I did some research on this, but I still have some questions.
I guess first off, can a wizard take 10 on the spellcraft check to learn a new spell? It seems that DC 15+ Spell level is really easy with a 10. Also, is there a cost after that check is successful like that table for 10g for first level 40g for second and so on.
Also, can a wizard learn spells from a witches familiar?
Yes you can take 10.
You are correct in the cost of the spell. Writing a spell into your spellbook costs spell lvl squared X 10 in gold pieces. If you are borrowing an NPC wizard's spellbook the usual cost is half what it cost to write the spell(s) into your spellbook, but it is ultimately a GM decision.
I am unsure whether or not a wizard can be taught spells by a Witch Familiar.
Samasboy1 is correct, assuming the GM doesn't deviate from the standard price. The rule that states that you pay NPC wizards for the service of borrowing their spellbook does state that for rare spells it might be considerably more.
Though if you 'scribe' your spells with Secret Page, there is no cost for scribing.
That is not true.
Nothing in the text of the secret page spell actually allows you to scribe a spell with it - only to make a spell that is already scribed appear to be (but not actually be) a different spell.
"The text of a spell can be changed to show another spell of equal or lower level known by the caster."
And if it shows another spell, you can prepare the other spell just fine.
Secret page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different.
The spell does say that it appears to be different, not that the text (or spell) actually changes. But I understand how one could think otherwise by RAW. RAI is very clear that it isn't supposed to actually let you prepare from the "fake" spell.
Disagree, the RAI is clearly that they did intend for you to be able to prepare from the fake spell.
If you look at how they changed the specific text from 3.5 to pathfinder. You'll find that they in fact changed the part where you can turn a spell into a different spell.
If that was not the intent, they would have said something like: you can't turn the text of a spell into a different spell.
I'm sorry... When I write RAI I mean Rules as Intended... Are you trying to tell me that by casting an inexpensive third level spell that you should be able to change what spells are in your spellbook? Wouldn't that undermine the system that has been set up for adding spells to your spellbook? The wording might be unclear on the RAW, but can you honestly tell me that you think it is okay for RAI?
If you look at how they changed the specific text from 3.5 to pathfinder. You'll find that they in fact changed the part where you can turn a spell into a different spell.
They changed "The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell." into "The text of a spell can be changed to show another spell of equal or lower level known by the caster"
That change clarifies what illusion the caster can make to be a spell which they are familiar with the appearance of (one that they know) that does not occupy more space in the spellbook (equal or lower level).
The change made for Pathfinder doesn't let you put a spell you don't already know into your spellbook, so it doesn't have the ability you declared it to have to bypass the spell scribing costs.
As for being able to prepare the spell that you have changed the text into through secret page... I feel strongly that if you can suffer the effects of a hidden explosive runes or sepia snake sigil spell by reading the text created by secret page, that the change to the text does not actually make it into what it appears to be (and the spell is, in my mind, mislabeled as transmutation when it is clearly an illusion)
I'd never thought of trying to do that with secret page. I guess the question would be, say you know a bunch of spells and want to hide one spell behind another, can you do this to save pages and scribing costs? It seems like you can, maybe, but I would never have thought that would be intentional. But the change from 3.5 to PF is sort of noticeable.
I think you can do that , seebs. It seem interesting way to double the page count of your traveling spellbook. A dispel magic can create some trouble for you so it is not so foolproof.
Remember that you have to cast the spell once for each page. So it will work if you have a good quantity of downtime. 3rd level spells are a limited resource until you are fairly high in level.
To save pages, yes. To save scribing costs, eh.... I don't know if using the spell to write the illusory page mitigates the normal cost of scribing the spell.
I don't know if using the spell to write the illusory page mitigates the normal cost of scribing the spell.
It can't.
You can only make a secret paged spell look like a spell you know, and the rules don't provide any way for a spellbook using class to know a spell without having scribed it into their spellbook
I don't know if using the spell to write the illusory page mitigates the normal cost of scribing the spell.
It can't.
