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First of all, to all of those who have missed me *wave* let me just say it is good to be back. I was never truly gone. I have been trolling the boards but wasn't able to sign in at my previous job and was too busy at home. But my situation has changed.
To all of those who don't know me ... stick around. I'm sure I'll manage to offend you all eventually. ;)
SO! I am likely going to be starting a new campaign soon and I have been fancying the idea of a dragon based campaign for some time now. I figure no time like the present, right?
The basic idea here is that I would like to run a campaign where the macroplot revolves around dragons. Likely mostly evil dragons. The major foes will be dragons or thralls of those dragons. Or maybe kobolds, or lizard folk or things with the half-dragon template or other things that are in some way related to dragons. Or maybe just things that interact with dragons a lot.
In fact, as a requirement during character creation I would like the characters to have some association with dragons. Whether they be a dragon blooded sorcerer, a ranger with dragon as their favored enemy, a cleric that worships a dragon god or whatever. Just include dragons in their character concept in some fashion.
Just for a little bit of background:
I will likely be running this in my own custom setting. The door is pretty wide open to anything happening so I dont need to put a lot of limits on things. No space travel and no guns. Outside of that its pretty open. One big thing is that casters need to pass a test of wizardry to cast higher (3rd) level spell or risk (extra grim) wild magic effects. Renegade casters are hunted down and forced to take the test. Passing the test awards them a ritual that "soothes the lay lines upon them" (or whatever magic mumbo jumbo you wanna come up with) that allows them to cast without risk of damaging yourself, those around you or the enironment near you.
My DM style tends to revolve more around factions and their motives than railroading players down a forced plot line. However, I do try to come up with some plots before hand so I am not totally willfully unprepared during the session. And on that note that is where I could actually use some help.
My questions goes out to anyone who has done anything like this before. Im looking for any ideas you can throw at me.
Got some ideas for some factions, groups, cults, guilds, etc. that would go good with a campaign like this?
What about plots, adventures, modules etc? Even those that could be easily modified to fit within such a campaign?
What about villains; particularly of the reoccuring variety, allies, frienemies, potential uneasy alliances, major movers and shakers, BBEG, etc? This could include different types of creatures, critters, monsters, etc that either have directly to do with dragons, or would have frequently dealings with them due to geographical location, political associations, etc.
Or whatever! Just anything you got... throw it my way. Over the next few days I'll try to post some more details maybe. Or maybe some ideas that I have. Likely once I start the campaign I'll make another thread letting you all know how its going. If I use some ideas from posters here I'll likely even update you as to how your idea worked out. Or maybe ask for further advice on how you'd handle it.
Oh, and I guess I'll try to post more regularly again too. Whether you like it or not! :P
Any particular part? Or the whole thing? Is this a novel?
Edit: Ok, just saw it is an adventure. It doesn't say the level range this is good for. Got any simple details on this?
Rerednaw:
Yeah, I own Dragonomicon. I actually won it in a character building contest back on 3rdedition.org. I also own Red Hand of Doom. That was actually the last campaign that I ran, so that is right out.
Otherwise I was considering drawing heavily from the other sources you mentioned. Good ideas though!
Brad McDowell:
I don't think its a novel. The page for it says, "Queen of Thorns is sanctioned for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."
Pathfinder Tales are novels. For what you are wanting, it would be a good idea to skim to the end of it. For what you are wanting, you should like it, the ending that is. Was actually one of my more favorite books. Best of luck to you on your campaign!
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A bunch of stuff; I love creating & messing around with settings.
Now, dragons, like humans, bone everything. So on one side, you could have a powerful faction of powerful evil demi-dragons that rule the world in the dragon's stead. The dragons pull the strings, and the demi dragons rule the humans/elves/dwarves/everything.
But the demi-dragons arent happy. They're plotting to usurp their parents.
On another side, there could be a VERY secretive organisation of paladins/good guys lead by good dragons that secretly fight the draconic oppressors. They also use their demi-dragon spawn as pawns.
Now, into all this we could include this weird thing from the "forgotten realms" setting, where all dragons are actually fighting in this ancient game of pseudo-chess with people. (I cant fid the name though)(I'll try to find it)
Found it:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Xorvintaal
It's a weird thing, but it's a good explanation for why dragons are fighting.
It would be interesting to see kobolds having an empire of their own, left mainly to their own devices because they worship the dragons. They could actually be fairly civilized, which would be a nice change.
I have a few dragon disciple character builds if you're interested. They could easily fit into the setting.
what state do you live in, i'm interested... (as in: I WANNA PLAY!)
