Spell-Like Abilities, Arcane Caster Level, & Improved Familiar

[olePigeon]

If I have, say, a 6th level Drow Fighter and then dip 1 level Wizard to get a Familiar, then take Improved Familiar at that 7th level to get an Imp, does the 6 levels of Drow + 1 level of Wizard = 7 levels of arcane caster to meet the requirements for Improved Familiar? They have arcane spell-like abilities, and as far as Google can tell me, spell-like abilities are treated in nearly every aspect as spells, including for qualifying for feats and prestige classes like Eldritch Knight.

I found an unresolved and rather divisive thread with no ruling either direction.

[Diego Rossi]

SLAs are treated as spells, not as levels in a spellcasting class.

Improved familiar require levels in a Arcane spellcasting class. Being a drow fighter is not being a member of a spellcasting class, so, for what matter for Improved Familiar you are a 1st level wizard that can cast dancing lights, darkness and faerie fire as SLA.

[Pupsocket]

Diego Rossi wrote:

SLAs are treated as spells, not as levels in a spellcasting class.

Improved familiar require levels in a Arcane spellcasting class. Being a drow fighter is not being a member of a spellcasting class, so, for what matter for Improved Familiar you are a 1st level wizard that can cast dancing lights, darkness and faerie fire as SLA.

You're arguing that the term "Arcane Spellcaster Level" in the feat doesn't mean "Arcane Caster Level" but "Class level in an arcane spellcasting class". Do you have any support for this?

[Isil-zha]

Ruling regarding item creation feats and a spell-like ability's caster level seems to contradict Diego's interpretation.

[Ilja]

Diego Rossi wrote:

SLAs are treated as spells, not as levels in a spellcasting class.

Improved familiar require levels in a Arcane spellcasting class. Being a drow fighter is not being a member of a spellcasting class, so, for what matter for Improved Familiar you are a 1st level wizard that can cast dancing lights, darkness and faerie fire as SLA.

But the feat - according to the PRD - does not say it requires levels in an arcane spellcasting class, it requires an arcane spellcaster level.

linky.

Now, this is kind of new language that has not been used or discussed as much as "caster level". There are a few different interpretations:
1. Read it as "arcane spellcaster level" and treat "spellcaster level" as "caster level", because that's most likely what they mean. The ruling then becomes the same as for other caster level requirements.
2. Read it as "arcane spellcaster level" and a human wizard 1/fighter 6 can take it (it is an arcane spellcaster, and it's level 7).

Nowhere is class levels mentioned at all.

[Diego Rossi]

The feat say:

Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level
Celestial hawk1 Neutral good 3rd
Dire rat Neutral 3rd
Fiendish viper2 Neutral evil 3rd
Elemental, Small (any type) Neutral 5th
Stirge Neutral 5th
Homunculus3 Any 7th
Imp Lawful evil 7th
Mephit (any type) Neutral 7th
Pseudodragon Neutral good 7th
Quasit Chaotic evil 7th

So the requirement is not having "a caster level", that is covered by the FAQ that say that a SLA caster level count as a caster level for crafting magic items.

It is a arcane spellcaster level.
3 requiremts in as many words:
- he must be a arcane spellcaster
- he must be a spellcaster and that term is used for classes that cast spells, not for creatures with SLA;
- he must be a arcane spellcaster of level X

The 6th level fighter, 1st level wizard satisfy the first and second condition, but he don't satisfy the 3rd condition for any of the improved familiars.

[Seraphimpunk]

wizard 1/fighter 1/eldritch knight 7 would have an arcane caster level of 7 though, and at 8th level could retrain their 7th level feat to improved familiar. ( as a drow if they get a 3rd level SLA , or aasimar w/ default daylight )

[olePigeon]

Diego Rossi wrote:

- he must be a spellcaster and that term is used for classes that cast spells, not for creatures with SLA;

So Eldritch Heritage would never qualify for Improved Familiar?

[Samasboy1]

Diego Rossi wrote:

- he must be a spellcaster and that term is used for classes that cast spells, not for creatures with SLA;

And pre-reqs say "cast spells" which is different terminology from SLAs.

The FAQ states SLAs count for "cast spells." And if a creature with an SLA can "cast spells" then they are a "spellcaster."

[Seraphimpunk]

you guys are arguing two things , but they're different.

Diego's not saying the prerequisites call for arcane caster level.
he's saying the chart that qualifies you for your new familiar has an "arcane spellcaster level" column.

so if SLA's would let you buy the feat, you'd still never qualify for any of the actual improved familiars because you don't have the required "arcane spellcaster level".

