| w01fe01 |
has anyone had any success stories with them?
im making a kitsune ninja with the rakshasa bloodline. focusing on bluff/diplomacy and disguise. swift kitsune shapechanger+realistic likeness by level 3. possibly not taking twf at all and just using a single wakizashi or katana.
most damge oriented abilities would be invisible blade to work with sneak attacks.
| Mapleswitch |
The real success story was my party of 5 with the highest AC being 15 (APL 6 going against +3/4 encounters) with my healbot and no one ever died the entire campaign. Everyone almost always got hit every time they were attacked.
*didn't get a chance to do anything but heal with the damage outputs as they were*
Thalin
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The answer is you can, but why would you?
All PFS games and most home games are 75-90% combat. The game structure and most abilities are based around combat; it gives a "nod" to non-combat in the form of skill points, which are a simple D20 roll to determine how effectively what you said is interpreted by NPCs. The rest is simply roleplaying; the shape changing will rarely come into effect, and that will make the game less enjoyable.
Now, let's take your kitsune above, and pretend you didn't care for combat feats. Why not be some form of support caster? A kitsune bard or kitsune oracle could have all of the powers you have listed, but also have many spells that help suppliment their abilities ("Alter Self" gives a further bonus to disguise checks), as well as the ability to enhance your allies in battle. This means that for out-of-combat, you are a god, and can have Honeyed tongue and other such powers. In combat, your high charisma gives solid saves on grease spells and activities, and lets you cast great offensive debuffs like Blistering Invictus (we're assuming the bard here). So now you are just as good at out-of-combat(and probably better, since you are signing based and use Charisma for sense motive), and also have an effective role to fill IN combat.
(Hannah Montanta) It's the best.... of both worlds....
| w01fe01 |
Found the Archeologist Bard in the archetypes section.
free up some support mechanics to gain some rogue abilities and keep trap finding/disable device.
i like it.
maybe, with spells, i can just take the two kitsune feats for swift action transform into any human i see. and supplement with spells from bard. allowing me to pick more feats.
| Detect Magic |
hidden blade never comes into play?! how can going invisible and forcing enemies flat footed to you not come into play?
You're thinking of the ninja's "invisible blade". He's referring to the knife master ability.
Reynard_the_fox
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Always make your characters effective in combat. You will spend a lot of time in combat in just about any campaign; that's time you should be enjoying and contributing to. Of course, that doesn't mean you need to be able to deal massive damage or hit enemies with super-high save DCs - just that you should somehow be contributing to the party.
Some good examples of low-investment ways to help the party:
-Be a Halfling with the Helpful trait; by flanking and aiding, you can provide your melee-ers with up to +30% chance to hit.
-Be just about any caster and buff your party. If you're a full caster, summoning things is good too.
-If your build doesn't require many feats, just get a high dex and take the archery feats. Sit in the back and provide ranged support. Remember Elves get free longbow proficiency.
-Take a high-crit weapon and use Butterfly Sting, in combination with a fighter/barbarian with a x4 crit weapon. (Remember you still need to confirm the crit, though, so to-hit is extremely important.)
You don't have to optimize for combat; but if you're not going to optimize for combat, pick a tactic that doesn't require optimization. For example: any Ninja/Sorcerer multiclass is going to have terrible BAB, and even if you go high-dex with an Agile weapon your damage isn't going to be very great. You'd probably be better off with a sneaky sorcerer - perhaps using Vanish to tag people with nasty touch spells, for example. (Flat-footed touch AC is almost always ~10.)
I'm not saying you shouldn't go Ninja/Sorcerer multiclass, since that can occasionally be quite versatile and fun (check out the Arcane Trickster prestige class); however, you're going to have to accept that you're going to be terrible at hitting things and dealing damage in regular combat. Find a different way to contribute in combat. (Alternately, a Str-based pure ninja could be fairly effective...)
Thalin
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Yep Wolfe, you have the right idea.
I'd actually recommend the Archivist over the Archeologist. Archeoligist is a self-only buffing machine, Archivist Buffs those around them. You still keep the trapfinding, but have an AE buff that is a standard action. Your overall buff is also quite good; not adding to damage, but still adding to hit, as well as AC and lots of saves. Yes it requires them to see AND hear you, but that is a minor drop.