While I dont really have the time to play, I love to write/create so I love to give help. I have a bit of free time for it, so I love to help.
i thought about a dragon setting for my first game where players would be the demi dragons as Williamoak mentioned but i was told it would be too overpowered and way too dificult to make so i didnt do it but i am still interested to see where this thread goes
I dont necessarily think the players should be demi-dragons; I would probably only allow regular races. Demi-dragons make good enemies. At worse, they could be high-level chracters with dragon disciple levels.
williamoak: Good ideas, thank you. :) I'll keep in mind that you'd like to help as I post more things I'm considering. Also, you have the right of it. As the campaign is going to be starting at 1st level there will not be demi-dragon characters. But, dragon blooded sorcerers could become 1/2 dragons (basically) with the dragon disciple prestige class and things like that.
Sowde Da'aro: I live in Lansing, MI. If you do not live here already then you should. I recommend moving. Immediately.
One potential foe I am considering using would be a TRex with the Half-Dragon and/or Half-Fiend template. I am considering having this foe worshipped by a tribe of Kobolds and/or lizardfolk. Not entirely sure, it likely will depend upon at which point I would introduce the creature.
My wife's idea was to use several different cults/tribes and have them all trying to find/unearth/whatever different peices of a magic item that could open a portal and bring through an aspect of Tiamet. This screams of Red Hand of Doom, though so I didn't want to lean too heavy on it. Still, even as cliche as it is in these kinds of games it might be too good of a plot line to pass up. Perhaps even have conflict between the different cults/tribes to compete for who got to be the ones to open the portal.
I also thought of another group of necromancers who are going about picking up the scraps of the encounters that the PCs have had with other dragon kin and collecting their bodies, corpses, bones, etc. Whatever is left. Then going back and reanimating the dragons in whatever grim ways they can find. I will also be keeping close track of their foes life totals to find which ones are left for dead but may end up stabiling if they left them only MOSTLY dead. ;)
Any other ideas? Keep em comin!
Lune, I like the idea about the necromancers. Maybe have them similar to FR's Cult of the Dragon with some twists? For the TRex, I think the Half-Dragon would be best. With the regular abilities of a dino+breath weapon, would be cool.
My only concern would be would the CR reflect the true challenge of the encounter? Should be the group be a higher level before encountering this?
Sorry for posting more questions than answers, just posting some things that may come to mind. Again, best of luck!
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Can't believe no one mentioned this yet - see if you can get your hands on the Council of Wyrms. It's 2nd edition AD&D I think, but the entire campaign revolved around the PCs being dragons or being dragon allies. Lots of material in that boxed set to work with. Some good artwork too (I particularly like the red dragon, looks a bit more humanoid than more recent depictions).
Other than that, shapechanging dragons make for interesting allies/enemies/half-breeds.
Could throw in some ideas ala Dragonlance - special weapons to kill dragons since they are so much more powerful than everything else.
Or take something from that D&D movie - rods that can control dragons, very much sought after by some, the dragons want them destroyed, etc.
Sounds like a fun campaign.
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You could let the first level PC's live happily in their village until a big dragon and his minions show up and demand tribute. The players will have to find a way to get enough money to appease the dragon, or find another way out. The next part would be a little sandboxy, but they could:
- Try to locate that starstone that fell from the sky last week. (It's actually a fire elemental that was imprisoned in a comet. Worse, there are actually more like him still up there.)
- See if they can find something valuable in the abandoned mines of the gnomes. (The mines weren't abandoned, the dragon enslaved the gnomes to dig up gems for his hoard.)
- Convince the king to send his knights to vanquish the dragon. (Something with corruption or a morally bankrupt advisor to the king. I don't know yet.)
- Try to kill the bandit minions first.
- Go after the dragon. (This is a suicide mission, but if they are clever they could try to loot his hoard and present it as their tribute.)
- Anything lucrative, that leads them out of their village. (If they come up with something you didn't think of, roll with it.)
And then you Old-Man-Logan them.
When they return, they will find their loved ones dead, and their homes destroyed. The dragon became impatient and decided to make an example. Now the players will (Hopefully) take their revenge.
I named the dragon Malachite, and he will be a unique dragon, something between a green and a forest dragon. The twist here is that the entire forest is his dungeon. Some ideas:
- Malachite uses Pass Without Trace to hide his tracks.
- Except when he tries to lure you into one of his fake trapped lairs, then he doesn't use Pass Without Trace.
- Don't forget his gnomish slaves. They could run into them and set them free.
- If they are foolish enough to think they only need one person to keep watch at night, sent in a choker to strangle him.
