Post your builds for these wander-lusting adventurer's. This is probably one of the best PrC's in the game, and a great class to dip 3 levels into. It's also one of the easier PrC's to qualify for considering it only requires 6 skill ranks in Knowledge (geography) and the Endurance feat. Rangers are a good way to go because they gain Endurance for free, another easy option is to play as a Half-Orc. These would be 2 great optimal choices because either one can save you from burning a feat if you're too stingy to, their may be some other great options (from a starting standpoint) but these 2 are the most obvious ones.
I'm not too experienced with the class considering I haven't had the chance to play as one yet. But I've heard nothing but good things about them and I'm very excited to play as one in an upcoming campaign (home-brew). So I was wondering if you guys could help me out and influence the direction I take my character.
The first option that came to mind was to play as a Lore Warden Fighter and take the Eldritch Heritage feats to gain access to some great abilities. Another thing I've been thinking about was choosing the Astral Plane to get Dim-Door once I gained access to Terrain Dominance, combining this with the Dimensional Agility feat chain and "possibly" whirlwind attack (this would be great if I could throw in some sneak attack damage and a nice crit range). If I were to play as a ranger I would probably try to find an archetype that replaces favored enemy because Horizon Walkers get a better version. I'm really open to suggestion right now.
I'd love to see some ideas/builds for this awesome PrC. I'm interested to what you guys got in mind for this.
I never had a solid build down for Horizon Walker, but I would suggest Ranger X/Rogue 2/Horizon Walker X. You want Rogue so you can get access to the Rogue Talent that gives you a Favored Terrain or increases all of your Terrains each time you take it... awesome for Horizon Walker. I'd probably use most of my feats on Extra Rogue Talent for that.
I remember reading a rules interaction of the spell Instant Enemy that somehow allowed it to work with Terrain Mastery, but I don't recall details or know how legit it was; maybe someone else will bring that up in this topic because I don't feel like searching for it.
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I never had a solid build down for Horizon Walker, but I would suggest Ranger X/Rogue 2/Horizon Walker X. You want Rogue so you can get access to the Rogue Talent that gives you a Favored Terrain or increases all of your Terrains each time you take it... awesome for Horizon Walker. I'd probably use most of my feats on Extra Rogue Talent for that.
I remember reading a rules interaction of the spell Instant Enemy that somehow allowed it to work with Terrain Mastery, but I don't recall details or know how legit it was; maybe someone else will bring that up in this topic because I don't feel like searching for it.
Yeah it allows you take the creature that is native to the terrain you have mastery in and cast it on an enemy and consider them to be that creature. Which means you get to add all your favored terrain bonuses to hit/damage/initiative/perception. This would be especially deadly if you're Ranger (Guide) because the focus ability stacks with it.
Ah so you take a Favored Enemy that's native to your Terrain Mastery? Ok that makes sense. I don't know why but it wasn't making sense to me at all before about how the interaction worked.
With that in mind I personally would start with Rogue 2 then Ranger until Horizon Walker. I don't know what level 1 feat would be, but beyond that every last feat would be Extra Rogue Talent. The Ranger bonus feat would be Power Attack.
Get a Stave with Instant Enemy and a cantrip on it so friendly mage can charge it for you. Enchant it as a quarterstaff and use it as your primary weapon. And then weep silently if it ever gets sundered.
With that in mind I personally would start with Rogue 2 then Ranger until Horizon Walker. I don't know what level 1 feat would be, but beyond that every last feat would be Extra Rogue Talent. The Ranger bonus feat would be Power Attack.
Get a Stave with Instant Enemy and a cantrip on it so friendly mage can charge it for you. Enchant it as a quarterstaff and use it as your primary weapon. And then weep silently if it ever gets sundered.
Well you could always just use wands for this :D
True, but wands of 3rd level spells are expensive consumables.
True, but wands of 3rd level spells are expensive consumables.
Also true, also I thought I would point out the spell Terrain Bond: You call upon the spirits of nature to help you adapt to your environment. You treat the terrain you are in as your most favored terrain until this spell ends.
That would be an amazing spell for a Horizon Walker... in case you were wondering a Stave of Instant Enemy/Terrain Bond/Light would cost 31,600 gold. I would totally go for it if I started at a decent level and was given WBL to spend. Someday maybe...
I would just go ranger 6/HW 3/Ranger X
I'd probably take the guide archetype for the ranger though. It just seems more efficient at this point since your AC would be -6 levels. For your 9, 11, and 13 feats just take the dimensional dervish feat chain, and do the switch hitter build on the early levels.
