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So I'm testing out a bloodrager(sorcerer/barbarian) but you get most of your best stuff by level 12 so i was looking into multiclassing a Brawler(Monk/Fighter) focusing on the claws I get while in bloodrage however I cant go take advantage of my claws with Flurry "A brawler with natural
weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s
flurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to
her brawler’s flurry attacks."
Brawler’s Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler
can make a brawler’s f lurry as a full-attack action. When
doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon
Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or
weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not
need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength bonus to her damage
rolls for all successful attacks made with brawler’s f lurry,
whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a
weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler may substitute
disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed
attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural
weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s
flurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to
her brawler’s flurry attacks.
At 8th level, the brawler is treated as having the
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using
brawler’s flurry. At 15th level, the brawler is treated as
having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when
using brawler’s flurry.
However this is based of the Monk's Flurry so I was wondering if Feral Combat Training would apply to brawler's as well?
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Well the claws are a natural weapon, so I don't see why not. Also, you do realize the bloodrager is a sorceror/barbarian hybrid, right?
Yeah I'll revise you take your spells from the Magus list so i got confused
I would think that the feat would apply. The flurry is similar enough to the monk flurry that I cannot see why it wouldn't work and would be surprised to be convinced otherwise.
To though in some opposing arguement (not that I agree with it), specific trumps general. Which is more specific, that the brawlers flurry does not work with natural attacks, or the feat allows natural attacks to be used in stead of unarmed strikes?
yup it just leaves me confused
A brawler with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to
her brawler’s flurry attacks.
vs
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
oh paizo what did you mean for a half-orc bloodrager who dreams of flurrying is claws as a brawler to do?
Aren't feats considered more specific than class abilities?
To though in some opposing arguement (not that I agree with it), specific trumps general. Which is more specific, that the brawlers flurry does not work with natural attacks, or the feat allows natural attacks to be used in stead of unarmed strikes?
I'm the GM of the campaign, and I'm also of the opinion that specific trumps general. The ability says no, so no; but I'm open to persuasion...hence this thread. Considering the language of the ability was written knowing full well about that feat (and Monks in ability to use natural attack based feats) I have to believe it was intentional.
But, again, I'm listening.
So the two flurry in question :
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
vs
Brawler’s Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler
can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When
doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon
Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or
weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not
need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength bonus to her damage
rolls for all successful attacks made with brawler’s flurry,
whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a
weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler may substitute
disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed
attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural
weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s
flurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to
her brawler’s flurry attacks.
At 8th level, the brawler is treated as having the
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using
brawler’s flurry. At 15th level, the brawler is treated as
having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when
using brawler’s flurry.
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Well, from a GM's perspective you could rule either and be backed up. Once again the question is whether the feat or the class ability is more specific.
In my honest opinion though, I like to favor more towards "yes" than "no". In this particular case, your player is not going to be receiving that much combat improvement. A monk's unarmed strikes start to deal more and more damage, whereas natural attacks stay static in damage. Any buff that a natural attack can get a unarmed strike can get. At level 1, a monks unarmed attack already deals just as much damage.
So using natural attacks is a downgrade (unless there's something I'm missing). Having to spend a feat to get to use those natural attacks makes it even worse. If you were playing early game only, natural attacks are places of concern, but since this is going to be a mid-late game option it's a non-issue.
The only reason for this is the fantasy. People tend to prefer having claws like wolverine than being able to punch trees down.
Best of luck to you both!
Yes, but it's also come up in the errata since that Improved Natural Attack does not work for Monks, so expressly saying no to natural weapons, again, has to be intentional.
And I hear you Frodo, the problem is as we are discussing in another thread this character is potentially dealing between 6d6 and 4d8 per attack in that flurry pending how the buffs stack, so it can all get out of hand pretty quickly. We split the threads because the questions are different...but highly related.
Yes, but it's also come up in the errata since that Improved Natural Attack does not work for Monks, so expressly saying no to natural weapons, again, has to be intentional.
And I hear you Frodo, the problem is as we are discussing in another thread this character is potentially dealing between 6d6 and 4d8 per attack in that flurry pending how the buffs stack, so it can all get out of hand pretty quickly. We split the threads because the questions are different...but highly related.
That's true but how is that any different then you going Bloodrager/Monk and using the "Flurry of Blows" I guess the question would be is that is it more 'OP' to use "Brawler’s Flurry" vs "Flurry of Blows"
Well, I think everyone agrees it would work for a Bloodrager/Monk.
But Monks and Brawlers aren't the same thing, and bring different class abilities to the table that have to be considered. And, for the sake of the playtest, I'm trying to stick to RaW as much as possible.
The reason the feat doesn't mention Brawler's Flurry is because when it was written hat class didn't exist yet. This is a case of having to use common sense. The brawler is a fighter/monk hybrid that gets a flurry ability almost identical to monk's flurry. Feral Combat Training works with monk flurry, therefore it should work with Brawler's Flurry.
I'm with you on this I can't understand why it shouldn't work. You can have the same effect with a different class. The real reason here I want the Brawler vs Monk:
A. Fun to test out the new class
B. Better match my playstyle
C. I don't Have to be a lawful rager (although allowed now with bloodrager)
Well, I think everyone agrees it would work for a Bloodrager/Monk.
But Monks and Brawlers aren't the same thing, and bring different class abilities to the table that have to be considered. And, for the sake of the playtest, I'm trying to stick to RaW as much as possible.