You can only make a secret paged spell look like a spell you know, and the rules don't provide any way for a spellbook using class to know a spell without having scribed it into their spellbook
You would reduce the cost of your reserve copy. Most spellcaster with a spellbook will keep a reserve copy somewhere. Making a copy of a spell you already know cost less than writing the it the first time, but it still has a cost.
Also, spell mastery. Although it's not clear why you'd need it in your spellbook if you have spell mastery.
Also, I *think* that, if you currently have a spell prepped, and you lose your spellbook, you can scribe from memory, but I am not sure whether that's an actual rule anywhere.
Also, spell mastery. Although it's not clear why you'd need it in your spellbook if you have spell mastery.
Spell mastery allows you to prepare some spells that you already know without your spellbook - it does not change the fact that learning a spell (making it known, rather than unknown) requires scribing it into your spellbook, which has an associated cost that is only bypassed in the specific instance of scribing the 2 spells you learn when gaining a level.
seebs wrote:
Also, I *think* that, if you currently have a spell prepped, and you lose your spellbook, you can scribe from memory, but I am not sure whether that's an actual rule anywhere.
You can rebuild your entire spellbook regardless of what spells you have prepared - otherwise there could not be a difference between your spellbook and any other spellbook (since you wouldn't actually know the spells you've personally scribed into the book any better - mechanically - than the spells in any other book out there).
I always assumed that if you lost your spellbook, you were sorta screwed, and back to read magic plus anything you had available, and would have to recreate it. The thing that makes it yours is that you are familiar with your notation; you can't just write the spells down without access to the book any more than you can just prep them without access.
Losing a spellbook does "sorta screw" you considering that you must pay to scribe each and every spell that you know, even the ones that were originally free because you learned them when gaining a level.
I did, however, get one little detail a bit wrong - you can't just jot down your known spells into a replacement spellbook: you have to write it from memory (prepared, and then counts as having been cast) or borrow a copy of the spells that you know in order to copy them... and, of course, you can also learn new spells if the borrowed spellbook contains spells you don't know and you pass the necessary check.
Interesting.
Secret Page does not "scribe" a spell in your book. It does make a spell look like an equal or lesser spell that you know at the time of the casting. It would save pages but I don't think you could more than double the effective pages.
Dispel Magic becomes an issue.
Writing a backup copy (which would normally cost half) would cost full as this would be the first scribing of those spells stored via Secret Page, and half for the original text ones that were scribed.
Scribe cost is just 10*(Spell level)^2 + access cost which is; free from a friend(whose book you can copy) or your own book or items found in scenario chronicle sheets; half the scribe cost from an NPC; the cost of a scroll. Scribing the spell a second and further time is half cost.
Scribing in a Blessed Book ($12500) is free for the first 1000 pages.
If you "lost your book" you can only scribe what you have memorized, then what you have access to. As this would be a duplicate, it is at half cost. You still must pay the usual access cost, if any.
Cypher Script Feat is well worth getting as this will save you half the scribe cost and only take 10 min (5min for cantrips).
Spell mastery allows you to prepare some spells that you already know without your spellbook - it does not change the fact that learning a spell (making it known, rather than unknown) requires scribing it into your spellbook,
That is not true. See the magic section, specifically the Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks section.
Quote:
"A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook,"
Or in other words, spells known is something different than recorded in your spellbook.
And if we look at this part:
Quote:
"wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook"
I'd say that if you understand a spell it counts as spell you know since they are basically synonyms.
Show me some rules quote that says you learn a spell, but does not also say "and can copy it into his spellbook" and I might consider believing that the initial processes of learning a spell as a spellbook using class doesn't require scribing it.
Here's some food for thought
Spells Gained at a New Level wrote:
Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook.
That means that either "add to his spellbook" is part of learning the spell, or that Wizards don't actually learn spells when gaining levels.
Show me some rules quote that says you learn a spell, but does not also say "and can copy it into his spellbook" and I might consider believing that the initial processes of learning a spell as a spellbook using class doesn't require scribing it.