Yeah that's basically what I had in mind. Or the Lore Warden Fighter build. It would look something like this.
Human
1 LW Dodge, Power Attack
2 LW Mobility [Combat expertise]
3 LW Combat reflexes
4 LW Spring attack
5 LW Endurance
6 LW Whirlwind attack
7 HW Lunge, Favored terrain [Astral]
8 HW Favored terrain [Still deciding], Terrain mastery [Astral]
9 HW Dimensional Agility, Terrain dominance: Astral
10 LW
11 LW Dimensional Assault,
12 LW
13 LW Dimensional Dervish,
Still missing a few feats, probably would use a reach weapon. I think throwing in some crit feats would be a good idea.
Also came across the Spirit Ranger archetype which would allow spontaneous casting with a full spell list.
Edit: Could be useful but Guide is definitely the way to go. The only good thing about the spirit ranger 10 you can get 2 spontaneous castings a day with whatever you want (Instant Enemy).
My favorite horizon walker build goes ranger (spirit ranger) 6/ Horizon walker 3/ ranger (spirit ranger) 4/Horizon walker 6.
This basically gives me access to easy enemy, allows dim dervish, it is very entertaining (to look at). I've yet to test it out though.
while ive yet to stat it out, i've been toying with an idea for one that used the dimensional dervish feat line.
edit: seems like lerkz beat me to the punch there.
I would just go ranger 6/HW 3/Ranger X
I'd probably take the guide archetype for the ranger though. It just seems more efficient at this point since your AC would be -6 levels. For your 9, 11, and 13 feats just take the dimensional dervish feat chain, and do the switch hitter build on the early levels.
Yeah that's basically what I had in mind. Or the Lore Warden Fighter build. It would look something like this.
Human
1 LW Dodge, Power Attack
2 LW Mobility [Combat expertise]
3 LW Combat reflexes
4 LW Spring attack
5 LW Endurance
6 LW Whirlwind attack
7 HW Lunge, Favored terrain [Astral]
8 HW Favored terrain [Still deciding], Terrain mastery [Astral]
9 HW Dimensional Agility, Terrain dominance: Astral
10 LW
11 LW Dimensional Assault,
12 LW
13 LW Dimensional Dervish,Still missing a few feats, probably would use a reach weapon. I think throwing in some crit feats would be a good idea.
consider dimensional savant as a later feat (and a... menacing? weapon i think it was--it boosts flanking shenanigans), might be cool.
This is a build I made a while ago, might be worth updating (might have made some mistakes).
Dim Dervisher!
With instant enemy, he basically gains a +8 to hit & damage against a single enemy. Basically, I've got smite everything. Though if I ever DID play this build, I would NOT bring it to the ridiculous extreme (somewhere near +24 at level 20) so as to not drive the GM insane...
Edit: I wish I could find a way to cast "terrain bond" though.
Edit: I wish I could find a way to cast "terrain bond" though.
The duster is pretty sick though but I feel you on that, nice build by the way. I had this same concept but I'd much rather play as a Guide if I was a Ranger. The focus ability stacks with instant enemy plus you get Terrain Bond (Ex) at 4th level, its different from the spell though but highly useful.
Half-Orc Ranger (Warden) 1/Rogue 5/HW X
Woohoo, I found a use for the Warden archetype! On the Rogue side, whatever you want is fine; I like Bandit, or going Ninja instead.
Warden replaces FE with a FT at level 1. Remember to buy boots of friendly terrain.
Half-Orc Ranger (Warden) 1/Rogue 5/HW X
Woohoo, I found a use for the Warden archetype! On the Rogue side, whatever you want is fine; I like Bandit, or going Ninja instead.
Warden replaces FE with a FT at level 1. Remember to buy boots of friendly terrain.
I would recommend going Scout, its one of the best (IMO) and it also fits thematically. How many levels into Horizon Walker would you go? Basically 3 or 10 because you don't really benefit from the PrC any other way.
What are some of the other options available? I'm concerned about a ranged attack archer style Horizon Walker.
id almost say barbarian 1/ranger16/HW 3
You get the dimensional dervish chain, the ranger feats and favored enemy/instant enemy/guide bonuses/and then you can get rage from the barbarian though preferably focused rage from the urban barbarian archetype.
