Let's say I have 6th level Barbarian with natural attacks claws and bite. And now when my BAB is 6 I get additional attack during full attack(I understand it's attack with one body part). Can I after I finish all my natural attacks take greatsword with Quick Draw feat (free action) and attack with it?
Will it make my natural attacks secondary?
The question arises because just before quick drawing my sword I use only natural attacks, my arms aren't preoccupied with anything and so for me it seems strange that the first 3 attacks are secondary.
So is it:
+6 claw; +6 claw; +6 bite; +1 greatsword
OR
+1 claw; +1 claw; +1 bite; +1 greatsword
?
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You can't use your claws and then use those same limbs to attack with a weapon in the same round.
You could +6 claw; +6 claw; +6 bite or +6 greatsword; +1 greatsword; +1 bite.
There's a FAQ that's pretty much spot on in regards to this I believe.
Let's say I have 6th level Barbarian with natural attacks claws and bite. And now when my BAB is 6 I get additional attack during full attack(I understand it's attack with one body part). Can I after I finish all my natural attacks take greatsword with Quick Draw feat (free action) and attack with it?
Will it make my natural attacks secondary?
The question arises because just before quick drawing my sword I use only natural attacks, my arms aren't preoccupied with anything and so for me it seems strange that the first 3 attacks are secondary.So is it:
+6 claw; +6 claw; +6 bite; +1 greatsword
OR
+1 claw; +1 claw; +1 bite; +1 greatsword
?
Natural attacks are always secondary if you full attack with both naturals and weapons. I never thought of full attack with natural weapons then quick draw with manifactured's, but it may be possible, probably. Anyway, It would be: +1 claws and bite and +6/+1 greatsword.
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When I saw the title of this thread I assumed it was to full attack with naturals (claw claw bite) and then quick draw greatsword (or even better a reach weapon) for AoOs. Then, on your next turn, drop weapon, pounce and repeat. The thought of leaving a trail of weapons is rather amusing.
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What Blackstorm said.
Posts by designers on other similar topics have clearly shown that attacks are considered on the whole when deciding how they work. Ie, you decide at the beginning of the turn how you will attack (which action, which weapons, TWF or not). There is an exception of deciding after your first attack that you will do a move action rather than keep on full attacking. But that is just it : an exception.
Note that what Avianfoo suggested is quite legit too. Too bad that they nerfed weapon cords.
Sniggvert, as I understand that rule means I cannot make claw attack if my hand is preoccupied by sword. Though I might be wrong.
Blackstorm, thanks for your answer, but thanks to it I have one more question.
Can I make additional attack from high BAB as the first one, then drop the weapon and make usual natural attacks?
Basically: +6 Greatsword; +1 claw; +1 claw; +1 bite
or that additional attack has to be at the end
+1 claw; +1 claw; +1 bite; +1 greatsword.
Avianfoo, I'm planning to carry 5 greatswords. :D Do full attack, then drop greatsword and continue till I'm out of greatswords.
The Black Raven, thanks for clarifying, now I got that.
The simplest way to look at it is if I have. A 2h sworf and two claw attacks on the hands using the sword that nothing in the game (that I am aware of) will let me use the sword and those two claws in the same round.
OK, so I cannot do that unless I have 2 vestigal arms discoveries from alchemist. :( But I can prepare for AoO. :)
Right at which point your getting into a grey area that already has its own threadnaught.
Sniggvert, as I understand that rule means I cannot make claw attack if my hand is preoccupied by sword. Though I might be wrong.
On a side note, full attacking with greatsword, drop it and full attack with natural attacks should be fine.
Blackstorm, thanks for your answer, but thanks to it I have one more question.
Can I make additional attack from high BAB as the first one, then drop the weapon and make usual natural attacks?
Basically: +6 Greatsword; +1 claw; +1 claw; +1 bite
or that additional attack has to be at the end
+1 claw; +1 claw; +1 bite; +1 greatsword.
If you full attack, you always get the full iterative bab attacks with greatsword (so +6/+1) AND you can full attack with your nat weapons at -5 (so +1 for all of them). However, if you had your hand occupied, obviously you can't make the natural attack with it. You alwys had the option to drop your weapon and go on with natural weapons.
