I'm sure There will be archetypes that replace casting, much like the Paladin and Ranger have archetypes that replace casting, but despite being sort of a Full BAB 4/9 caster model, does Bloodrager really need spells.
I bring this up because Bloodrager is the posterboy for needing his own spell list, but there's a reluctance for new spell lists in this new book because of space, time, backwards, compatability, ect.
But what if the Bloodrager gained spells it needs as Spell-like Abilities through Bloodline powers or Bloodrage powers? Or just that the Bloodlines were more dynamic? Would the Bloodrager need 4 levels of casting?
This is just a thought, feel free to back me up if it's a good idea or put it down if it's a bad idea.
I would tend to agree; the bloodline powers are sufficiently powerful & unique at this point that I believe they could easily do away with spells... Maybe to give access to more rage powers?
We waited too long already for a full bab arcane caster so yes he needs the spells.
I would tend to agree; the bloodline powers are sufficiently powerful & unique at this point that I believe they could easily do away with spells... Maybe to give access to more rage powers?
At that point it isn't a hybrid between two classes, it's at best an archetype.
every...possible...option...must...be...represented...
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Before I start, I have to admit that I haven't read the ACG yet and so I don't know exactly what the Bloodrager does. I think my argument holds up regardless though.
It seems like the main argument for the Bloodrager having spells is that Pathfinder doesn't have a full-BAB, arcane 4/9-caster despite there being two such divine casters. My question is, why is it that people want one in the first place?
I admit, I wanted one too for a while. But the truth is, I didn't want one because I thought it would be a fun class to play-- I wanted one because the OCD in me looked at the class lineup and saw an empty void. I didn't want to PLAY this martial arcanist, I just wanted him to EXIST so that the selection of classes didn't feel "lopsided".
Is that really a good enough reason? The only real functional difference between arcane and divine spells is that divine spells typically expect a code of conduct or alignment restriction, while arcane spells impose a spell failure chance if you're wearing armor. Which is the bigger drawback for a full-BAB combat caster? Arcane. So doesn't it make sense that there WOULDN'T be a full-BAB arcane caster?
What do arcane spells do that divine spells don't do? Not much. The only real difference there is that arcane spells can't heal effectively, and divine spells are awkward at blasting. Does a full-BAB character want to cast blasts? Not really-- that's what he carries a sword and bow for. Does he want to heal? He's a melee-capable character, and that means he's taking damage, so yes. If you're a martial first and caster a distant second, what spells do you really want to cast? Self-buffs. Both arcane and divine have that base well and truly covered. So what does this martial arcanist gain from being arcane instead of divine?
More importantly, what does PATHFINDER gain from an arcane fighter, other than the ability to say that it has one?
Like I said, I haven't seen a Bloodrager in action, so I can't really comment on whether or not it needs spells. But to those of you who DO comment, I would just ask you to consider the Bloodrager's own merits and how its spells complement its other functions-- not just because you want to slot it into an imaginary hole in Pathfinder's class system.
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It seems like the main argument for the Bloodrager having spells is that Pathfinder doesn't have a full-BAB, arcane 4/9-caster despite there being two such divine casters. My question is, why is it that people want one in the first place?
I admit, I wanted one too for a while. But the truth is, I didn't want one because I thought it would be a fun class to play-- I wanted one because the OCD in me looked at the class lineup and saw an empty void. I didn't want to PLAY this martial arcanist, I just wanted him to EXIST so that the selection of classes didn't feel "lopsided".
These were my main thoughts. But overall I hate the Paladin and Ranger casting so I became reluctant to wish it upon another class. The only reason why I 'wanted' a full BAB arcane caster was because divine and 'nature' magic had one. (disregarding that 'science' and non-deitic otherworlder magic has been introduced so would require one as well.)
Bloodlines and spell-like abilities seem like enough magic to make the class feel like a mix to me.
my argument for it is the bloodrager is the sith to the paladins jedi.
and i like my sith with scary magic that is brutal and destructuve.
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I want it because I don't want to play a ranger and deal with its goofy nature spell list and 20' shorter expeditious retreat (Longstrider). I want it because I don't want to play a paladin and deal with its self buff and heal spell list, and I sure don't want to burn a precious feat on the one that gives Pal's some wizard spells. I don't want my character to be themed a naturey hunter or a holy smiter of evil. I want an up front, tough as nails, face splitter who can pop invisible, enlarge himself, then pop out behind the enemy lines and wreck face.
I understand that some of this *theme* has already been covered by the gimmicky magus, and taking on the Magus' narrow spell list unfortunately adds to the duplication; however, the Full/4 arcane class should excel at combat more than the casty superior magus.