I've been playing an Archivist in PFS, he is a champion of out-of-combat and is a huge boon in combat. Drop some heroisms, Naturalist (their bard song), and try to Intimidate opponents if you have nothing better to do (to give them -2 to hit / saves). You'll always be useful to the group, and still can keep the sneaky kitsune. And since they aren't feat dependent at all, if you love the kitsune-shape-change trick, then go at it :).
| w01fe01 |
im almost certain id want to go archeologist bard archetype looking at what it gives up vs what it gets.
now the question is the direction to go.
i know i still want disguise. i was told i can do profession: mimicry and basically use that instead of casting altered voice.
but beyond that? was thinking using kitsunes alternate progression for increase in DC on save or suck spells.
i know first and third level feats are taken (2x kitsune feats), i know ill want a couple bardic feats, and maybe 2-3 metamagic feats (those not until later).
so i cant help but feel ranged combat would...well suck. i know least feat intensive is 2handed.
Psion-Psycho
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The only non combat character i made was a bard in a city game. One of the most fun characters ive ever made. The key to it is as many skill points as possible and healing. Many skills ensures ability to deal with many different encounters and healing because all people love a healer, especially when you create ur own free clinic. Also depending on DM and circumstances of the game you can do some fun odd things to earn some recognition amongst the people. I actually started a chain of soup kitchens for the poor on mine and used the feat Leadership to fill the needed positions to get the job done. The game though became major micro management and Sims esc style of play with all that i was doing.
Thalin
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Anyone can disable non-magical traps; the "Trapfinding" adds magical traps. So they are the same as archeologist.
As to "not having disable device as class", it is VERY true. You either accept a -3 until level 11 (at level 11 all skills are class skills for the archivist), or use one of your traits (which is how I got it) to gain Disable Device as a trap skill (and get a +1 to boot). The latter is handy if you want to be a trapfinder.
The issue with the archeologist is they are inherently made to STILL be combat machines (thus the self-buffing aspect of their song), so you need combat feats to be effective. Buffing spellcasters don't really need their feats for combat things; so have an advantage in the # of feats they are willing to give up (and can also ignore str in favor of Int/Cha as their primary stats).
| Kayerloth |
I have yet to see a character who is optimized at "everything". Have fun and look to be effective in combat while remaining "optimized" in your chosen area. Even an optimized combat oriented character is not optimized for any and all types of combat, hence 'archer' vs 'trip/CMB specialist' vs 'TWF' vs etc..
| RainyDayNinja RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
For the record, I have a Halfing Ninja in PFS who focuses on Bluff and Disguise. In social-heavy scenarios, he's a blast to roleplay, but when combat starts he can't do much. I even took two levels of Lore Warden fighter to pick up Improved Feint and Dervish Dance as soon as possible, but he still does only 1d4+6 on a hit at level 6 (maybe with 2d6 sneak attack, for an average of 15.5 damage). I don't really like to play him anymore because it's frustrating to be so little help in combat. YMMV, of course.
| w01fe01 |
you make good points Thalin, however i knew a bard doesnt have that many spells known as say...a wizard. so how do you make a effective starting support character?
i do like the rogue talents/advanced talents that i could get with archeologist. even moreso if i was allowed to take the extra rogue talent feat after level 4.
also it means id need to spend more skill points on knowledge skills, wich is difficult as i already want soooo many skills. not too mention like i said, taking profession: mimicry and dont have to worry about altered voice/mannerism
Reynard_the_fox
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I would strongly argue that you should NOT take an archetype that replaces group buffs. Archaeologist is cool, but you can get much of the same flavor with a regular bard, while massively boosting your team's damage. Trust me - your team will thank you. (Remember, anyone with Dispel Magic can disable magical traps.)
Again: if you're not optimizing for combat, do something that doesn't require optimization. As a bard, using Bardic Performance and buffing fits the bill - perhaps with a whip or shortbow for the interim. As long as you're buffing the whole team, your friends will forgive you for not being a combat monster yourself; but if you're keeping those buffs for yourself (e.g. Archaeologist), your team will expect you to be dealing some pretty good damage all on your own.