Sure. See the spellcraft rules:
"Learning a spell from a spellbook takes 1 hour per level of the spell"
"l. If you fail to learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll, you must wait at least 1 week before you can try again."
So in order to use a scroll you must first learn the spell. Then you can either scribe it in your spellbook or cast the spell on the scroll. If you just cast it from the scroll you've learned the spell but it is not and does not end up in your spellbook.
This well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked.
A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the material cost. This book is never found As randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it.
Construction RequirementsCraft Wondrous Item, secret page; Cost 6,250 gp
///////
I bolded the relevant portion.
Of course you can use Secret Page to scribe spells into your book. And of course that is the RAI and RAW.
That means that either "add to his spellbook" is part of learning the spell, or that Wizards don't actually learn spells when gaining levels.
They don't automatically learn spells when they level up. They simply add two to their spell book.
This is why if they go into a prestige class they stop getting these free spells, as it is a feature of the wizard class itself and not the standard method by which wizards gain spells 'known'. Simply put, wizards gain no 'spells known' by virtue of leveling up from their 'spells' ability.
I always assumed that you had to understand each new version separately; every wizard has unique notational devices, which is why there's a spellcraft check at all, so even if you "know" a spell, you have to make a spellcraft check to read a version you haven't previously read.
They don't automatically learn spells when they level up. They simply add two to their spell book.
This is why if they go into a prestige class they stop getting these free spells, as it is a feature of the wizard class itself and not the standard method by which wizards gain spells 'known'. Simply put, wizards gain no 'spells known' by virtue of leveling up from their 'spells' ability.
Are you saying that a Wizard gets to add two spells to their spell book upon leveling up, but then has to roll to actually learn them?
That creates a situation in which a wizard could, theoretically, end up with a spellbook full of spells they can't cast because they don't actually know them... despite the fact that it was "a certain amount of spell research between adventures" that allowed them to put the spells in their book to start with.
They don't automatically learn spells when they level up. They simply add two to their spell book.
This is why if they go into a prestige class they stop getting these free spells, as it is a feature of the wizard class itself and not the standard method by which wizards gain spells 'known'. Simply put, wizards gain no 'spells known' by virtue of leveling up from their 'spells' ability.
Are you saying that a Wizard gets to add two spells to their spell book upon leveling up, but then has to roll to actually learn them?
That creates a situation in which a wizard could, theoretically, end up with a spellbook full of spells they can't cast because they don't actually know them... despite the fact that it was "a certain amount of spell research between adventures" that allowed them to put the spells in their book to start with.
The wizard would use a very loose or informal spells known. They don't have a 'spells known' mechanic. They simply have a spellbook with spells in it they can prepare from.
Wizards don't have to roll to "learn" those spells, but the game has no concept at all of "spells known" for wizards. There's your spellbook, containing spells you can prepare, and there's other spellbooks, containing spells you could decipher and then prepare. That's it. So far as I know, if you steal a spellbook, and decipher all the spells in it, you can now prep those spells from that book too. But if you have no spellbooks, all you can prep is read magic and anything you did with spell mastery, and if you want to prep other spells, you need to acquire books.
The stuff about copying things into your spellbook mostly assumes that you aren't going to be able to just keep someone else's.
Wizards don't have to roll to "learn" those spells, but the game has no concept at all of "spells known" for wizards.
First, yes there is a concept of "spells known" for wizards.
wizard class wrote:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
A wizard may know any number of spells.
seebs wrote:
There's your spellbook, containing spells you can prepare and there's other spellbooks, containing spells you could decipher and then prepare. That's it.
Your spellbook does not need to be deciphered, nor is there a roll to prepare them - this is because it is your spellbook and contains the spells that you know.
Then there are other spellbooks. Such spellbooks have two uses, both of which require deciphering first (though only once ever for each spell).
The first use is to prepare spells that you already know, which requires a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) every time you prepare the spell.
The second use it to actual learn a new spell, which requires the same DC of Spellcraft check and that you scribe the spell into your own book (which has a monetary cost).
