So, I've never been a fan of the barbarian, but I'm starting to think it's the best option for making a "natural attacks" based character. Namely, there's the "world serpent spirit" rage power that allows you to bypass the various alignement DRs. So I've been wondering, are there other rage powers that could help? Archetypes? I've been looking through, but I cant find anything obvious. Wondering if someone knew better than me.
Pounce is useful, but with the build I'm thinking (Tengu with 2claws and and a bite, all primary attacks) it's less necessary. I'm really looking for ways to overcome DR, like "eldritch claws". There are spels (like versatile weapons) but they dont apply.
Beast Totem hands down. The ability to constantly use your full attack is pretty important, and it gives claws. Not too keen on rage powers, but helmet of the mammoth lords gives a cheap gore to add to your full attack routine.
And are you allowed to take more than one totem? I seem to remeber that you cant for some reason.
Pounce is useful, but with the build I'm thinking (Tengu with 2claws and and a bite, all primary attacks) it's less necessary. I'm really looking for ways to overcome DR, like "eldritch claws". There are spels (like versatile weapons) but they dont apply.
Witch Hunter. It adds to damage to every attack in your routine and bonuses to saves. Using enough force will break through anything. Most things with aligned DR happen to have spells of some sort.
And yes, getting pounce is actually pretty useful, even for a tengu with 3 natural attacks. The rage claws also happen to do more damage, so there's even a bonus out of it.
And are you allowed to take more than one totem? I seem to remeber that you cant for some reason.
Can't take more than one totem no. Because arbitrary.
Totem rage powers grant powers related to a theme. A barbarian cannot select from more than one group of totem rage powers; for example, a barbarian who selects a beast totem rage power cannot later choose to gain any of the dragon totem rage powers (any rage power with “dragon totem” in its title).
Pounce is useful, but with the build I'm thinking (Tengu with 2claws and and a bite, all primary attacks) it's less necessary. I'm really looking for ways to overcome DR, like "eldritch claws". There are spels (like versatile weapons) but they dont apply.
I played a Tengu Barby and took fiend totem to add a d8 gore to those 3 attacks at level 2..insane!
Well, I've been working a basic build, and here goes:
Tengu (25 pts)
Str 16 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 10
1 Power Attack
2 Lesser Beast Totem +1 str
3 Boar Style (as per the qualification for the tengu claw attacks)
4 Superstition
5 Eldritch Claws
6 Beast Totem
7 Boar Ferocity
8 Witch Hunter +1 str
9 Rending Claws
10 Greater Beast Totem
11 Boar Shred
Items neede: AoMF, Helm of the mammoth lord
A few things I'm wondering:
-Can you use a style while raging (here, boar style)
-Do the beast totem claws still count as "unarmed strikes" as the tengu ability?
-Would the AOMF improve the helm of the mammoth lord?
If you're not married to the Tengu idea, you can do a Half-Orc with the "Tusky" alternate racial trait. You start with a bite attack, at level 2 you take lesser beast totem for 2 claws. You take weapon focus for your bite since it's a secondary attack, and at level 3 you take it for your claws (or power attack if you're feeling saucy, or extra rage power if you want to start racking up wacky barbarian powers). If you really want you start multi-classing into fighter, and at level 4 you take improved natural attack with the fighter bonus feat to make your claws even better, do it again at Fighter 2 for the bite, and at fighter 3 (level 6 overall) you take Eldritch Claws, so now your natural attacks count as magical and silver for overcoming DR. Then you either continue taking levels of fighter to get more natural fighting feats, or you go back to barbarian for more rage powers.
I was actually just thinking about building this over the weekend as well. If you don't like half-orcs, you could go with a tiefling, they also have a bite alternate trait. Tengu just seems a little weak with the negative con modifier.
Yeah, but you do start out with 3 natural attacks as a tengu. What I'm alway worried about as a barbarian is what you're supposed to do when you run out of rage. But yeah, I am trying to get this to work for a tengu.
Yeah, but you do start out with 3 natural attacks as a tengu. What I'm alway worried about as a barbarian is what you're supposed to do when you run out of rage. But yeah, I am trying to get this to work for a tengu.