Thalin
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Kitsune Archivist Buff-o-matic Out-of-combat "Superstar"
20 point build
Kitsune Archivist 5
Str: 5 (-4)
Int: 14 (5)
Wis: 12 (2)
Dex: 16 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Chr: 18 (10) - Currently 19 from level up, 21 after magic item.
Wears Mithril Chain Shirt and a Darkwood Shield (yes, even with this you're in medium load and speed 20, but that doesn't actually hurt you too bad).
Skills (Suggestions):
Disable Device, Intimidate, Dimplomacy, 1 point for each knowledge skill (and maybe 3 in a few big ones), Perception (obviously), Disguise Self, Sense Motive, and a litlte Perform (Singing or Oratory), UMD
Wears a Headband of Charisma +2 and has the headband that grants +3 to all CHA-based skills. Carries all the spare wands nobody else wants.
Feats 1-3) Kitsune Quick-change line
5) Flagbearer
Trait 3 extra rounds performance and +1 Disable device/it's a class skill
So out of combat, you are "covered" (+16 to all social skills, and can take 10 for a 17 on any knowledge check... once per day make it 27 when it's important), and are a great trapfinder (Perception is a respectable +12, Disable Device is +14 or so with masterwork tools). In combat, you start each combat by beginning performance and waving your flag (everyone is +3 to hit, +2 AC, +1 Damage, +2 vs non-spell saves). You take "10" to identify creature weaknesses too.
Spells:
1) Grease, Liberating Command, Ear-Piercing Scream are all important
2) Heroism will take up 90% of your castings (Giving a further +2 to allies attacks for way too long for a 2nd level spell), but then you have Blistering Invictus for Area Effect debuff and anything else you want (Honeyed tongue if you want to "overkill" diplomacy checks).
| w01fe01 |
nice to see i wasnt too far form your idea Thalin. flagbearer is a odd one for me tho. probably moreso because we are going to be somewhat under the radar in the campaign as we are exiles.
plus i may want to shimy some things around for a bit more sneak. like stealth.
i also see you have no bluff, i definitly want bluff.
| foolsjourney |
In my games, those that turn up expecting 75% combat would be very disappointed. Rewards come from all sorts of places, and you're far more likely to get rewards from outsmarting, negotiating with the NPCs than just stabbing at everything that moves. Information is power, and you get much more information from something you've kept alive. The L4 S8 rogue who hasn't sneak attacked once is most likely going to reach level 5 sooner than the dwarf fighter who simply hits everything with his hammer.
As others have said, you need to check on what kind of game your GM sets before you. You're more likely to come across games where the fighting is integral. I think you'd have fun at my table though.
Thalin
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Bluff was an oversight yeah; you should have some points there.
Sneaking is certainly a good thing, though sometimes tough to pull off (unless everyone specializes it, it often involves "splitting the party", which people quickly get away from). Having said that, get my favorite spell @ 7, sculpt sound, to help with the sneaking. It will make everyone make no noise (except when they want to) for hours / day, and can also be used on spellcasters to make them completely unable to cast spells (and can be targeted on an alarm to make it not make noise even if someone pulls the rope).
If you're trying to save on skill points, keep just 1 point in each of the 8 knowledges; you'll go up by +1 every 2 levels anyway, and at level 2 get the "1/day take 20" abilities for when it is really important.
Then you can max Disable/Bluff/Diplomacy/Perception/Stealth/Use Magic Device/Disguise Self. That's 7 of your points each level. The rest you can use to get 1 point in each knowledge for the first 4 levels, then give a smattering of other things (Profession Mimicry is actually covered by Disguise Self as far as making other voices and such).
Performance gets you access to some good feats at high level; handy, but you can always wait until you get there and decide if you want them.
| David knott 242 |
I created a Life Oracle cohort who was not particularly good at direct combat (no attention paid to improving weapon attacks or offensive spells). Of course, given that the player of the party cleric had just left the game, she has been quite useful at keeping other people going in combat.