- In the final battle with Malachite, he uses Woodland Stride in difficult terrain.
Have fun!
Kris: Yeah, I'm just thinkin up ideas from all parts of the campaign at this point. It might help to get the wheels in motion early for as many sects as I can.
Tormsskull: Council of Wyrms... dunno why I didn't think of that one on my own. I never played through it but that would was very popular when it came out. I'll have to take a look and see if it sparks any creativeness. Good suggestion! :) I do have some ideas for shapechangers. I may share those later. I think I am going to specifically leave out the near-artifact level Dragonlances or Rods of Dragon control. I think that would closer serve to ruin the campaign than help it.
the David: I really like your ideas. I'll be yoinking many of them all over the place! So many great ideas all over the place. I'll likely even use that actual dragon: Malachite.
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I'm currently running a homebrew with a massive megadungeon. Said dungeon's most populous residents are kobolds.
[spoiler=Flamenwing Castle]
A century ago a paladin worshiping Apsu built a citadel atop a hilly area along the coast. Ostensibly this was to be close to the nearby Trade Way he'd vowed to help protect but in fact the caverns below were old draconic breeding grounds. He'd hoped to honor his god by helping re-populate dragons in the area. Unfortunately an ancient blue named Ballathunda learned of the paladin from her coastal island lair.
Ballathunda and HORDES of kobolds swarmed down and sieged the place. In the end the blue dragon slew the paladin, but not before he called down a divine miracle to imprison her in the eye of a wicked tempest overhead. Now coastal storms wrack the ruin; these are called Dragon Squalls.
The kobolds were scattered after losing their deity. They wandered the region far and wide, learned of the dungeons beneath the ruin, and returned with purloined draconic eggs. Now the breeding grounds are once more the home of dragons but also kobolds who have been expanding the tunnels for decades. Of course other creatures have found the dungeons as well and the various "outposts" of the dungeons are controlled by different factions.[/spolier]
I'm trying to conceptualize lots of different draconic things without any of the books mentioned in this thread so far. I've dropped the term "Dragon Forges" into my players' heads and intend to expand this concept. I have a secretive holy order called the Order of the Dragon's Shield devoted to the ideals of Apsu (or Bahamut). There's also an extremely rare new diversity of kobold - Bronzelings. These are Lawful Good kobolds with bronze scales and they help the Order in maintaining a foothold in the dungeon.
As I create and develop I could definitely send you what I have come up with. I'll drop back into this thread from time to time as well for some inspiration if that's alright.
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the David: I really like your ideas. I'll be yoinking many of them all over the place! So many great ideas all over the place. I'll likely even use that actual dragon: Malachite.
I still have to run that campaign myself. My idea was to have Malachite favor of green gems, with malachite as his personal favorite. His scales should appear as malachite too.
His powers should be more foresty. Pass Without Trace and Woodland Stride, maybe poison instead of a breath weapon. As a forest dragon, I can't picture him flying. On the other hand, he does travel all the way to the village, and that would be hard to do on foot.I don't really like kobolds as draconic creatures, but the idea of different tribes of color coded kobolds working against eachother seems fun. A single tribe of kobolds with a caste system based on color seems cool too.
Yeah, Mark. Any of the stuff that is not specific to that particular campaign would be good. And anything that could easily be adapted to another would be great too. :)
Out of curiosity is the dungeon something that is pregenerated or did you create it yourself?
You know... I was thinking about stuff like that. Like maybe some Kobolds or something came up with a ritual to turn some of their progeny into half dragons. Or maybe they even adopt some other critter and make IT into a half dragon to serve as their leader. I dunno... comin up with some ideas here...
Stealth Edit: Whats this about Ravener?...
Yeah, Mark. Any of the stuff that is not specific to that particular campaign would be good. And anything that could easily be adapted to another would be great too. :)
Out of curiosity is the dungeon something that is pregenerated or did you create it yourself?
Went to a random dungeon generator, got a basic rectangle w/a lot of big and small rooms, then further subdivided ruling every square to be 10', not 5'.
I second the way to infuse dragonish qualities into monsters w/out mating. Experimentation by kobold alchemists, exposure to draconic radiations (fear aura?), consuming dragons; any and all of these could be ways for the PCs or other mortal creatures to have dragony type abilities.
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As dracoliches are property of WotC, Paizo invented their own and named them Raveners. You can find them in Bestiary 2.
Add some illusion magic to fool the players into thinking the ravener is a regular dragon.
Kobold Alchemist Dragon Disciple? It would be awesome, but I don't think it would work RAW...