Its actually really hard to run out of rage after a few levels.
Pounce is useful, but with the build I'm thinking (Tengu with 2claws and and a bite, all primary attacks) it's less necessary. I'm really looking for ways to overcome DR, like "eldritch claws". There are spels (like versatile weapons) but they dont apply.I played a Tengu Barby and took fiend totem to add a d8 gore to those 3 attacks at level 2..insane!
Its actually relatively cheap to buy gore because of the helmet of the mammoth lords.
-Can you use a style while raging (here, boar style)
-Do the beast totem claws still count as "unarmed strikes" as the tengu ability?
-Would the AOMF improve the helm of the mammoth lord?
1. Yes definitely. You can also use power attack, reckless abandon, fight defensively, combat expertise, crane wing... etc.
2. Why not? Your always wielding your claws after all.3. Again, why not? Its your natural attack.
I think the best natural attack character is actually probably a Beastmorph Alchemist (usually with Vivisectionist).
Tengu get improved supertition bonuses.
@ karossi: that's what I was thinking too. Its why I didnt include improved natural attacks.
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Depending on the style in question, you may need Feral Combat Training in order to use it. For example, I'm fairly certain you can't apply Dragon Style's bonus to damage without Feral Combat Training in that weapon, but I believe you could do a Crane Riposte without it as long as you use an unarmed strike, not your natural attack, to counterattack with.
I've toyed with the idea of playing an unarmed Barb with the elemental rage powers and an AoMF set to elemental damage. You could do the best sound effects ever.
Well, I know I can apply style bonuses on my claws at least. Though there may be better alternatives: dragon style could be useful to adding damage (and maybe adding elemental fist later?). Since everything is a primary attacks (claw, bite and gore) I'd have 4 attacks. The AOMF would definitly be worth it.
I don't want to repost something that long, but there's a lot of good ways to get natural attacks or improve upon them. I tried to round up a bunch of them here
Don't forget feral combat training and multiattack if you're not playing PFS.
I wouldn't advise the Eldritch Claws feat.
What you do is get an AoMF, start it off with just the furious weapon property (its effectively a +2 enhancement bonus while raging) upgrade it to a +2 when you can. This makes it a +3 weapon.
You now bypass DR for magic, silver and cold iron.
:P
Unless there has been a nerf, Tengu claws on the hands and beast totem claws on the feat.
You can't put claws on a biped's feet. Talons go on feet.
Instead of eldritch claws, extra rage power for ghost rager..
Tengu count as having IUS for feat prereqs, but to actually use style feats or brawling armor with natural attacks would still require Feral Combat Training for each attack type..
Unless there has been a nerf, Tengu claws on the hands and beast totem claws on the feat.You can't put claws on a biped's feet. Talons go on feet.
Is that "only" logic speaking, or is there a rule about it ?
It is the cheesiest approach for a biped Eidolon to get 5 natural attacks. 1 pt bite, 1 pt claws (feet), innate claws (hands). Color me satisfied if you can point out where it says you can't do that.
RAW : Eidolon's evolution for claws says it can be applied once, only, on limbs(legs), which obviously meant for a quadruped forelegs versus hind legs, but alas as written, a biped can do it too.
Unless there has been a nerf, Tengu claws on the hands and beast totem claws on the feat.You can't put claws on a biped's feet. Talons go on feet.Is that "only" logic speaking, or is there a rule about it ?
It is the cheesiest approach for a biped Eidolon to get 5 natural attacks. 1 pt bite, 1 pt claws (feet), innate claws (hands). Color me satisfied if you can point out where it says you can't do that.
RAW : Eidolon's evolution for claws says it can be applied once, only, on limbs(legs), which obviously meant for a quadruped forelegs versus hind legs, but alas as written, a biped can do it too.
It's a debate that's gone around a lot. Eidolons are different things. A very few monsters have "claws" on their feet. But monsters are allowed to do things that PCs can't. The general presumption is that (particularly for balance reasons), claws go on arms (or arm equivalent appendages) and talons go on legs. I don't think it's actually been FAQed at this point, though.
