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So while fiddling with the swashbuckler and gunslinger classes I came to some startling realizations about how these classes function. Grit is essentially, a non magical equivalent to... magic. Deeds actually function similarly to spells and dare I say it, Maneuvers from ToB.
Stay with me now, let's take another look at the mechanic itself. We have classes who have their own lists of Deeds, much like casting classes have their own lists of spells.
Different classes have their Deeds and their grit/panache coming from different ability scores, like different spellcasters do.
Just looking at what could be done with it, I can really see an entire book coming out of this mechanic where Paizo could give us new Martial classes that are all based on the grit/panache mechanic and come up with comprehensive lists of Deeds and even have Deeds that cross over different lists.
I keep looking at the swashbuckler and keep thinking to myself how much I would like to play something with a 2 handed weapon who had access to some cool things like Deeds that weren't dictated by magic, but also weren't bland always on effects like weapon specialization.
The book could include new archetypes (and even the originals) for the Gunslinger and Swashbuckler, as well as introducing at least one more class who could have their 'grit' based on INT.
Ranged Combat
Dex based melee combat
Gun based combat
STR based melee combat
Unarmed melee combat
You could have classes based on all these derivatives of combat and give them unique Deeds lists that would be specific to their combat style, and including something like eligibility for fighter feats would really open up the martial classes to some cool combat options and it would do it in a way that there is already mechanics for.
It was just an idea I had, and it would be a cool direction for Paizo to go after the ACG given how much players are constantly talking about their desire for a ToB remake in order to give some more love to non magic users.
Doesn't have to be Paizo that runs with this...
Let's start, right here, right now.
...too bad all my creative juices are in a jumble trying to figure out how I could get a Bandersnatch as an animal companion.
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ok.
'deed progression':
Level 1 "Elementary" deeds gained at 1st level
Level 2 "Basic" deeds gained at 3rd level
Level 3 "Intermediate" deeds gained at 7th level
Level 4 "Advanced" deeds gained at 11th level
Level 5 "Master" deeds gained at 15th level
Level 6 "Epic" deeds gained at 19th level
'deed-performing stats/points':
Wisdom - "Grit"
Charisma - "Panache"
'deed lists':
Gunslinger Deeds
Swashbuckler Deeds
Intelligence - «Wits» ?
I imagine it would be a pretty dusty tome.
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I've always been supportive of more grit-oriented content. I've always seen INT as using Guile, personally. Oh, and my personal belief is that, with enough time, effort, and creativity; you could make at least one grit-type class for every single fighter weapon group and still have plenty of concepts left over.
As an example: Axes and Picks, using the "traditional" WIS-based Grit. Lumberjack, straight-up. Focused on multi-hits (like cleave), perhaps with a Grit-oriented pet.
Take the same group, make it INT-based Guile: Miner, focused on disabling traps and constructs, along with some armor-piercing/destroying effects.
Again, same group, but CHA-based Panache: Shiner (Or perhaps Dull Boy), focused on a Panache-augmenting "rage" that permits you to go - quite literally - Axe Crazy.
Those three were thought up in a matter of minutes, use the same equipment, yet are noticeable different.
This stuff can go far, yo.
There is also Ki (Ninja and Monk) and Arcana (Magus) which work on the same principle. I think they could be included as well.
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They should totally make this!
The title should be ...
ULTMATE BOOKKEEPING! ;)
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There is also Ki (Ninja and Monk) and Arcana (Magus) which work on the same principle. I think they could be included as well.
Eh... not really the same principle. Grit can be regenerated, and uses deeds. Ki and Arcana are both regen-once-a-day, and are used for various other abilities.
Plus, those classes have other things going for them for when they run out of ki/arcana, i.e. spells/sneak attack/flurry/whatever. Grit/Panache-users have Grit as their foundation, from which nigh-all of their abilities stem.
Doesn't have to be Paizo that runs with this...
Yes, it does. Otherwise, it is not "official."
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There is also Ki (Ninja and Monk) and Arcana (Magus) which work on the same principle. I think they could be included as well.Eh... not really the same principle. Grit can be regenerated, and uses deeds. Ki and Arcana are both regen-once-a-day, and are used for various other abilities.
Plus, those classes have other things going for them for when they run out of ki/arcana, i.e. spells/sneak attack/flurry/whatever. Grit/Panache-users have Grit as their foundation, from which nigh-all of their abilities stem.
Point taken, still you also expend points from your pool to get effects similar to spells (as it has been described by the OP), so they have similarity.
Doesn't have to be Paizo that runs with this...Yes, it does. Otherwise, it is not "official."
It certainly would help with PFS usage.
I used Cunning and Panache for a rogue grit pool when I did a rogue revision, and I think it worked out well. I think it's a solid mechanic.
This would actually be cool for a "Cunning Boxer" idea I had, an unarmed combatant who uses the sort of fighting style employed in the newest Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey, Jr. He analyzes the situation, figures out what to do, and then does it. It'd definitely be an Int-based Grit-style mechanic.
Maybe I'll work on this idea again/some more...