I will admit I'm not a huge fan of a more "savage" campaign; I look at dragons like "nukes", and everybody has to tread lightly around them otherwise they might blow. I'm also not a huge fan of dungeons, so some of my ideas might simply not fit.
Although I can see evil dragons fighting AGAINST the releasing of bahamut (instead of tiamat); the little tribes collecting artifacts are actually fighting against the evil dragons, and the heroes have to decide to either stop them (and obey their masters) or try to bring bahamut into the world.
I personally dislike the "typecasting" many races (mostly kobolds, orcs, goblins, and the like) get as "cannon fodder" for the heroes. I prefer showing a bit more complexity (which is why I prefer cloak & dagger stuff).
Good luck, I'll keep an eye on this. I'm currently working on my first campaign myself (an all-dwarf, underground centric campaign) so it's nice to flex the creative muscles.
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I will admit I'm not a huge fan of a more "savage" campaign; I look at dragons like "nukes", and everybody has to tread lightly around them otherwise they might blow. I'm also not a huge fan of dungeons, so some of my ideas might simply not fit.
Although I can see evil dragons fighting AGAINST the releasing of bahamut (instead of tiamat); the little tribes collecting artifacts are actually fighting against the evil dragons, and the heroes have to decide to either stop them (and obey their masters) or try to bring bahamut into the world.
Awesome!
Hmm, we've dne something like this before. I even once had a gm run a game where we WERE dragons, oh that was fun.
So, a few things.
A) You need to consider that if the dragons are a macro-force in the world, what is their society like? Are they an organized group or are they the usual loners that many systems depict them to be? Perhaps they are loners with an over-arching hierarchy of control, such as a ruling council? I know in a campaign I played the Council of Elder Dragons was the ruler of the dragonic races, and they caused mayhem by essentially unanimously deciding one day that the humanoids had gotten too uppity, and it was time to put them in their place. War ensues. Maybe in this case the enemies are evil and neutral dragons, as perhaps the good dragons have slowly dwindled over time? Potential allies being the few remaining good dragons.
B) You need to consider demi-dragonic races. You mentioned a few in your early post, kobolds, half-dragons, etc. Consider dragonborn and spellscales from 3.5 as potential additives to your game, as I feel they can add an entirely new sense of flavor to humanoid dragonic races, instead of just a human with dragon wings and a breath weapon. Perhaps you use the dragonborn as more ground-troops type of things, where the dragons are capturing and converting humanoids into dragonborn, where the spellscales (which are a natural race, not a conversion) are direct servants of the dragons, acting as their wizard, rogue, and other task masters. Then after deciding which races you want to include in how, consider the onus that some of these races might incur from regular humanoids. How do they interact? Are they feared or respected? Do some demi-dragon-races do better than others with the general population?
C) Especially keep in mind the types of terrain that your players are going to encounter. If they're out hunting dragons, different dragons enjoy vastly different types of environments, from swamps all the way to active volcanoes. This could be an active source of side-quests for your party, locating not only the location of the next "target", but ascertaining and then acquiring the best method to get to the location without drowning/falling/being burned to death.
D) Never be afraid to play up the trapped lair. A lot of GMs I know tend to just go with "they're in a cave, you walk in, battle ensues." Dragons are creatures with comparably super-human intellect, and a lot of pure arcane might to back it up. Don't feel bad about making the trip into a dragon's lair become a dungeon crawl. Many dragons may trap their entrances into the lair, and perhaps employ other lesser races to guard them, whether willingly or not. Some dragons may be easy to get to, others they may ultimately throw up their hands in defeat as the traps and tricks of the passages defeat them.
E) Don't hesitate in breaking the standard moulds. We are all pretty aware of the chromatic/metallic alliance of evil vs. good, but an aspect I tend to enjoy is when GMs avoid going by those stereotypes as a rule. Yes, maybe they as a race are more INCLINED to go towards that, but that doesn't mean there can't occasionally be a good red dragon, or by the flip of that coin, an evil gold dragon. Mayhaps that could even be a plot twist. A benevolent gold dragon they come to believe is their ally has been secretly plotting against them and misguiding them the entire time, only revealing when it's "too late" what fools the silly humans truly are to have trusted him.
F) Taking E further to heart, don't be afraid to apply that to other races. Perhaps you go with the old stereotype that elves are friends of dragons, or perhaps in this setting they detest them. Perhaps some unsuspected allies come in the shape of some of the demi-dragonic races who seek to be free of the ilk of their rulers.
