a voice intense in quality; not faint or feeble".
A whisper, by its definition, is faint. A strong voice, by its definition, is not.
I might agree that you could cast spells with vocal components using a stage whisper, but a stage whisper is not the same thing as a whisper, despite its name; it is a spoken phrase that, while still breathy, is intentionally pitched at normal speaking volume and is intended to be heard by others.
The Cackle Hex ruling implies (very clearly, to me) that spells that have vocal components and\or Sus and SLAs that specify vocalization in their 'fluff' must be performed audibly, and in some specific cases like Cackle must also be audible to the target in order to be effective.
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@Zhayne
There is plentora of feats that disguise casting. Again, trying to silently speak a spell is nothing short or trying to bypass those same feats. Out of combat, every PC can pull back to a safe spot most of time and cast spells silently due to high Perception DC. It seems fairly clear and fair thing.
A plethora you say, Malag? I can count them all on HALF a hand, and they aren't very good (all featuring DCs that are so low as to be trivial), or don't even work without generous interpretation.
It may not be a plethora, but Silent Spell is (in my opinion) enough.
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@RD
Why would you need any more then that? Few feats that disguise a single aspect of magic is quite enough.
And to be even more sharper, bunch of players wish to disguise their casting, yet none of them wishes to invest something into it? A simple metamagic rod of Silent Spell would help you out a long way without wasting feats. That's all it takes.
To me, this is one of topics that almost doesn't deserve discussion because the answer is clear. At least, I perceive it to be clear.
To me, this is one of topics that almost doesn't deserve discussion because the answer is clear. At least, I perceive it to be clear.
*Notes the lack of FAQ request clicks* ... I think you are correct.
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Witch, Cackle Hex: Does my character literally have to cackle madly when I use this hex, or is that just flavor text?
Your character actually has to cackle—probably in a strong voice, akin to the volume and clarity necessary for verbal spell components.
Does anybody who disagrees with the "Strong = Volume" camp have a response to this? The Cackle FAQ was issued pretty much in response to an identical question - Does a Witch actually have to cackle audibly to make use of Cackle - and the response was "Yes, generally with the same volume used when casting a spell with verbal spell components."
I honestly can't see there still being a question to answer. But if someone can present a strong argument otherwise, I'm all ears.
The FAQ kind of put the nail in the coffin for me. So a whispered cackle? Just doesn't make sense to me. Do you have to scream? No. But can you whisper? I don't think so.
I tend to allow what I perceive to be a cool effect and one that will be enjoyable to the party. Most of the time they can get away with "whispering" a spell if they are in a bar goofing around and they want to play tricks on people or something of that nature.
But trying to cheese their way to casting secretly in combat or as part of the main story line, forget it. That is was a rod or feat is for.
For reference, which feats or abilities disguise casting without adjusting slot level?
For reference, which feats or abilities disguise casting without adjusting slot level?
Actually yes, I don't remember off hand but there is a feat or trait that lowers the meta magic spell level for one spell. Combine that with silent spell and it does not raise the slot.
EDIT
Found it:
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
For reference, which feats or abilities disguise casting without adjusting slot level?Actually yes, I don't remember off hand but there is a feat or trait that lowers the meta magic spell level for one spell. Combine that with silent spell and it does not raise the slot.
EDIT
Found it:Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
That's not quite what I had in mind, but that is a thing. Similarly, a deaf oracle gets Silent Spell on all spells with no slot adjustment.
I'll rephrase: What feats or abilities disguise a spell without using metamagic?
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@blahpers
From general feats, there is:
- Secret Signs which disguises spells with somatic components completely.
- Spell Expertise Minor & Major grant you few Spell-like abilities which are automatically silenced and stilled.
- Spellsong disguises spellcasting with bardic performance (bard only).
- Silent & Still Metamagic feats which you already know.
There is plenty spells which will grant you bonuses also and prevent detection, such as Blessing of Fervor (grant's any spell cast the effect of Silent, Stilled or Extended spell without changing a spell slot) and good old Invisibility.
This is what crossed my mind at the moment.
(...)
And to be even more sharper, bunch of players wish to disguise their casting, yet none of them wishes to invest something into it? (...)
I'd spin the situation around to the other PCs surrounding the caster. I'd call for either Bluff, Intimidation or Perform rolls.
The are trying to distract and cover the sound and movements of the caster so ...