This is entirely backed up by the rules, as shown by the fact that the following are true:
1. You cannot prepare a spell from a borrowed book unless you know that spell.
2. You must make the Spellcraft to prepare a known spell from a borrowed book every time you prepare it, no matter how many times you have prepared that spell from that book before.
3. The only rules that say how you learn a spell, rather than just how long it takes and what the DC is like in the Spellcraft skill description, put learning a spell and scribing it into your book as a single event.
Though if you 'scribe' your spells with Secret Page, there is no cost for scribing.
All arguments aside Rikkan, the original spell still needs to be paid for when you scribe it, and hide it with Secret Page. So somewhere you have the spell known written down in a spell book. (Whether yours or another).
Can you, in effective, put two usable spells on a single page with Secret Page. I would rule either no, OR if you did, you have to pay the scribing cost, but regardless, the original question concerning the cost of scribing the hidden spell must be paid. (assuming your not using a blessed book)
Of course you can use Secret Page to scribe spells into your book. And of course that is the RAI and RAW. Silly topic.
that is your interpretation. You rely on A->B:B->A which in not rigorously True. So RAW does not match your RAI.
I did point out that using Secret Page will save you half the cost of saving your spells at best. There are some tradeoffs.
This is a well defined process. You learn the spell once(Spell craft Check), you save the knowledge of how to cast it (manually scribe at cost & time or via magic item or via spell), then later you prepare it(your source or borrowed(Spellcraft Check)), then cast it... you need not save the spell as you can use a borrowed source(with a check).
What I am saying is that saving the spell via Secret Page spell is not exactly the same as "scribing" and thus you do not get a discount on re-scribing(manually copying) as you have not scribed it the first time.
The magic item (Blessed book) says that you can fill the book with spells without paying the material cost. As it addresses the material cost it counts as scribing for $0 but the time is the same. The spell Secret Page does not address the material cost of scribing nor the time, so it does not count as scribing the spell.
So scribing has a special meaning as there is a cost and time associated with it other than the usual meaning of writing it down.
Huh. I thought you could prepare a spell from a borrowed book.
I now wonder whether there is intended to be a distinction between "learn" and "copy".
You can, you just have to make a check, every time you try to learn it from the borrowed spell book.
Think of it this way..
Each wizard writes spells into his spell book using his own magical shorthand,
You may 'know' Mage Armor, but the way your buddy Etcher the Mage writes it doesn't sit will with the way you understand magic because he does things, and thinks differently about the spell than you do.
Until you write it down YOUR way ( presumably in your book ) You have to wrestle with the way Etcher wrote it each time you try to memorize the spell. (thus the spell craft check)
Actually: "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. "
Actually: "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. "
Yes, but one of the ways you can put a spell into your spell book is by memorizing it from somewhere else, then copying it into the spellbook.
So you can prep a spell, without it being in 'your' spellbook.
PRD wrote:
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.
Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
While the process is under Copying a spellbook, it seems pretty clear, at least to me, you can memorize a spell from a borrowed book, then either cast that spell, or copy it to your spell book.
I envision that as the process one takes when learning a new spell in a captured spellbook. Learn and memorize it from the borrowed book until you can scribe it into you own.
All that being said, I can see where some will take RAW as how you indicated. Six of one to me, as long as the GM is consistent.
While the process is under Copying a spellbook, it seems pretty clear, at least to me, you can memorize a spell from a borrowed book, then either cast that spell, or copy it to your spell book.
That is absolutely true - but the restrictions on what spells you can memorize from a borrowed book must be adhered to. Namely that you may only prepare spells from a borrowed book that you 1) Know, and 2) have recorded in your own spellbook (noting that "has recorded" can be read as past-tense, thus allowing for borrowed-book-prep even if your spellbook is currently a pile of ashes you are replacing with a new blank book).
While the process is under Copying a spellbook, it seems pretty clear, at least to me, you can memorize a spell from a borrowed book, then either cast that spell, or copy it to your spell book.