I am fairly confident that RAI is (for a normal two-armed humanoid) you cannot attack with claws and a two-handed weapon in the same full attack under any circumstances, and you cannot attack with any natural weapons and a manufactured weapon in the same full attack without taking the -5 penalty.
On a side note, full attacking with greatsword, drop it and full attack with natural attacks should be fine.
Not quite. If you mean that on round one you could attack with a greatsword and then on round 2 you could drop that greatsword and full attack with natural attacks then you are correct. Swinging the greatsword at all in the round will prevent you from using your hands to do any other atatcks, including claws attacks, on that same round.
This of course precludes having extra arms or the like, which gets into another discussion very quickly.
Suffice it to say, assuming your normal two handed humanoid you will never get to attack with a greatsword and claws in the same round.
Suffice it to say, assuming your normal two handed humanoid you will never get to attack with a greatsword and claws in the same round.
This is correct.
Rules citation for the curious:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
I'm puzzled... As I get different responses I will try to clearly state what I'm not understanding entirely.
The rules state:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
As far as my understanding goes it effectively means that a character (BAB<6) with claws and bite attacks, with two arms can:
- make attack with 2h weapon and bite
- make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite
- make attack with two 1h weapons and bite
- make attack with 2 claws and bite
Such character CANNOT
-make attack with 2h weapon and bite then drop the weapon and make 2 claw attacks
- make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite then drop the weapon and make claw attack
- make attack with two 1h weapons and bite then drop the weapon and make claw attacks
As I understand when character reaches BAB=6 character gets additional attack with one body part (usually a limb). So, that character can make additional attack with that body part in such ways:
- (make attack with 2h weapon and bite) AND either attack with 2h sword or bite, not both / I think such character also should be able to drop 2h weapon and make additional attack with claw instead of additional bite or 2h weapon attack
- (make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite) AND 1h weapon or one claw or bite, just one of those
- (make attack with two 1h weapons and bite) AND attack with one 1h weapon or bite / I also think it is possible to drop one 1h weapon and make one claw attack resulting in: attack with two 1h weapons, bite and claw
- (make attack with 2 claws and bite) AND 1 claw or 1 bite, not both / I also think it should be possible to use quick draw to equip one or both of free hands with manufactured weapon and use that weapon to make additional attack
Basically I understand that additional attack should be treated as if one limb becomes unused limb (different limb) and character can use it whatever ways it wants. That's how I interpret this rule.
Is it correct?
As far as my understanding goes it effectively means that a character (BAB<6) with claws and bite attacks, with two arms can:
- make attack with 2h weapon and bite
- make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite
- make attack with two 1h weapons and bite
- make attack with 2 claws and bite
Correct!
Such character CANNOT
-make attack with 2h weapon and bite then drop the weapon and make 2 claw attacks
- make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite then drop the weapon and make claw attack
- make attack with two 1h weapons and bite then drop the weapon and make claw attacks
Correct!
As I understand when character reaches BAB=6 character gets additional attack with one body part (usually a limb). So, that character can make additional attack with that body part in such ways:
- (make attack with 2h weapon and bite) AND either attack with 2h sword or bite, not both / I think such character also should be able to drop 2h weapon and make additional attack with claw instead of additional bite or 2h weapon attack
- (make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite) AND 1h weapon or one claw or bite, just one of those
- (make attack with two 1h weapons and bite) AND attack with one 1h weapon or bite / I also think it is possible to drop one 1h weapon and make one claw attack resulting in: attack with two 1h weapons, bite and claw
- (make attack with 2 claws and bite) AND 1 claw or 1 bite, not both / I also think it should be possible to use quick draw to equip one or both of free hands with manufactured weapon and use that weapon to make additional attack
Incorrect! I think! Because that last block is done in a confusing way, since it's a confusing topic.
But! At 6 BAB, you don't get an extra attack with one body part. You get an extra attack with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes. You do NOT get an extra natural weapon attack.
See here for a developer explaining this.
And the rest of a thread for the same topic as yours.
Basically I understand that additional attack should be treated as if...