I actually do like this a lot and I could easily come up with a back story to make it work. Lets escape the marital aspect for a second and focus on nature. Do you think multiclassing Horizon Walker with Nature Warden would be an optimal choice? For an easy entry to Nature Warden you could go Ranger (Warden) 1/ Druid (Feral Child) 4
Honestly you really dont need ranger at all going nature warden. Just take the endurance feat at some point to fulfill the HW requirement. Not really sure 21 level of ranger gives you anything you actually need. The early favored terrain from the warden archetype isnt necessary unless you have a very specific build in mind.
I've just been tossing around ideas in my head. The only thing I'm sure of is that I really do want to play as a Horizon Walker, whether or not its a 3 level dip or a solid 10 level investment. Speaking of going all 10 levels, what would be the best class/archetypes to choose prior to the PrC? Is it even worth 10 levels? I just want to be a master of the land/world and still be able to lay the smack-down.
I think Nature Warden is a good choice, if you have high favored terrain bonuses in terrains you fight in a lot (underground, urban, forest...). At NW lvl 2 you get Mystic Harmony, which gives half your fav terrain bonus to AC. I have been been thinking about a build with the maximum number of fav terrains, and if you were to put every one in the same terrain, you could get +10 AC in that terrain. Plus, the HW's capstone, combined with Mystic Harmony, gives you +1 to AC everywere.
Yeah that's why I brought up the Nature Warden, I see the potential. Now all you need to do is find a way to cast Terrain Bond: You treat the terrain you are in as your most favored terrain until this spell ends. You would basically be a master of all terrain and be able to have crazy bonuses no matter where you're at. I guess my main goal is to have the highest possible bonus I can get.
I wonder about going Samsaran to get both Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond as spells at a reasonable level.
Something like Ranger 1/Rogue 2/Druid 3/HW 3/Druid 11?
Feats:
1. Power Attack
3. Endurance
5. Rogue Talent: Terrain Mastery
7. Rogue Talent: Terrain Mastery
9. Dimensional Agility
11. Natural Spell
13. Dim Assault
15. Dim Dervish
You would have both Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond as 3rd and 4th level spells on a full caster, Wild Shape to get a bunch of attacks to make good use of your Favored Enemy bonuses, and get Dimensional Dervish eventually.
Problem is that it definitely could take a while to get it up and running if you started low level. You would need to be level 11 for Instant Enemy access and 13 for Terrain Bond... The Rogue levels could be cut, but Terrain Mastery just feels so good.
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In regards to the Rangers taking Guide or Warden, does Instant Enemy actually *function* if you don't have the Favored Enemy class mechanic? It says "Select one of your favored enemy types," which implies that you would need to have one of said types for it to function.
Horizon Walker gives you favored enemy through Terrain Dominance
At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy.
It even scales better than the rangers.
If it works even without a Favored Enemy, it could finally make playing a Samsaran without abusing early-access spells amusing:
Race: Samsaran (Adding Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond to the Druid spell list).
That is through Mystic Past Life correct?
Edit: Thank you so much for this, I think I'm set on playing this. Would you want to help me stat it out?
I think saying Terrain Dominance gives you the Favored Enemy class feature is a bit of a stretch; it says you can treat your bonus as a Favored Enemy bonus, but that's not the same thing as having a Favored Enemy type that Instant Enemy requires.
Has here been some sort of official ruling on this? If your DM is cool with your interpretation it's much better for you, but yeah I don't see it myself, hence why I had a Ranger level in my last suggestion.
Boots of friendly terrain are a must for any horizon walker. Cheap 2,400 gp to increase an existing terrain bonus by +2. As long as your a ranger.
I think saying Terrain Dominance gives you the Favored Enemy class feature is a bit of a stretch; it says you can treat your bonus as a Favored Enemy bonus, but that's not the same thing as having a Favored Enemy type that Instant Enemy requires.
Has here been some sort of official ruling on this? If your DM is cool with your interpretation it's much better for you, but yeah I don't see it myself, hence why I had a Ranger level in my last suggestion.
I see your point, It was like 5 in the morning when I posted earlier. But at the same time I feel like instant enemy should still work because you gain favored enemy types within your terrain. I really want to build a Horizon Walker/ Nature Warden. For entry to Nature Warden you need BAB +4/Animal companion class feature*, favored terrain class feature, wild empathy class feature/Handle Animal 5 ranks, Knowledge (geography) 5 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks/Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells This is why druid came into play.
Also the problem I was having before (not being able to cast Terrain Bond as a spell was solved) Samsarans alternate racial trait Mystic Past Life allows to add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.
I need help fleshing out a build to make this happen. Assuming you cant cast instant enemy through a favored enemy through terrain dominance.