That is absolutely true - but the restrictions on what spells you can memorize from a borrowed book must be adhered to. Namely that you may only prepare spells from a borrowed book that you 1) Know, and 2) have recorded in your own spellbook (noting that "has recorded" can be read as past-tense, thus allowing for borrowed-book-prep even if your spellbook is currently a pile of ashes you are replacing with a new blank book).
I don't disagree with you thenobleldrake, but if you look at the process for getting a spell from a new source, the synergy between the two process is close enough for me to say once you understand the spell, you can memorize it.
I do realize that's not RAW, but I do feel it's RAI and how we play at out table.
Our house rule: Once a wizards knows a spell, he can memorize it from any source, although he needs to spellcraft it until he copies it into his own spellbook.
Wizards don't have to roll to "learn" those spells, but the game has no concept at all of "spells known" for wizards.
First, yes there is a concept of "spells known" for wizards.
wizard class wrote:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
A wizard may know any number of spells.
As I said two posts above you.
"The wizard would use a very loose or informal spells known. They don't have a 'spells known' mechanic. They simply have a spellbook with spells in it they can prepare from."
thenobledrake wrote:
seebs wrote:
There's your spellbook, containing spells you can prepare and there's other spellbooks, containing spells you could decipher and then prepare. That's it.
Your spellbook does not need to be deciphered, nor is there a roll to prepare them - this is because it is your spellbook and contains the spells that you know.
Then there are other spellbooks. Such spellbooks have two uses, both of which require deciphering first (though only once ever for each spell).
The first use is to prepare spells that you already know, which requires a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) every time you prepare the spell.
The second use it to actual learn a new spell, which requires the same DC of Spellcraft check and that you scribe the spell into your own book (which has a monetary cost).
This is entirely backed up by the rules, as shown by the fact that the following are true:
1. You cannot prepare a spell from a borrowed book unless you know that spell.
2. You must make the Spellcraft to prepare a known spell from a borrowed book every time you prepare it, no matter how many times you have prepared that spell from that book before.
3. The only rules that say how you learn a spell, rather than just how long it takes and what the DC is like in the Spellcraft skill description, put learning a spell and scribing it into your book as a single event.
1. How can you ever write a new spell into your book if you do not prepare it from a borrowed book/scroll first? Especially given that: "A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook."
You need to have the spell prepared to copy it into your book.
2. Yes. But... is anyone contesting this?
3. This is because there is no 'spells known' mechanic for a wizard. They have a 'spells I wrote in a spellbook' mechanic. If the magical writing 'their' magical writing, then they can freely prepare a spell from it. That is really the only difference between their book and another book, they don't have to make a check regarding their book.
4. Trying to wrap your head around the Magical Writing rules will fail you every time if you try to force the 'spells known' idea onto the wizard. They simply don't have one. Everything that shows up in print makes absolute clear and perfect sense as soon as you get rid of this preconceived and errant notion. Is the word 'known' used? Sure, it is used interchangeably with 'learned' and 'understood' to 'describe' the idea of what is transpiring. But it isn't a statistic or mechanical stat, it doesn't have an actual rules entry. A wizard has no such thing as 'spells known'. That isn't part of the class. You are thinking of sorcerers...
Anyone who thinks the whole wizard and magical writings thing is well written and fully explained isn't paying attention, too.
What happens if you learn a spell from a borrowed book but don't have the time to write it into your book because you get interrupted?
Is it a spell known now? Or, if you wanted to copy it into your book, would you have to relearn it?
What happens if you are interrupted or give up halfway through transcribing a scroll into your book? Is the scroll half erased? Or does that happen at the end, or the beginning of copying it?
Say you once had a spellbook but it got caught on fire and you're starting over. Do you count as still knowing all your old spells? Do you have to learn them again? The rules say if you know a spell 'in your spellbook' you can prepare it from another book...well, you don't even have a spellbook anymore, do ya?
What if you learn a spell but don't copy it right away, can you take a 5 minute breather in between learning it and copying it? Go take a leak or something after those 4 straight hours you just spent learning Wall of Fire... do you miss your chance? Can you wait those 5 minutes? 10 minutes? An hour? A day? A year?