If they ment it and left it out then yeah but if they didn't then it will go untested. I guess this is what play testing is for to shake out problems like thus. Also the question isn't wheter you can multiclass brawler its weather you can take advantage of "Brawler’s Flurry" with "Natural Weapons" using "Feral Combat Training "
Just a heads up, this thread should probably be under either the Playtest General Discussion forum or the Playtest Class Discussion forum.
Just a heads up, this thread should probably be under either the Playtest General Discussion forum or the Playtest Class Discussion forum.
oh sorry can I move it or do I have to repost it?
I would look at it this way if you are taking specific over general
Generally what you want to do cannot be done I.E.use your natural weapons with your flurry...says it right there in the class ability yes?
Feats and magic items are things that I consider the most specific rules...face it they straight out allow full bending of rules sometimes
The class ability comes naturally to the class...you don't choose it...so it's general
Feats are chosen by you as you level and should allow you to do what they say
For an example...let's say I want to use a non piercing weapon with the duelists PrC ability precise strike...can I do that? Let's look...
A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.
Well I guess not...it says I have to use a piercing weapon...but WAIT!!!
Dervish Dance (Combat)
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
And also
Dueling Mastery (Combat)
You have mastered the grueling fighting style perfected by the swordlords.Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (dueling sword), Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dueling sword).
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Initiative checks as long as you start combat with a dueling sword in your hand. As long as you wield only a single dueling sword in one hand, you gain a +2 shield bonus to your AC—if you wield the sword in two hands, this bonus drops to a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Although the dueling sword inflicts slashing damage, you treat it as if it were also a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist.
Both allow you to specifically break the general rule of using only piercing weapons for the duelists abilities
Hope this swayed you :)
oh sorry can I move it or do I have to repost it?Just a heads up, this thread should probably be under either the Playtest General Discussion forum or the Playtest Class Discussion forum.
I don't know how to move a thread, either, but I did recreate this topic over there on the playtest board. It would be great if this can get moved by the admins, though, so all this excellent dialog isn't lost.
oh sorry can I move it or do I have to repost it?Just a heads up, this thread should probably be under either the Playtest General Discussion forum or the Playtest Class Discussion forum.
I don't know how to move a thread, either, but I did recreate this topic over there on the playtest board. It would be great if this can get moved by the admins, though, so all this excellent dialog isn't lost.
lol i did the same thing at the same time whoops
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfgc?BLOODRAGER-BRAWLER-MULTICLASSING-FERAL#1
oh sorry can I move it or do I have to repost it?Just a heads up, this thread should probably be under either the Playtest General Discussion forum or the Playtest Class Discussion forum.
I don't know how to move a thread, either, but I did recreate this topic over there on the playtest board. It would be great if this can get moved by the admins, though, so all this excellent dialog isn't lost.
lol i did the same thing at the same time whoops
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfgc?BLOODRAGER-BRAWLER-MULTICLASSING-FERAL#1
deleted mine
Glad I checked before I deleted mine, hahaha.
This is the monk's version for reference
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks..
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While brawler's flurry is not "flurry of blows" the text is almost identical, and since the brawler cannot multi with monk (since they are a monk) I don't see any harm in allowing the brawler to use Feral Combat training, its not like the claw attack increases in damage the way an unarmed strike does.
Thank you!
But back to the subject I've been doing some digging and this is what i found rearguards to the feat in question:
I know the playtest document calls them "alternate classes," but I don't think the design team has made a decision about whether or not they count as their component classes for the purpose of qualifying for class-specific feats.
It's a good question, though.
So the answer is I don't know.
My thought is... despite the design team's uncertainty, if the design team continues to say they are alternate classes and that thus you cannot multiclass with their component classes.... that means that brawler should be considered a monk for all qualifying purposes and Feral Combat Training should work. (Just like ninja and samurai can take appropriate rogue and cavalier things.) This means you also don't need explicit rules saying "x qualifies for x feat as x." Saving space.
If the classes are no longer considered alternate classes, they should be allowed to multiclass with their "component" classes (just like a magus can, if it wants to, multiclass with a wizard or fighter). But if this is the case, they need to repeatedly, clearly, and succinctly, not what, if any, abilities they qualify for as any other class.
Either way, they need to make a hard call about this one way or another or it is going to REALLY add to a lot of confusion.
If it becomes the latter, then it's just a matter of clearing up the issue of a feat existing prior to a class's existence.
For what it's worth, as a GM, I would allow a Brawler with means of getting claws to take Feral Combat Training. The intent of the feat seems to be to allow someone with flurry of blows, an ability which normally prohibits use of natural weapons, to use natural weapons with that ability. Reword the feat "anyone with the flurry of blows class ability" and it's fixed (just like many feats which reference class abilities just reference, say, "anyone with a companion" or "anyone with channel energy" rather than say "any cleric with channel energy").
Thanks, Chris!
For what it's worth, as a GM, I would allow a Brawler with means of getting claws to take Feral Combat Training. The intent of the feat seems to be to allow someone with flurry of blows, an ability which normally prohibits use of natural weapons, to use natural weapons with that ability. Reword the feat "anyone with the flurry of blows class ability" and it's fixed (just like many feats which reference class abilities just reference, say, "anyone with a companion" or "anyone with channel energy" rather than say "any cleric with channel energy").
Agreed.
And after careful consideration, I've decided I'm going to allow AngryOrc to do it with the appropriate feats, unless the Devs clearly state they meant for it not to work.If absolutely nothing else, if he breaks the game we'll have a more informed opinion on why it shouldn't be allowed.