G) If you're going to focus on dragons, don't be afraid to use ones your players either have never encountered or are not familiar with. The new Bestiary 4 has some great ones, and the Imperial dragons could make an entirely third party in the chromatic/metallic scale, and perhaps the group could seek aid from some Imperial dragons who would otherwise remain neutral in the conflict?
That's all from me for now, but I might think of more.
EDIT: Quick addition to G, perhaps some major event happens that the party is unable to prevent, and so they have to hunt down a Time Dragon and convince him to use up one of his precious trips through time in order to go back and prevent it from happening? That sounds pretty sweet to me.
@ Slick Willy Tree: why savage nuke? When you think of vampires, do you think savage throat-ripper? If you're a fan of Anne Rice or modern films, you might instead think sexy and sparkly undead.
Consider the same genre change for dragons.
Just think - dragons hoard treasure and they live for, like, ever. Also many of them have the ability to polymorph into humanoids. A giant monster sitting on a mega-hoard of coins in the forest gets a crusade called on them; a mortal king that fakes his own death every few years and has a "summer cottage" in the woods; no one except his political rivals hunt HIM down.
So take a green dragon once he gets old enough to polymorph into a mortal form. He's tired of living like an animal in the woods. He doesn't want to rule as king, but he also doesn't want to be the monster of the story either. He sets up a tower in the woods with a dungeon big enough below it for his true form and his hoard, then he claims he's a powerful wizard who banished the dragon.
With creative use of low level spells he gets some local rubes to believe him. Add in some illusions and him in true form laying a false trail, and no one questions him. Sure, lots of young, hotshot adventurers come to him either to try to murder and loot him or just to train with this awesome spellcaster, but in time even these fade.
But the dragon still hungers for fresh treasure.
So every once in a while he takes wing and hunts. Other times in his human form he hires bands of adventurers to take out rivals and their hoards. Mixing the 2 techniques he stays just under the radar for, say, a century.
The campaign picks up where the dragon, growing restless finally with his dual personality, has finally given into the urge to dominate some kobolds. Civilization encroaches on the outskirts of his forest so the dragon appears to the kobolds like a demigod and compels them to raid the young villages for his pleasure.
The PCs then come into the game where they are wailing on kobolds. These creatures aren't stupid OR savage; kobolds are lawful and have at least average intelligence. They're also defined by their classes, so there will be some heroic type leaders among them with heroic stat arrays, so the kobolds will have some intelligent, long-term plans to loot the towns for their master.
Also remember: the dragon himself is hyper-intelligent and evil. He might have had "side businesses" over the past century to diversify his portfolio: slaver rings, forced breeding programs, cults, sweatshops and workhouses. Anything that would serve the dual purpose of sewing chaos and hindering the march of civilization into his lands as well as keeping his hoard full.
And you could have all kinds of side gigs with secondary monsters. The dragon might have deals with the fey - together they keep the humans from cutting down the forests and both power groups benefit. Goblins on the other hand are being forced out of their dark corner of the woods by the new kobolds; they're peeved and looking to burn something. Then of course there might be some rival dragon, like a young black dragon upstart in the swampy fringe of the forest. This whippersnapper has a cult of her own and has just found a device in her hoard that will allow her ALSO to take a human form. Now she is the witch queen of a cult of necromancers who are draining the cemetaries of the land at an alarming rate. Why is the necromancy cult beefing up its ranks so much for; who is it going to war with?
These plots are ripe for sub-plots, manipulation and wit. With the exception of the kobolds' lairs, there would be few "dungeons" with most encounters taking place in raided villages, ruins, or amid the wilds of the land. I suppose you could have some crypts and tombs for the Swamp Witch Queen and her cult, but that's about it.
Y'know as I posted I just thought - what about a dragon/fey mash up for the game?
- kobolds in modern mythology were a kind of faerie right?
- fey are capricious but some also hoard gold correct?
- fey are symbols of fertility; dragons represent virility as well
Imagine a dark and eldritch land. I mean REALLY ancient. Nearly all forests are those moss-covered, old-growth types with 150' tall trees. There are swamps that span miles. The mountains are foreboding; a mix of primal glaciers and volcanoes. Yet in spite of this decrepitude along the sea mortal society has flourished.
This is largely thanks to religion. Another key component though is a council of good dragons located amid remote islands. So up and down the coast you might have high-fantasy but once you leave the safety of the towns you enter a truly frightening wilderness - the kind of place the Brothers Grimm warned us of.
Out there you have to turn your clothes inside out, walk backwards, and appease the forest spirits with gold left on a rock or meat hung from the trees. If you go up into the mountains the dwarves and elves try to warn you off; once past their halls the very winds have teeth.