What's to stop you from just writing a new book from scratch if yours gets scorched? I mean, if time doesn't matter between the times you 'learned' it and you 'copy' it. Can you be considered to have 'learned' all the old spells? Even if it’s been a few years, you still 'know' them right?
Question after question after question. The answer?
Spoiler:
To write a spell in your book, it must be prepared. It expends the prepared spell to write it in your book. If you find another spell which you have not prepared before, you may figure out how to so by 'learning it', and then it is prepared. This leaves spellbooks unharmed and consumes a scroll. You may then use this new prepared spell to write it into your book.
Learning a spell: preparing that spell for the first time.
A spell known: A spell that has been prepared on a previous occasion.
Because a wizard is incapable of picking up someone else's spell book and preparing any spell - unless they know that spell.
Example: I am a 1st level wizard, and my spell book contains the 1st level spells of magic missile, mage armor, mount, color spray, and sleep.
If I borrow by wizard buddy's spell book which has all of those spells in it, but also has burning hands, I can not prepare burning hands, but I can (if I make a Spellcraft check) prepare the others because I already know them.
I can, however, learn burning hands following the rules for learning a spell - which have me roll Spellcraft to successfully understand the spell and write it in my spellbook.
Once I have finished that process, I can then prepare burning hands from my own spellbook, or I can prepare it from my buddy's spellbook with a Spellcraft check.
As for "trying to wrap my head around" the magical writing rules, I have zero confusion on the matter, zero words included in the text that play no part in my understanding of how things work, and zero conflicts between my understanding of how things work and the actual words used in the rules.
Everything that shows up in print makes absolute clear and perfect sense as is.
You’re a level 20 wizard and just used all but 1 of your spells battling a demon lord in the Abyss, you were victorious. Go you! But his buddies show up after the fight to seek revenge. Oh noes!
Thankfully, your last prepared spell is Plane Shift and you make your exit. Yay! But find you roll 5 100s, and are WAY off destination. Where? Some deserted island. Drat.
Too bad you lost your spellbook earlier in the day. And are completely out of prepared spell too! What’s a wizard to do? After roaming around the island, you stumble up an old book, and within it’s pages is one spell. Overland Flight.
You’re saved!! Wait… are you?
You’ve never learned this spell before. It has never been in your book before. And you don’t have the materials necessary to write it either… are you saved?
Can you in fact learn and prepare this spell? Or are you stuck simply learning the spell and being held up at the ‘copying’ step?
Tick tock, best we get a decision before this demon lord slaying, plane hopping archmagi, dies alone on an island, clutching a spellbook with a freaking Overland Flight spell in it.
Because a wizard is incapable of picking up someone else's spell book and preparing any spell - unless they know that spell.
Example: I am a 1st level wizard, and my spell book contains the 1st level spells of magic missile, mage armor, mount, color spray, and sleep.
If I borrow by wizard buddy's spell book which has all of those spells in it, but also has burning hands, I can not prepare burning hands, but I can (if I make a Spellcraft check) prepare the others because I already know them.
I can, however, learn burning hands following the rules for learning a spell - which have me roll Spellcraft to successfully understand the spell and write it in my spellbook.
Once I have finished that process, I can then prepare burning hands from my own spellbook, or I can prepare it from my buddy's spellbook with a Spellcraft check.
As for "trying to wrap my head around" the magical writing rules, I have zero confusion on the matter, zero words included in the text that play no part in my understanding of how things work, and zero conflicts between my understanding of how things work and the actual words used in the rules.
Everything that shows up in print makes absolute clear and perfect sense as is.
But how can you write it into your book without having it prepared? You're saying you have to write it before you can prepare it, but... you have to prepare it TO write it.
Learning it is also the act of preparing it, it just takes longer the first time.
Reread what you need to do to copy a spell into your book. It has to be prepared. Has to be.
No spell prepared, no spell written.
Learn it. (ie prepare it) Then write it into your book, for later. Simple.
The first time, simply take added time, because you haven't done it before, and has a chance of failure...again, because you haven't done it and need to figure out why this other mage swirls his swoops when you swoop your swirls. God that's annoying when people swirl their swoops!