Actually the theme has not been covered by the magus.
The magus covers the 'fighter/caster' thing but it doesn't cover the seething brutal aspects of magic. We don't have an angry caster yet -- we don't have natsu, anakin, darth vader, or any other dread brutal type.
The closest we currently have is the rage prophet, and that's divine.
Personally I will be very disappointed if all we get is another self buffer but with rage guy.
I don't mind if that's available as a choice, but if that is all the class is then I have to question the need for it in any way shape or form.
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Bloodragers need spells. Full BAB, Arcane spellcaster. Needs to happen. Either bloodrager gets spells or we remove them and make brawlers or slayers arcane casters. Bloodrager makes the most sense however because a spellcaster is involved in the hybrid. Also makes it cool for you to get really angry and explode (ring of evasion+fireball=fun). Bloodragers need spells.
I like the sith analogy...kinda making me interested in the class now.
Giving the slayer arcane spells and making them kinda an antiranger is something worth bouncing around.
at 4/9 casting I'm not sure if the sith analogy actually sticks aside from shocking grasp. Wouldn't a similar effect be achieved if bloodlines had more arcane power that scaled with the Bloodrager rather than 4 levels of a stripped down arcane list.
Second thought, wouldn't it be served better if it had a 1-4 Sorcerer/Wizard list? the Magus does not get many spells earlier so it's just kind of a Sor/Wiz list with less versatility. (note I have yet to test Bloodrager but Dragonrider had adequate casting ability.
at 4/9 casting I'm not sure if the sith analogy actually sticks aside from shocking grasp. Wouldn't a similar effect be achieved if bloodlines had more arcane power that scaled with the Bloodrager rather than 4 levels of a stripped down arcane list.
Second thought, wouldn't it be served better if it had a 1-4 Sorcerer/Wizard list? the Magus does not get many spells earlier so it's just kind of a Sor/Wiz list with less versatility. (note I have yet to test Bloodrager but Dragonrider had adequate casting ability.
Shocking grasp is one choice but you could go burning hands, magic missile or other such spells. Again it is an analogy not an exact copy (especially since this is pathfinder and not star wars).
The magus list isn't sophisticated and the spell levels are low, but I'm good with that.
The bloodrager doesn't strike me as the sophisticated type -- he's the blow your brains out with what works directly type (to me). The subtleties of higher level spells and the study or work for them aren't his sort of thing, he's more the get in there and kick butt magically and physically type.
Simple, but brutal and unstoppable. You don't fear getting in his way because you don't think he can hurt him -- you fear getting in his way because he knows he can hurt you and that is his only purpose... self preservation comes in a very distant second or third place to kicking your butt.
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the problem with a spell level 1-4 caster is the spells don't have the DC's to make effective offensive spells by the time you access them.
so either they self target and buff ...boring or you give them a bunch of attack roll no save spells where the DC doesn't factor in.
Or
instead of giving them a spell list you give them access to a large suite of spell like abilities that have increasing DC's with hit dice.
either way its a cool class purely as a full BAB CHA class would make a fun mouth of the party.
Which would be my argument for an ability that increases damage dealt and spell DC while raging.
My idea was the following:
Rampaging spell
Replaces uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, and the damage reduction.
when casting a spell that does damage adds class level to the spell damage, double when raging. at the damage reduction levels it also increases the spell dc by 1 when raging. the dc increase increases each time the bloodrager would have gotten another point of DR.
Which would be my argument for an ability that increases damage dealt and spell DC while raging.
My idea was the following:
Rampaging spell
Replaces uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, and the damage reduction.
when casting a spell that does damage adds class level to the spell damage, double when raging. at the damage reduction levels it also increases the spell dc by 1 when raging. the dc increase increases each time the bloodrager would have gotten another point of DR.
Same diff really.
your either adding a bunch of special rules to augment existing spells to perform at an adequate level
or
you cut out the middleman and make new spell/spell like abilites that perform at the appropriate level.
considering they've stated they're looking into a bloodrager spell list I'd say they're just going to create spell that will simply bypass the limitations of existing level 1-4 spells. or spells that will augment melee attacks (although this is starting to tread on the magus)
Also there one other issue of the ole globe of invulnerability which would effectively negate any offensive spells a bloodrager might want to throw.
what more do you need for an abyssal blood rager then rhyme spell+frots bite, courngun smash (how ever the hell you spell it) and Str to intimidate... man i cant wait to play this debuffer, so much awesomeness.
Why abyssal? I guess I'm missing something.