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I actually like the idea of rival dragons. It's a lot better than: "We slay dragon after dragon just because."
I'm usually kinda carefull with repetitive encounters, but Malachite might need a rival...
Alchemists can't get Dragon Form till level 16, and even then they're still medium. (Compare that to the huge dragon wizard at level 15.) Ofcourse, you could introduce that alchemist that accidently turned himself into a hideous draconic monster on purpose. (Like the ogrekin template except for dragons? Or, just use the ogrekin template and change the type to dragon.)
There's also a draconic template in races of the dragon, though if I remember correctly, it wasn't very draconic.
I definitly DONT want the dragons to be savage; the current conception (a dragon sitting on a hoard) is rather savage to me, and considering their intelligence, they can do better. However, they still do have the reputation of being VERY prideful (or at least the evil dragons do) so I cant see them refusing a position of power they can get away with.
My idea (if dragons are to be the principal force of the world) is that dragons are great "powers". That's why they are like nukes: a single "normal" person pisses them off, and everything can go boom.
In a world where dragons are openly in power, (I believe) the situation becomes like the cold war. You've got a bunch of nations with "nukes" (the dragons) keeping each other in check, and everyone else is trying not to get in their way (again, in fear of the nukes).
@Mark hoover: as to what you propose for a beginning of a campaign, I would see as an interesting genesis to a world, where dragons became organized long enough to truly dominate EVERYTHING, until it becomes a completely dragon-dominated world.
Also, I think we are looking in 2 completely different directions: my thoughts go towards a "civilized" world, where wilderness is rare or far away, while you're trending towards a "primeaval/pioneering" world. Which might explain the divergence of opinions.
Also: as to shiny vampires, those are not vampires. At best, they are incubi/succubi with a taste for blood. I can call an octopus a squid all i want, it does not become a squid.
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In my campaign, I have long rail line and alliance of city-states. The corporation that runs operations of the rail line is heavily backed by two great wyrm red dragons.
The first started by convincing the existing city states along the route to ally and build new cities at the appropriate way points to enable trade to move swiftly and securely form one ocean to another. The line was build with standart low grade steam engines and cars. The second wyrm is a rival of the first and upped the ante by developing the enlarged and reinforced track and worked with alchemists to develop a machine/dragon hybrid, out of eggs that would not hatch on thier own, that could power a supersized train for longer distances with food instead of coal for fuel.
The two wyrms are using a fued between two of the city states to create competing factions within the Rail Lands Alliance that may result in a civil war.
I though this might provide an example of draconic factions that could provide an entire campaign. I have not used this campaign as of yet as it has been better as background material for other campaigns. ie, this is why reinforcements are not available, the pcs are exploring the area instead of troops, ect.
(Voice of Will Arnett or the Movie Trailer Guy)
In a world where dragons are openly in power...
I'm sorry. I'm not making fun Oakenstein, it's just the way it sounded in my head.
But I agree w/you - dragons SHOULD be played as something more than monsters sitting on mountains of gold. I don't think I'd make them rulers, but that's just me. I don't go in for big government in my homebrews. Currently I have a gargantuan land that was one a great empire that was broken by an overking of sorts whose knights went out on a series of crusades over 2 centuries ago to break the oppressive rule.
So these knights went out and won the day, but they were as bad as the imperials; they plundered and took spoils from wherever they "liberated" and didn't bother to stick around to rule. Those knights that DID take over were somewhat chaotic or at least interested in themselves more than Overking Thane. So now the lands of Karnoss (my homebrew) is a vast land of independent regions. They technically owe fealty to a distant and feeble monarch, but none pay this ruler much heed. Each region is large enough to be its own small kingdom, so each region basically governs itself. Since no one's willing to risk civil war just yet they all call themselves baronies, marchlands and that kind of thing.
That's what I envision dropping intelligent dragons into.
Now, let's say you have, say, a 300-mile stretch of trade through a vale bordered by hills, coastal highlands, boreal woods and mountains? There's no king and the dragon doesn't necessarily want to RULE anyone as a baron. What's a canny dragon to do? I've got the idea to make him a merchant lord.
Hear me out W.O. What if dragons were smart and powerful, but purposely didn't let themselves get seen as nukes? In other words, what if they hid in plain sight like hags, vampires or other evil NPC masterminds? Take the sample Adult Green Dragon from Bestiary 1. He's hyper-intellectual (Int 16, Wisdom 17, Cha 16), he's got the ability to change shape by SLA 5/day, and he's survived for roughly 150 years. He's seen the last gasps of the old empire, the rise to power of the young barons and the slow march into this current, dark age. He might have even helped it along by using powers like woodland stride, water breathing and entangle at will to frame druids and rangers and perpetuate the isolation of communities.