[Ilja]

Diego Rossi wrote:

The feat say:

Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level
Celestial hawk1 Neutral good 3rd
Dire rat Neutral 3rd
Fiendish viper2 Neutral evil 3rd
Elemental, Small (any type) Neutral 5th
Stirge Neutral 5th
Homunculus3 Any 7th
Imp Lawful evil 7th
Mephit (any type) Neutral 7th
Pseudodragon Neutral good 7th
Quasit Chaotic evil 7th

So the requirement is not having "a caster level", that is covered by the FAQ that say that a SLA caster level count as a caster level for crafting magic items.

It is a arcane spellcaster level.
3 requiremts in as many words:
- he must be a arcane spellcaster
- he must be a spellcaster and that term is used for classes that cast spells, not for creatures with SLA;
- he must be a arcane spellcaster of level X

The 6th level fighter, 1st level wizard satisfy the first and second condition, but he don't satisfy the 3rd condition for any of the improved familiars.

It does not say "requires X levels in an arcane spellcasting class". In fact, I don't think "arcane spellcaster" is any game term for classes at all.

A 6th level fighter, 1st level wizard is a 7th level character that is an arcane spellcaster. Had it said "7th level wizard" that would be one thing and much more specific, but right now it's really vague.

Since a very similar wording was considered vague, and had lots of people interpreting it as X, and that recently was clarified as being Y, I think we should be vary of interpreting this case, which is extremely similar in both wording and vagueness, as being X; that is why I lean more towards Y. Had we not had a recent ruling on a nearly identical wording it might have been different.

EDIT: Also, on this very claim:

Quote:

he must be a spellcaster and that term is used for classes that cast spells, not for creatures with SLA;

Does this mean that creatures with planar binding as a spell-like ability do NOT need to make Cha checks to get someone's true name? There are probably other cases where such a rule would make a large difference, but I'm too lazy to search ATM.

Regardless, do you have any rules support for claiming "spellcaster" only refers to classes and not creatures with SLA's, seeing as how SLA's are considered spells in so many circumstances?

PRD on true names wrote:

In addition, spellcasters employing planar binding still need to engage in a contest of wills to convince the fiend to reveal such a secret

[Ilja]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

you guys are arguing two things , but they're different.

Diego's not saying the prerequisites call for arcane caster level.
he's saying the chart that qualifies you for your new familiar has an "arcane spellcaster level" column.

so if SLA's would let you buy the feat, you'd still never qualify for any of the actual improved familiars because you don't have the required "arcane spellcaster level".

But that assumes rules that are not explicit. It's not an impossible interpretation, but it is in no way the only possible one, or even that likely.

[olePigeon]

Well, the reason this came up was because I wanted my Aasimar Paladin to have a Cassisian angel as a familiar. I'm going with a whole Angel theme. Normally, I wouldn't worry about it too much and just ask the GM, but this is for Pathfinder Society.

I was going to accomplish this in one of two ways, either pay 15 prestige points + gold to retrain 3 feats to get Skill Focus (Knowledge Planes), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline), & Improved Familiar, or, dip 1 level into Sorcerer with the Arcane Bloodline (which, with my 8 levels of Aasimar Paladin, would be 9th level caster.... depending on the interpretation.)

I see the argument both ways, but then I agree Ilja regarding spell-like abilities. It's becoming more and more clear that SLAs are simply spells innate to a creature, and simply treat their hit die as their "spellcaster" level.

If the Aasimar doesn't count, then fine, I'll pony up the cash & prestige points and retrain 3 feats. However, if going by Diego's interpretation, not even Eldritch Heritage would work for Improved Familiar, and I wouldn't be able to do it anyway.

Without an official ruling, I could go with it, but then I'd be leaving it up to the GM's discretion, and I'd probably have a 50/50 chance of even getting to play the character; worst case scenario, I'm forced to "retire" the character early. She's already had 1 rebuild after a rule change.

It'd also make for headaches for both me and the GM.... on the other hand, I really, really, really wanna do this for my character. It's just perfect thematically and background story.

[olePigeon]

I'll play the safe route and retrain 3 feats. I think Improved Familiar should be reworded from "Arcane Spellcaster Level" to "Familiar Hit Dice."

That would remove any ambiguity. The familiar's hit die is directly tied to any class with a familiar. That would make it qualify for any class that has a familiar, be it arcane, divine, or through Eldritch Heritage, and would be in line with the description of a familiar's abilities being tied to class level (but not necessarily arcane.)

[Pupsocket]

olePigeon wrote:

I'll play the safe route and retrain 3 feats. I think Improved Familiar should be reworded from "Arcane Spellcaster Level" to "Familiar Hit Dice."

That would remove any ambiguity. The familiar's hit die is directly tied to any class with a familiar.

Well, actually...

Quote:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

...the familiar's HD is not tied to a familiar-having class level.

[James Risner]

I personally hate it when a feat has 3 prerequisites that are all interconnected, but someone tries to take the thing with multiple sources to qualify.