Not the best, but decent:
Str 10
Dex 16 (5pts +2 racial) +4 level (4th/8th/16th/20th)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 13 (3pts) +1 level (12th)
Wis 12 (2pts)
Cha 14 (5pts)
traits:
-militia (+1 to hit while flanking)
-???
feats:
ROG 1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Stealth)
ROG 3 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
ROG 5 - Endurance
ROG 7 - Hellcat Stealth
HW 8 - Skill Focus (Perception)
HW 9 - Dampen Presence
ROG 11 - Dimensional Agility
ROG 13 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (shadow)
ROG 15 - Dimensional Dervish
ROG 16 - Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
ROG 17 - Dimensional Savant
ROG 19 - ???
talents (total rogue level):
2 (2) - Combat Trick (dervish dance)
4 (4) - Offensive Defense
6 (6) - Trap Spotter, Minor Magic (Detect Magic)*
11 (8) - Weapon Training (Scimitar)
13 (10) - Feat (Dimensional Assault)
15 (12) - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, stealth, disable device, perception), Terrain Mastery*
17 (14) - Improved Evasion
19 (16) - Crippling Strike
* - bonus rogue talent from human FCB (remaining 5 spent on hp)
BAB: +15 (0/1/1/1/0/1 | 1/1/1 | 1/1/0/1/1/1/0/1/1/1/0)
Saves: 10/13/7 (before gear)
abilities:
Sneak attack (9d6)
Trapfinding (+8)
Trap Sense (+5)
Evasion (improved later)
Scout’s Charge
Skirmisher
Favored Terrain (Urban +6, Astral +4, Forest +2)
Terrain Mastery (Astral)
Terrain Dominance (Astral)
Notable gear to look out for:
-+X menacing heartseeker keen Scimitar
-headband of ninjutsu
-bane baldric
-ring of swarming stabs
-boots of soft step
-lots of oils of negate aroma
-lots of potions of heroism
-the ‘usual' defensive stuff (ring of protection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, etc.)
-the best light armor you can get your grubby little hands on (with enough max dex to not limit it)
Attack bonuses: weapon focus (+1), weapon enhancement (+1-5), bane baldric (+2), and heroism (+2). more with haste from a party member.
While flanking you get the above along with: +2 (flanking), +2 (menacing), and +1 (trait)
After setting up sneak--which is likely, given respectable stealth and HiPS in light and dark, from blindsight/sense, tremorsense, and scent--you hit them at flat-footed AC.
You also get +1d6 precision damage from the ring of swarming stabs and +2d6 from the bane baldric
The basics to the build...
Race: Samsaran (Adding Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond to the Druid spell list)
This is through their Alternate Racial Trait (THIS IS THE ANSWER TO MY PRAYERS! SEE BELOW)
Mystic Past Life (Su)Add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.
The build needs to meet the prerequisites for Nature Warden
So the build definitely needs to involve some druid levels, I would recommend at least 6. Because it...BAB +4/Animal companion class feature*, favored terrain class feature, wild empathy class feature/Handle Animal 5 ranks, Knowledge (geography) 5 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks/Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells.
Gets you 4th level druid spells (including being able to cast instant enemy as a swift action instead of as a standard) The ability to wild-shape 2x/day into a pouncing cat is decent synergy with having like +30 to attack and damage rolls.
But we still need the favored terrain class feature, we will gain this through the Horizon Walker levels which will come before hand. Now assuming Instant Enemy doesn't work through the Favored Enemy bonus through Terrain Dominance, we need to dip Ranger. Also if IE doesn't work through Terrain Dominance does it make this build completely pointless?
The main reason I wanted to mix Horizon Walker with Nature Warden (at least 2 levels) was for the +1 level of divine spellcasting class. Also the 4 class features the first 2 levels of Nature Warden provide incredible synergy with Horizon Walker. It makes your Terrain Bond extremely potent.
Rogue 2/ranger 3/ HW 3/ nature warden 2/HW 7/ xxxx2 for last 2 levels seems solid enough.
Rogue 2/ranger 3/ HW 3/ nature warden 2/HW 7/ xxxx2 for last 2 levels seems solid enough.
Okay but does Instant Enemy apply to the Favored Enemy through Terrain Dominance? Also I don't think your build qualifies for Nature Warden, you need to be able to caster 2nd level divine spells. So that wont do...
I believe only against the creatures that are native to your terrain. Since:
"At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy."