You could STILL have high civilization like you wanted Annie Williamoakley. Its just that the civilization would be more stand alone, more isolated. Small, well-developed city states along the Trade Way with no one of them powerful enough to take control of the region. All the while trade goes ever on; profit and gain for the merchants even while the local nobles are at one another's throats. And WHO are these merchants? Well one of them is our green dragon, in disguise.
Now conveniently in my homebrew I've rigged up a scenario where it's not uncommon to see kobold NPCs. They are taken by adventurers as part of the spoils after raids on the megadungeon I designed. Some of these adventurers use the kobolds taken as slaves; some of THESE are eventually freed by the bleeding-heart freebooters. A fringe subculture of these second-class citizens has developed over the past 40 years and now these free-kobolds work as laborers, night-riders and other unappealing jobs.
Anyway, perhaps the dragon-merchant has a handful of these kobolds with hundreds more stashed along the road in bolt-holes, mini-dungeons or hidden in cities. They are not a great big Red Army the dragon means to "nuke" on the land; rather they are a vast network of spies and informants used to further the dragon's insidious plots. Fly over and "nuke" a village for it's spoils? Heck no; my kobolds raid the farmsteads a few days ahead of my caravan while also stealing all the grain they can. When I show up I just HAPPEN to have stores of grain (repacked into new sacks of course) that I sell for a fortune, robbing the village blind. When they can't pay, I take a few of the women. One I'll eat, another I'll mate with, and the third is promised to a cult working to destabilize the next city state.
And the caravan rolls ever on and on...
@ Mark the vacuum cleaner: If I remember correctly, the good dragons in the forgotten realms actually did do most of their stuff "under wraps", and a good number of evil dragons too. Heck, I think MOST of the older dragons act that way (in the forgotten realms anyway).
However, I dont see that as interesting. I would rather have the PCs be in the shadows/underdogs than fighting against a shadow threat. I'm not saying your ideas are bad (they are in fact, quite interesting & well develloped Mark the hydroelectric plant), they just dont appeal to me. Plus, the image I've always perceived most dragons as more prideful than calculating. More Goaould than Ori (stargate reference).
In the end, we are just spitballing for the OP, so I honestly dont feel the need to justify my idea, I just find having the NPCs dealing with an empire of dragons (and the larger-scale cold-war aesthetic) more interesting.
Unfortunately, I dont have much time to think of it, with finals coming up. I'll put it on my list (I'm prepping an all-dwarf campaign, and I've got harry-potter-ish, fantasy stargate, pseudo-colonial & now dragon empires on the back burner).
Though thinking on the forgotten realms again, toril (the main world) has a parallel in the planet Abeir, which is supposedly ruled by dragons & primordials. Might make an interesting setting.
Note`BTW, what is it with the nicknames? I get most of the references, but...???
FlySkyHigh: Many good ideas in there.
A. As far as macro forces go they are among the top and should be in any campaign that includes them IMO. But they are not alone. And I will have to decide how to include the other big forces.
B. Interesting take on things. I think I might do that with one group of dragon underlings.
C. Oh, yeah. I got lots of ideas for terrain based encounters for the dragons themselves. Dragonomicon was good with providing ideas for that.
D. I need to look up more ideas for traps.
E. I have no issue with doing this maybe once... but thats about it. I feel like dragons are close ot the ends of those steriotypes.
G. I have a couple ideas with things for that. One is a Steel Dragon.
Mark: Once again, chock full of great ideas.
As for the world building ideas, I don't need so much of that. Just where to fit in dragons into it. I have a world I designed that these will be going into. Things to add to it though are good though.
You'll have to do some converting, but the old Dragon Mountain is pretty much exactly what you want...
FlySkyHigh: Many good ideas in there...
Well I'm certainly glad you liked them, and I hope they come of some use to you. As far as E is concerned, that tends to fall into my "I hate Metagaming" category. In my experience, I want encounters with dragons to be equally awe-inspiring and terrifying, not something where you go OH, IT'S JUST A GOLD DRAGON, WE'RE OKAY GUYS. So I try and stay away from alignment-ism :P. I follow that same rule with most other races as well, try to keep people on their feet. Yeah, chances are if you meet an orc tribe, they're more than likely going to want to murder you. But that's not to say you should attack all orcs on sight kind of thing.