Anyone who thinks the whole wizard and magical writings thing is well written and fully explained isn't paying attention, too.
There is no need to be insulting
Remy Balster wrote:
What happens if you learn a spell from a borrowed book but don't have the time to write it into your book because you get interrupted?
You must spend the whole hour to study the spell before you get to make a check to learn the spell, but you are not required by the rules to then immediately spend the 1 hour per spell level scribing the spell into your book - so you can do it later.
Remy Balster wrote:
Is it a spell known now?
Yes - but you cannot, unfortunately, prepare it from any source just yet because having recorded it in your spellbook is required by the rules on preparing spells.
Remy Balster wrote:
Or, if you wanted to copy it into your book, would you have to relearn it?
There is no such thing as "relearn" a spell.
Remy Balster wrote:
What happens if you are interrupted or give up halfway through transcribing a scroll into your book?
You are not finished scribing and your partial writing has no effect or use, you have to finish it later - but with no consequences spelled out in the rules, and no requirement to scribe uninterrupted for the entire time, you can stop and start as needed until finished.
Remy Balster wrote:
Is the scroll half erased? Or does that happen at the end, or the beginning of copying it?
The rules specifically say "a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment," that means it happens only when you have finished your writings.
Remy Balster wrote:
Say you once had a spellbook but it got caught on fire and you're starting over. Do you count as still knowing all your old spells?
Yes.
Remy Balster wrote:
Do you have to learn them again?
No.
Remy Balster wrote:
The rules say if you know a spell 'in your spellbook' you can prepare it from another book...well, you don't even have a spellbook anymore, do ya?
The rules specifically say " has recorded in his own spellbook" - has recorded is past tense, so it doesn't matter if it is there now or whether you even have that book anymore, so long as you have at one point or another recorded that spell into your own spellbook you are fine to prepare it from a borrowed book.
Then the specific rule for replacing spellbooks kicks in and you can write spells you have prepared into your own book - which normally you cannot do.
Remy Balster wrote:
What if you learn a spell but don't copy it right away, can you take a 5 minute breather in between learning it and copying it?
The rules do not say you must immediately scribe the spell, so there is no reason why not.
Remy Balster wrote:
Go take a leak or something after those 4 straight hours you just spent learning Wall of Fire...
Learning a spell only ever takes 1 hour - it's scribing the spell that takes 1 hour per level.
Remy Balster wrote:
do you miss your chance?
No. There is no rule requiring immediate scribing following your learning - but you really can't use the spell at all until you do finish that scribing.
Remy Balster wrote:
Can you wait those 5 minutes? 10 minutes? An hour? A day? A year?
The answer to all of these is yes, but you wouldn't want to since preparing a spell requires that you have recorded it in your spellbook.
Remy Balster wrote:
What's to stop you from just writing a new book from scratch if yours gets scorched?
Cost. Scribing spells always costs gold, though the rules do give you a discount if you are making a back-up copy of a book rather than waiting until the first is destroyed to scribe the second.
Remy Balster wrote:
I mean, if time doesn't matter between the times you 'learned' it and you 'copy' it. Can you be considered to have 'learned' all the old spells? Even if it’s been a few years, you still 'know' them right?
Yes, you know them - Wizards know spells and have no means that I know of to actually forget them.
If you have any other questions, please do ask - As pertains to the minutia of wizards, I happen to know quite a terrible lot.
But how can you write it into your book without having it prepared?
Because that is what the rules say you do in every case except for replacing a spellbook.
See here:
PRD wrote:
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
Notice the bolded sentence towards the end - it states you understand the spell and can copy it, not that you understand it and have or can memorize(d) it.
The rest of your post is just factually incorrect - you seem to be confused because there are two different procedures, the first for learning new spells and the second for replacing a lost or destroyed spellbook, that do not follow the same rules - the former allows learning & scribing of a spells, the latter requires preparing a spell you have already learned in the past in order to be able to scribe it.