I'd most definitely buy it.
We did EXACTLY that in Tome of Munitions 2. Every class has a grit mechanic alternative.
A thought that came to mind is that this is an argument for a unified non-magical pool for Deeds/Ki powers/Rage/Performance/Tome of Battle Maneuvers. It's especially appealing to those who want the option to represent their martial characters with more than their physical ability scores.
But what kind of book would it be? The main line, Player Compainion, Campaign Setting? What size would you buy one for?
Given it'd be a book of class options I'd estimate Player Companion.
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Dreadfox Games's Swordmaster has a pretty awesome mechanic similar to deeds : the Dex/Int class knows specific actions that it may perform in combat and gains more of them as it levels. Basically each round, he may spend his round's action to start a customized combo out of openers/chain/finishers melee moves activated with different conditions and actions.
That's pure love for skilled players and pretty much what everyone wants the swashbuckler to feel like. It's like having a class with only deeds that can be used together in differents fashions and actually synergize together, allowing for highly mobile fights.
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It could be some nice gravy but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
I like my martials being able to do everything they can do all day long.
Martials do need work in terms of power level, but I'd like to see a Complete Warrior-style book, with lots of *really powerful* always-on feats and options (including stuff like the old Tactical Feats), a couple of PrCs and archetypes, and maybe only a smattering of deeds/panache/arcana/ki. I think there are other ways for a fighter to get on the caster's level (,bro).
I've always liked the fact that martials play differently from casters in 3.x. It's one of the reasons 4E felt a little samey to me.
And I'm not sure about requiring every martial to need Int, Wis or Cha. It leaves no room for the classic powerhouse soldier-type without wits, reason or a dashing smile, but with a lot of battlefield experience. That would further the power divide between martials and SAD casters.
I like my martials being able to do everything they can do all day long.
That's the thing about Deeds, you can do them all day long, but rather than having a list of class features of things the class always does, the Deeds are a list of abilities one has access to, much like a spell list.
Deeds are the martial equivalent of Spells, and Grit/Panache are the mechanics that fuel it. The specifics of Grit/Panache allow the character to regenerate their points based on combat prowess. You are basically guaranteed to get back your pool any time you land a crit or down an enemy. There are also DM fiat moments where the DM can just plain say: "That was awesome, you get back a grit point."
Cunning would be a fine name for an INT based Deeds list.
The main thing about the list of Deeds is it is a list of variable options available to martial characters that they have access to all of and not just the ones they waste their resources (feats) on. It adds something to the martial character that simply having an effective build does not.
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I like my martials being able to do everything they can do all day long.
That's the thing about Deeds, you can do them all day long, but rather than having a list of class features of things the class always does, the Deeds are a list of abilities one has access to, much like a spell list.
Deeds are the martial equivalent of Spells, and Grit/Panache are the mechanics that fuel it. The specifics of Grit/Panache allow the character to regenerate their points based on combat prowess. You are basically guaranteed to get back your pool any time you land a crit or down an enemy. There are also DM fiat moments where the DM can just plain say: "That was awesome, you get back a grit point."
Cunning would be a fine name for an INT based Deeds list.
The main thing about the list of Deeds is it is a list of variable options available to martial characters that they have access to all of and not just the ones they waste their resources (feats) on. It adds something to the martial character that simply having an effective build does not.
I'm of the opinion that you don't need to codify every little combat action you can in the rules take as a nonmagic character. There are circumstance bonuses, flavoring, creativity in description and lots of player/GM overrides in my games, but YMMV. I also play home games so the freedom allowed by a less codified martial system is a big deal to me. I guess it's different for PFS regulars.
You can't do that with spells, because spells are extremely specific magical effects that alter the world in specific ways. They aren't flavored as easily beyond 'my spell looks like this' because they have a lot more tags attached to them in terms of what they actually do.
I know deeds are martial spells, and that was kind of my point. I don't want those for my martial characters, because I like that they play differently are require less bookkeeping.
It could be some nice gravy but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
I like my martials being able to do everything they can do all day long.
Considering that Grit can be recovered it is possible to make Grit/Wits/Panache be recoverable through certain actions effectively making it a stamina mechanic. (take a rest and a Gatorade before you do those taxing abilities again.
Being sustainable is my main concern about martials with pool points as well.
Doesn't have to be Paizo that runs with this...Yes, it does. Otherwise, it is not "official."
This all depends on what the position of the buyer is with regard to "official". At my table "official" is what we are using currently, from Paizo, 3PP and our own homebrew... As Threeshades points out:
It certainly would help with PFS usage.
And I agree.
The the OP merely said Paizo "could" write it. I am happy for a 3PP to write it. I don't have any reason or desire to play PFS. And here we are in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew subforum.
And, as LRGG also pointed out:
We did EXACTLY that in Tome of Munitions 2. Every class has a grit mechanic alternative."
Just clarifying that I disagree Lord Fyre. But, yes, if Paizo did it too that would be interesting. Given that LRGG has explored this, Paizo would have a book to check out when doing their version.