I like steel dragons. Lots of different dragons in the old dragon magazines. I'm especially fond of Tome Dragons (Hnng, I love them so much).
Also another thing to keep in mind, if you do go with B, is the possibility that one of your players may want to PLAY one of those races, especially if you introduce Dragonborn or Spellscales. Thus why I mentioned thinking about how they would interact with the rest of the world, so you can make it clear what the player can expect.
3rd party book the slayers guide to dragons has some really good info on how to customize your own dragons (amongst them is my favorite hybrids of different colors etc). With that and the 3.5 draconomicon, and pathfinders new dragon book you can get some really good information.
Billy of the Wood: sorry dude if I've gone overboard w/the nicknames. Its a habit I picked up after I realized just how silly some folks got w/their screen names. It didn't help at all when I got sucked into a thread game here where the idea was to nickname folks based on their avatar.
And you're right: it doesn't matter what we think of each other's ideas. If the OP can use some, it's all good. Incidentally I wasn't trying to compare so much as contrast. I think its cool having your main campaign villain be a big huge power in plain sight. Everyone in the kingdom KNOWS the king is a dragon and that the yearly taxes and virgin lottery goes to feed his unholy appetites. Everyone KNOWS it, but what can we do about it? We're not heroes...
The coolest thing about a campaign like that Dubba-ya is that when the PCs get high enough level to go toe-to-toe w/the dragon they better have a plan on how to rule when he's gone. Yes, the dragon's evil but he's LAWFUL evil; he's kept the kingdom together and running. Once he's gone that void may just destroy everything.
Anyone with module suggestions for use in this style of campaign? I'm sure many could be adapted if created for other editions. Mostly just looking for inspiration.
Dragon Mountain Boxed set from TSR could be useful.
Dragon's Demand from Paizo? Seems like a no-brainer for this campaign.
Perhaps the artifacts that everyone is trying to find are all ready in plain sight. But they're centerpieces for the hordes of the strongest dragons. So the tribes have been stealing them out of the lairs while the dragons hunt. You could spread the pieces among the hordes of several differently aligned dragons. Maybe the pieces are a gate that first let dragons into the world, and uniting the pieces again will send them back to their home. That way alignment doesn't matter. The Dragons don't want to go home for some reason, even good dragons will viciously protect their horde for this reason.
Cubic: I don't own it and it is hard to find being that it is out of print for decades. Maybe I could make like an internet ninja and find it in the seedier parts of the interwebs though.
Mark: Do you have personal experience with that? I had been eyeballing it.
MindLord: That would give a passable reason for PCs to have to fight good aligned dragons if I ever wanted to have them do that.
Dragon's Demand is a good module, though I would recommend stringing it out and emphasizing the interactions in and around town. There are a lot of options for creative players to have fun in the module.
Good aligned creatures can be fought and killed just as easily as evil. Arrogance transcends alignment, and dragons are shall we say, not modest.
Another option for you is look at the paizo book, Distant Worlds, the planet Triaxus has an entire continent ruled by drake/dragonkind.
@Looney Tunes: I haven't gotten the module on the table yet - just started a monthly campaign a couple sessions ago and planned DD for a side quest from the main megadungeon. Still I've read through it and it has several elements you're looking for. Its also nice that it goes both dungeon hack and investigation w/some fun local NPCs. Players who don't enjoy RP can get through it fine, but there's a lot of room for RP - so called "talky scenes" as my players enjoy saying :)
I have read/heard a fair amount about Dragon Mountain in my time. I wonder how difficult it would be to change the foes from Kobolds to something like Lizardfolk. Or perhaps even Half-Dragon Lizardfolk.
Also, someone earlier (the David) had mentioned pulling an old man logan (have to look up that reference still) on the PCs. I wonder how well that plot idea would fit in with Dragon's Demand.
And then you Old-Man-Logan them.
In the story arc by Millar Logan (A.K.A Wolverine) is an old man in a nihilistic future where the supervillains won. Among other things in the story, Logan leaves his wife and kids to have an adventure, only to return and find them destroyed whereupon he reclaims his former mantle.
I think what the David is saying is that you build up what the PCs love/covet: their family, homes, money, whatever then force/coerce them to leave it unguarded. While they're off that thing they love gets destroyed. Then the PCs return and get nuts.
Instead of "Old Man Logan" you could also say "Aunt Veru/Uncle Owen" them. (Now if you don't get THAT reference, then I might as well just go...)
As for how you could do it, well, you could either START them in the town from Dragon's Demand, have them get attached, then have the dragon send them on an errand only to destroy the town, or you could have the module be the errand they have to go on.