It's a debate that's gone around a lot. Eidolons are different things. A very few monsters have "claws" on their feet. But monsters are allowed to do things that PCs can't. The general presumption is that (particularly for balance reasons), claws go on arms (or arm equivalent appendages) and talons go on legs. I don't think it's actually been FAQed at this point, though.Unless there has been a nerf, Tengu claws on the hands and beast totem claws on the feat.You can't put claws on a biped's feet. Talons go on feet.Is that "only" logic speaking, or is there a rule about it ?
It is the cheesiest approach for a biped Eidolon to get 5 natural attacks. 1 pt bite, 1 pt claws (feet), innate claws (hands). Color me satisfied if you can point out where it says you can't do that.
RAW : Eidolon's evolution for claws says it can be applied once, only, on limbs(legs), which obviously meant for a quadruped forelegs versus hind legs, but alas as written, a biped can do it too.
People have basically compaigned for an eratta by submitting the question for a FAQ. I am sure you can hunt down the debates with a quick search. However, there has been no eratta as of yet.
By the way talons are claws on the feet of reptiles. That said, I am not interested in having the debate all over again. I am just pointing out to the OP that many beleive it is legal and that there is no specific rule prohibiting it.
I think that the thing with eidolons is that you can have them be quadrapeds or centaurs using any base form (might seem silly with a biped, since it can't get any primary attacks with them...but hey, faster speed might be worth it to some), and with that it would be perfectly understandable to have claws on the front feet (which is indicated by the fact that only one set of feet can get claws in this way)
But if you do a search around the rules board, you can find plenty of threads (usually about catfolk barbarians for some reason) where more experienced posters linked the appropriate developers' comments.
Is that "only" logic speaking, or is there a rule about it ?
There's a dev quote floating around the boards about it somewhere. I accept those sorts of things as true. Wish I had the link--it gets brought up a lot, though, so I'm sure you can find it quickly.
It is the cheesiest approach for a biped Eidolon to get 5 natural attacks. 1 pt bite, 1 pt claws (feet), innate claws (hands). Color me satisfied if you can point out where it says you can't do that.
The problem with your approach here is that you made an Eidolon that wasn't a quadruped. There is literally nothing your eidolon can possibly do that is better than pouncing. Two points more Strenght or whatever the Biped gets is a joke compared to full attacking under almost any circumstances. Archery > Pounce > every other physical attack option
RAW : Eidolon's evolution for claws says it can be applied once, only, on limbs(legs), which obviously meant for a quadruped forelegs versus hind legs, but alas as written, a biped can do it too.
Eidolons have their own special rules and exceptions and as such, you can't really use them to form general rules to apply to everyone.
i think for a lot of builds its actually pounce > archery > every other option... the lance-pounce builds out damage archery by enough to make up for the occasions when you can't charge, and eidolons get outrageous by taking a centaur form to pounce with an iterating 2hand weapon plus all their natural attacks.
we're all kind of off the topic of OP though, except to reiterate that the best way to add damage is to make more full attacks; pounce will accomplish that and dragon style would come in handy for upping damage and letting you charge more often (charge through would also help)
Are the style feats really required ?
Seems to me it's kindda feat heavy (boar tree (3)+ Feral) for a couple bleed dmg. Unless you also fancy the intimidate option.
As to the choice of the race, besides flavor, in what way is picking a Tengu required ? Except as noted you skip the requirement of a 5th feat (IUS) for style feats.
Animal Fury + beast totem gives 3 attacks, and the helm applies to any race as well to add a 4th, alas secondary, gore attack.
side step : is Animal Fury description making consensus as to whether it's NOT a primary, but truly only a secondary natural attack on it's own ? It's only mechanically described as being used with other attacks, so the given -5 to-hit fits a primary or secondary attack when used with iteratives, without Multiattack.
If the style feats aren't that important, i concur that you can get 4 attacks quite easily (any race), and the pouncing from Beast totem makes it all the more impressive, and thus have a lot of free feat slots for extra rage powers XD
Ratfolk and the trait that gives you a bite attack.
Bite/Claw/Claw/tail razor (or whatever it's called) for four attacks at level 1.
An agile furious amulet of the might fist would be a good choice.