They are different - intentionally so, as that makes it so that losing a spellbook requires finding the spells you know again rather than just sitting down and scribbling down everything you know purely from memory (I remember things type of memory, not prepared spells memory).
Isn't "learning a spell" entirely equivalent to having written it in one of your spellbooks?
prd wrote:
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
You can reconstruct a spellbook using a spell that you prepared, but you can't prepare a spell you haven't learned i.e., written at least once in a spellbook. Is that correct?
I would assume that the two free spells gained per level are "learned" i.e., written by you in a spellbook.
You’ve never learned this spell before. It has never been in your book before. And you don’t have the materials necessary to write it either… are you saved?
You are not saved.
Learning the spell is possible - it takes 1 hour and a Spellcraft check.
Preparing the spell is not possible - this PRD quote shows why:
PRD wrote:
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook
There are two conditions needed to prepare the spell you just found, and you only meet one of them.
You have learned it (if you succeeded the Spellcraft check to do so), but cannot prepare it because you have never recorded it into your own spellbook.
This is why the Spell Mastery feat is actually a much better investment than many people give it credit for.
well, what happens if you have Bob the wizard. Theo the evil dragon burned Bob's spellbook. Bob's a friendly sort of wizard, so he crawls his way back to civilization and goes to visit Clarissa the also-wizard, because hey, Bob has to move on with his life and start re-building his spellbook. Bob knows Magic Missile, Mage Armor, they *were* in his spellbook, before Theo burned it.
* everyone can prepare Read Magic from memory.
* Bob can use Read Magic to automatically decipher Clarissa's spells in her spellbook.
Can Bob prepare Magic Missile from Clarissa's spellbook? Its a spell he had previously known and jotted down in his spell book. But without that spellbook, thanks to Theo, Bob doesn't really know Magic Missile anymore, since it doesn't exist in his spellbook (yet). Bob can learn "new" spells from Clarissa's book directly, leaving Clarissa's book unharmed. It just takes Read Magic to automatically decipher it again, and 1 hour of study, plus a DC 15+spell level spellcraft check.
*Does Bob actually know Magic Missile since he already learned it once, and it was in his book? or does Bob now need to re-learn Magic Missile, indicating that he does not know Magic Missile, and can't prepare it from Clarissa's book?
For replacing his spellbook, the PRD says he uses the procedure for learning a new spell. But it says he can just copy it from a borrowed spellbook. It doesn't mention knowing the spell or not. If he has it prepared, he can just write it down. If he doesn't have it prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook, and then write it down. If he actually had to have the spell known and in his book to copy it, he'd never be able to prepare it from a borrowed spellbook.
yes i'm postulating that there is some vaguery in arcane spells known for a wizard, since a wizard makes a check to learn a spell and scribe it into his spell book, but once his spell book is destroyed or lost he no longer has access to that spell. The DC to learn a spell the first time is the same as the DC to learn a spell in a borrowed book, but with no 1 hour study requirement. The same DC the wizard must succeed at every time he wants to prepare that spell from a borrowed book. In essence he's re-learning the spell over and over again.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks w/ highlighting:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks wrote:
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks:
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks wrote:
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
Isn't "learning a spell" entirely equivalent to having written it in one of your spellbooks?
Usually, though there are two distinct steps - learning/knowing/understanding and having scribed the spell into your spellbook.
Quaternion wrote:
You can reconstruct a spellbook using a spell that you prepared, but you can't prepare a spell you haven't learned i.e., written at least once in a spellbook. Is that correct?
Yes.
Quaternion wrote:
I would assume that the two free spells gained per level are "learned" i.e., written by you in a spellbook.
I have always believed that the 2 spells gained each level are meant to be both learned and added to your spellbook, but the strictest reading of the rules is that they are added to your spellbook.
If going with that strictest reading, I would expect that a Spellcraft check to actually learn the spell would be needed.
I, however, encourage going with the looser interpretation that the wizard has actually learned the spells gained from increasing in level - if for no other reason than 13 years of that having been the way everyone seems to have understood the rule despite its wording not strictly matching.