So if it says "Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below)."

You need a class with a familir (ability to acquire a new familiar"
that has a compatible alignment
and is sufficient high level (Arcane spellcaster level in the familiar class)

So at my table you wouldn't have a familiar if you used a SLA to qualify for the Spellcaster Level part.

[Samasboy1]

James Risner wrote:

I personally hate it when a feat has 3 prerequisites that are all interconnected, but someone tries to take the thing with multiple sources to qualify.

So if it says "Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below)."

You need a class with a familir (ability to acquire a new familiar"
that has a compatible alignment
and is sufficient high level (Arcane spellcaster level in the familiar class)

So at my table you wouldn't have a familiar if you used a SLA to qualify for the Spellcaster Level part.

But there isn't anything that say those requirements are interconnected. Nor is it a rule prerequisites must come from the same source.

Alignment usually has nothing to do with class.
You can gain a familiar from feats.
There is disagreement about what "arcane spellcaster level" means, but there's no requirement for the spellcaster level to also grant the Familiar.

"Arcane spellcaster level" could mean "level in an arcane casting class." Or "arcane caster level." Or "level in all classes that contributes to arcane casting."

Take a Wizard 2/Draconic Sorcerer 5 with Magical Knack (Sorcerer). Wizard gives you the Familiar ability. Is your "arcane spellcaster level" 5 (highest level in an arcane class), 7 (highest arcane caster level), or 7 (7 levels in arcane casting classes)?

Different people see it differently. Apropos of nothing, 3.5 went off of caster level so I lean that way, but that's just my opinion.

Lets assume it is 5 for now. There still isn't any reason he couldn't take Improved Familiar for Small Elemental (5th level). He meets all the requirements: Familiar, 5th arcane spellcaster level, and alignment. The familiar comes from one class, and the level comes from another, but there is no requirement that they come from the same class in the feat text.

[Samasboy1]

Actually, I have thought about this a little more and I have a bit of a different idea. This is basically a house rule, but I think it makes a lot of sense.

Where the feat says "arcane spellcaster level" just replace it with "effective wizard level." Why, you might ask? Because Familiars are, at base, a Wizard class feature in PF, and all other sources of Familiars give you an effective Wizard level to determine their abilities.

Carnivalist, Eagle Domain, and even Sorcerer determine Familiar benefits based on giving you an effective Wizard level. Boon Companion boosts effective level for Familiars (RAW only mentions Druid, but since it states it helps familiars should boost Wizard for them).

Thus you avoid situations where Carnivalist (being a Rogue, and therefore not an arcane spellcaster) get no benefit from Improved Familiar; and Draconic sorcerers do (as arcane spellcasters, but without the class giving them the Familiar ability).

Eldritch Heritage gives an effective Sorcerer level, which if a familiar is taken is then also an effective Wizard level as per Sorcerer.

[Devilkiller]

I kind of like Samasboy1's ruling. However, I suspect that there might be a lot of existing PCs who took Improved Familiar based on the assumption that "arcane spellcaster level" meant something like "level in a class which casts arcane spells" or "caster level related to a class which casts arcane spells".

I wonder if there's a way to make the ability work for both groups. Simply basing Improved Familiar off of character level would work, but it might leave some folks concerned about characters who take just a level or two of a class to gain a familiar and then take Improved Familiar. I'm not sure if that would be terrible considering that you can already get a familiar for a couple of feats or 3 rogue tricks without multiclassing.

This wouldn't be entirely without precedent since some important aspects of your familiar such as its hit points, attack bonus, and effective hit dice advance independently of your level in the class which granted you the familiar. This is different from how animal companions or eidolons work. If people want to spend 3 feats or a level and a feat to get a pet mephit I think that would probably be ok.

[olePigeon]

Devilkiller wrote:

I wonder if there's a way to make the ability work for both groups. Simply basing Improved Familiar off of character level would work, but it might leave some folks concerned about characters who take just a level or two of a class to gain a familiar and then take Improved Familiar. I'm not sure if that would be terrible considering that you can already get a familiar for a couple of feats or 3 rogue tricks without multiclassing.

It's not like an Animal Companion with potentially super awesome stats and abilities. The intelligence is nice, allowing many familiars to use stuff like wands which can be helpful, but then you risk them getting killed during combat with their measly HPs.

I don't see the problem with it, other than it adds flavor to a character. You put down 3 feats to gain 1 feat (usually Alertness), a bonus to a skill or maybe initiative, and a sometimes useful companion.

That's a huge trade off.

If you dip one level, you're giving up an entire level of your primary class, forfeiting any potential special abilities, bonus feats, etc. that go along with it until a later time. In PFS, that could be never. If you're a fighter type character wearing armor, good luck casting any of those cantrips or 1st level spells (assuming you have at least an 11 in Int or Cha.)