Go with weapon finesse and piranha strike to pump dex instead of strength.
i think for a lot of builds its actually pounce > archery > every other option... the lance-pounce builds out damage archery by enough to make up for the occasions when you can't charge
I know that pouncing generally outdamages archery, but it's not just about corners and difficult terrain and stuff that prevents charging, it's also about pure distance. Spells have really long ranges, and it's hard to be fast enough to charge long range casters, while archery can still ruin them (well, unless they know about Fickle Winds, which really just goes to show that magic is better than all non magic options, even archery and pounce...).
So is there any other way of getting pounce without Greater Beast Totem??
So is there any other way of getting pounce without Greater Beast Totem??
Yes, but most of them are specific. Catfolk get claw pounce, there's a vulpine Pounce for Kitsune, the spell beast form can grant pounce(and wild shape by extension), Magus can use spell combat with bladed dash spell for a quasi-pounce, and summoner's eidolons get pounce at level one if they go quad and use 1 evolution point on it(and synthesis by extension). There are probably a few I missed, but those are big ones.
So is there any other way of getting pounce without Greater Beast Totem??
Quadruped Eidolons/Synthesists can get it at level 1.
Anyone with access to Beast Form II can get it, too, which means Druid 6, Alchemist 10 (Beastmorph Alchemist 10 can get it with mutagen, not just an elixir), Wizard 7, Sorcerer 8, or Magus 10.
So is there any other way of getting pounce without Greater Beast Totem??Quadruped Eidolons/Synthesists can get it at level 1.
Anyone with access to Beast Form II can get it, too, which means Druid 6, Alchemist 10 (Beastmorph Alchemist 10 can get it with mutagen, not just an elixir), Wizard 7, Sorcerer 8, or Magus 10.
So mostly mid level melee casters except for the racial options (the kitsune one is particularly nice, since it doesn't restrict the attacks you can use; works well with scout rogues).
Sadly, based solely off of my experience looking for games online, I have trouble finding any that even allow normal summoners, let alone the beast that is the synthesist. But eidolons do make decent melee characters even before they turn into multiarmed behemoths, and I kind of like the concept of people playing as one (maybe dividing it between two players? Could be good for introducing newbies since they can die all they want without losing the character they got amped about)
There are also a few archetypes that get close with pseudo pounces. Two fighter archetypes, the mobile fighter and the dawnflower dervish, sacrifice their highest BAB attack for a single move with a full attack. Dervish Dancer bards also have it good, since they not only get a move action, but they also get huge scaling bonuses to speed that makes that move the same as a barbarian pounce.
So mostly mid level melee casters except for the racial options (the kitsune one is particularly nice, since it doesn't restrict the attacks you can use; works well with scout rogues).
Er, isn't Vulpine Pounce completely worthless because it requires you to be in sucky fox form, which means you only have a bite and no hands or anything? You can't take iteratives with a bite, so unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike and/or Feral Combat Training, it looks to me like the full attack at the end of that charge does nothing.
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The kitsune form is able to wield weapons; it is a humanoid fox. There is a separate feat which grants a fox shape as well, but it is completely unrelated to the vulpine pounce feat.
Yeah, the kitsune can't even normally turn into a normal, small little fox unless they train for it specifically. That is another feat which is not a prerequisite for vulpine pounce, so it is unrelated. So vulpine pounce is basically a charge that replicates that moment in horror movies where the werewolf/alien shapeshifter/etc. decides to jump the unsuspecting victim and suddenly rips them to shreds.
I'll admit though, that tiny fox form is rather useless since it is mostly for disguise, but kitsune already have a feat that can be taken from level 1 that lets them copy the face of anyone they met before anyway.
For the BAB prerequisite for the pounce...well, I wouldn't go full rogue. Maybe 4 levels, to get the "sneak attack on charge" ability, and then the rest would either be fighter or ranger. That would get BAB+10 at level 11, which sounds about right. 2d6 sneak attack dice and all those fighter bonuses make a decent amount of damage. I might consider taking more rogue after level 11, since fighters' best bonuses mostly appear rather early, so focusing on more sneak attack dice wouldn't be so bad.