I'm puzzled... As I get different responses I will try to clearly state what I'm not understanding entirely.
The rules state:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.As far as my understanding goes it effectively means that a character (BAB<6) with claws and bite attacks, with two arms can:
- make attack with 2h weapon and bite
- make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite
- make attack with two 1h weapons and bite
- make attack with 2 claws and bite
Such character CANNOT
-make attack with 2h weapon and bite then drop the weapon and make 2 claw attacks
- make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite then drop the weapon and make claw attack
- make attack with two 1h weapons and bite then drop the weapon and make claw attacks
This is correct to this part.
As I understand when character reaches BAB=6 character gets additional attack with one body part (usually a limb). So, that character can make additional attack with that body part in such ways:
- (make attack with 2h weapon and bite) AND either attack with 2h sword or bite, not both / I think such character also should be able to drop 2h weapon and make additional attack with claw instead of additional bite or 2h weapon attack
- (make attack with 1h weapon, one claw and bite) AND 1h weapon or one claw or bite, just one of those
- (make attack with two 1h weapons and bite) AND attack with one 1h weapon or bite / I also think it is possible to drop one 1h weapon and make one claw attack resulting in: attack with two 1h weapons, bite and claw
- (make attack with 2 claws and bite) AND 1 claw or 1 bite, not both / I also think it should be possible to use quick draw to equip one or both of free hands with manufactured weapon and use that weapon to make additional attackBasically I understand that additional attack should be treated as if...
However, you ONLY get the iterative attack with manufactured weapons. You do NOT get iterative attacks with natural attacks. The number of natural attacks do not increase with BAB.
The only thing that changes between +5 BAB and +6 BAB in your first set of examples above, is that you can make an additional attack with the 2 handed weapon or one 1 handed weapon (you need improved two weapon fighting to get an additional off hand weapon attack)
Ok. Thank you for explaining.
Now I understand.
But if I have 3. arm (Vestigal arm alchemist discovery) and I have 1h weapon in it. And my BAB is larger than 6.
Then can I attack with 2 claws and bite (both are treated as secondary) and then I make attack with 3. hand (that 1h weapon) (obviously with -5 penalty on attack).
Does it work?
It sounds like since this is a source of confusion, it may not be the best idea to pursue that character idea.
It sounds like since this is a source of confusion, it may not be the best idea to pursue that character idea.
Yeah, I will redesign this character. Thankfully, currently it's only 1st level.
But I still want to understand how those rules work.
Ok. Thank you for explaining.
Now I understand.
But if I have 3. arm (Vestigal arm alchemist discovery) and I have 1h weapon in it. And my BAB is larger than 6.
Then can I attack with 2 claws and bite (both are treated as secondary) and then I make attack with 3. hand (that 1h weapon) (obviously with -5 penalty on attack).
Does it work?
I'm going to leave out adressing veztigil arms there are numerous poats arguing for or against tgis based on the never adds additionsl attacks line. However what that means is really up to your dm.
A charachter with 3 arms a sword and two claws a biye and a +6 bab has the following attacks.
Sword +6/+1 2claws +1 bite +1.
I really dont recomend going into murky gtey areas of the rules unlesd you are fully clear on them.
Ok. Thank you for explaining.
Now I understand.
But if I have 3. arm (Vestigal arm alchemist discovery) and I have 1h weapon in it. And my BAB is larger than 6.
Then can I attack with 2 claws and bite (both are treated as secondary) and then I make attack with 3. hand (that 1h weapon) (obviously with -5 penalty on attack).
Does it work?Yes. You are entitled to your existing two manufactured attacks, and the vestigial arm frees up your claw-hands. Natural attacks are always considered secondary when also using weapons, so your routine would involve:
Sword+6/Sword+1/claw+1/claw+1/bite+1
Ok, thank you. Does feat multiattack make it:
Sword+6/Sword+1/claw+4/claw+4/bite+4 ?
Everyone, thank you
Suffice it to say, assuming your normal two handed humanoid you will never get to attack with a greatsword and claws in the same round.This is correct.
Rules citation for the curious:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
Right, I didn't check.