So if you face an enemy that is not from your terrain, instant enemy WOULD NOT work because you have no favored enemy ability to use instant enemy with.
If your facing a terrain native enemy, than you can cast instant enemy, but that's redundant because youcalreadychave bonuses to it by then.
You would need the actual favored enemy ability, hence why I suggested at least 1 level of ranger to qualify for it. Pick human, since they are always natives to every terrain, and then use the instant enemy on the enmy creatures to make it to the human which is a native to your terrain.
Essentially, using the actual FE:human as a link up between the ability and the spell. Otherwise it's a no go.
--------
Since you need only 1 level of ranger for the favored enemy ability for the Gerald build to work efficiently.
1 ranger/ 4 rogue/ nature warden 2/ HW 10/xxxx 3 or 3 rogue and 4xxxx.
Edit: samsaran race for mystic life will give spells that are up to 2nd level. So you qualify from that. SLA can now be useable for access to abilities, feats, and so forth. Recent FAQ.
I believe only against the creatures that are native to your terrain. Since:
"At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures. This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy."
So if you face an enemy that is not from your terrain, instant enemy WOULD NOT work because you have no favored enemy ability to use instant enemy with.
If your facing a terrain native enemy, than you can cast instant enemy, but that's redundant because youcalreadychave bonuses to it by then.
You would need the actual favored enemy ability, hence why I suggested at least 1 level of ranger to qualify for it. Pick human, since they are always natives to every terrain, and then use the instant enemy on the enmy creatures to make it to the human which is a native to your terrain.
Essentially, using the actual FE:human as a link up between the ability and the spell. Otherwise it's a no go.
See my previous post, I edited it.
Are Humans native to the Astral Sea too? They would need to be if you wanted Dimensional Door as a SLA and only three levels of Horizon Walker.
What if only some of the enemies of your Favored Enemy are from your Favored Terrain? For instance there is an Aberration from the Astral Sea. If I picked Aberration as my Favored Enemy, could I cast Instant Enemy on anything and have it count as being from the Astral Sea because some Aberrations are from there?
It's s~@+ like this that kinda makes me mad about how Horizon Walker is worded. Would have been so much simpler if you just got something like half your Favored Terrain bonus as Favored Enemy versus anything you fight while in your Favored Terrain.
So would I even need Instant enemy because now that I think about it, If I just cast Terrain Bond they become a favored enemy from my most favored terrain? Okay I just saw your edit.
So would I even need Instant enemy because now that I think about it, If I just cast Terrain Bond they become a favored enemy? Okay I just saw your edit.
The enemies need to be native to the Terrain for you to get the bonus against them, not just in the Terrain... which would make things much easier.
My brain hurts...
The problem is this. To use instant enemy you need a favored enemy. The HW dominance ability gives you your terrain ability bonus as a favored enemy bonus. If on the chance that the ability functions like favored enemy, it still doesn't help because if you face a foe not from your terrain, there is no bonus. No bonus, no favored enemy; no favored enemy, no instant enemy. You would have to make the terrain that the creature is from a favored terrain you have dominance in, to then get the favored ability to it.
If the creature is from your terrain, it now has a favored bonus against it. And if that's the case why need instant enemy to it?
Essentially, you need at minimum 1 static Favored Enemy to use as a conduit for the ability to work so you can link the creature to your favored terrain and thusly favored enemy, to use instant enemy.
I get what you're saying Grizzly, but what confuses me is this: Is one creature from the Favored Enemy type being native to the terrain sufficient for Instant Enemy to work?
I'm randomly grabbing a creature that says "Environment: Any." Hound of Tindalos is an Evil Outsider that can be from anywhere. If I chose Evil Outsider as my Favored Enemy could I use Instant Enemy to link any creature to any Terrain Dominance?
How optimal would you say this build is? The one you suggested.
1 ranger/ 4 rogue/ nature warden 2/ HW 10/xxxx 3 or 3 rogue and 4xxxx.
I get what you're saying Grizzly, but what confuses me is this: Is one creature from the Favored Enemy type being native to the terrain sufficient for Instant Enemy to work?
I'm randomly grabbing a creature that says "Environment: Any." Hound of Tindalos is an Evil Outsider that can be from anywhere. If I chose Evil Outsider as my Favored Enemy could I use Instant Enemy to link any creature to any Terrain Dominance?
Yeah that's why I said my brain hurt haha.
I don't see why you would really go more than 2 Rogue. I'm assuming you're only using it for Terrain Rogue Talent, but once you have one talent you can just get that from a feat.