IMHO, Justin simply can't produce a build that proves his point, so he's trying to divert the attention to unrelated topics.
I can throw out a monk real fast if you'd like. Been a while since I've tried to build one. Here's the feats and array for a 12th level monk with a bit of variety and no gimmicks. Needs a +4 headband of wisdom by 11th though. Was hard to pick something for the first 3 feats. I noticed the prereqs for the greater maneuver feats usually include int 13, BAB reqs, and combat expertise and that stinks for a monk.
BTW - I've seen a number of times the Superstitious Rage Power being used to counter the Monks' Saves... Doesn't the fact that the Barbarian can't be healed or buffed while Raging in this light mark that as a serious drawback?
Nope. You don't usually get that many buffs in combat and supernatural abilities can still heal the barbarian just fine. At best all I ever need is my haste personally, but casters tend to go before me.
And it is not sure that somebody in the party will have a supernatural way to heal the barbarian. And if you wait for the wizard to cast haste before your turn you can be targeted before activating your rage.
But by the other hand, superstitious indeed is the strongest of rage powers, IMHO. Still, the monk have better save than any arcane spell caster, rangers, gunslingers...
Nope. You don't usually get that many buffs in combat and supernatural abilities can still heal the barbarian just fine. At best all I ever need is my haste personally, but casters tend to go before me.
Basically, the Bard or the Paladin can help, but the Cleric can't cast cast Cure Moderate Wounds or Magic Circle Against Evil? Still seems like a drawback.
(Deleted a character example - I realized he goes beyond the WBL due to a magic tattoo and a Holy Nunchuku)
And it is not sure that somebody in the party will have a supernatural way to heal the barbarian. And if you wait for the wizard to cast haste before your turn you can be targeted before activating your rage.
But by the other hand, superstitious indeed is the strongest of rage powers, IMHO. Still, the monk have better save than any arcane spell caster, rangers, gunslingers...
If the Barbarian makes the save, he still get's half the healing. And he gets any buff the Wizard casts on him during the 1st round, since casters tend to have higher initiative anyway.
Compare to a Monk's SR. It's up all the time, including the 1st round, has about a 50% chance of blocking any healing spells or supernatural ability (such as Channel Energy) and completely blocks them. No half-healing for the Monk.
Yeah, Monks have great saves and touch AC. No one is complaining about their saves and touch AC.
I'll go one better. Here is the Monk I use in the campaign I play in. For varying campaign reasons, he is an Aasimar Monk. He is also unoptimized,
Right, unoptimzied. The guy that somehow has a fulltime mage armor is totally unoptimized Nope! Not using any abusive things here.
I actually deleted the guy because I realized we went beyond WBL.
This is someone from the middle of a campaign. Every PC got a tattoo that could cast either a Level 2 spell once a day or a Level 1 spell twice a day. For me, it was an easy call.
You've now got me fascinated, (but not Fascinated) though. I'm going to try to redo in standard form and see what I come up with.
Just to keep you up to speed, my monk looks like it is going to be a Sensei/Ki Mystic with several retrained feats (including Dimensional Dervish as well as Punishing Kick and Touch of Serenity). I'm thinking of giving him slippers of spider climbing and, if I can fit it in, Lightening Stance (so as to continue the "Nightcrawler" theme).
I'm certain someone is going to complain that "Colossus" (an optimized Barbarian) can punch harder than "Nightcrawler", but I'm more concerned about whether the player playing "Nightcrawler" feels like he's contributing.
Again... contrary to what MrSin says, I seriously question my optimization ability. :) I went for versatility of options - Boots of Speed and Ki Pool allow differing amounts of stackable adjustments (top AC of 30, max attacks six +10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5), with ability to Demoralize at a range, decently disarm, and use Stunning Fist to debuff. Also, 50' movement with AC 29 on AoO (assuming he fails the Acrobatics check) to move around the battlefield unharmed.
I chose to go Core only because, as I mentioned earlier, I think Power Creep makes the other classes outstrip the Monk even further once you factor in the other books.
+10 points if the barbarian is not a superstitious beast totem guy.
Only fair if the Monk is not a Qinggong, Sohei or Zen Archer, the Fighter doesn't have Power Attack or Weapon Focus and the Druid doesn't have Natural Spell.
"...with several retrained feats (including Dimensional Dervish as well as Punishing Kick and Touch of Serenity)."
So... Using optional rules that are usually not available? That doesn't make a very convincing argument.
I was told by the people in this thread that they wanted a 12th level monk due to PFS. If PFS is a consideration, then why not use its rules (including retraining)?
Ok, I would like to see that bard that defeated the monk. 10th level she was?
Yeah. After my friend's Fighter shut down all of the guy's bragging about how unstoppable monks are when you make them correctly, like him and he started in on 3/4 casters, I took on his challenge under his specifications. As it turns out I still have the bard I threw together on my myth-weavers.
If you're curious, her HP is so high because he (the monk guy) insisted on everyone having max-HP so he wouldn't be 1-shot by any silly builds (which is kind of a laugh, 'cause an ubercharger is still going to eat through 130+ HP in one charge :P).
Everyone agreed that the masterwork quality by RAW is its own modification and mithral is its own modification, ergo the -0 check penalty on the mithral breastplate. Not that I really cared since it would just be a -1 penalty to attack rolls otherwise which wasn't even worth spending a feat on to negate.
Tactics were pretty simple. Given phantom steed lasts 10 hours she was riding on it at the beginning of their encounter. She can auto-cast most of her spells while her mount is moving. It has 100 ft. speed and tended to double move each round as was convenient, ignoring most forms of difficult terrain. It also can walk on water. I had some fun with him chasing the horse around in the wilderness.
I buffed with heroism and then activated freedom of movement as part of a performance and hopped off my horse and decided to melee with him. With heroism and Inspire Courage active my bard has a +18/+13 to hit with her short sword and deals 1d6+12 damage with Arcane Strike on each successful hit. Due to my AC, the monk just couldn't land a hit, and grappling me was just strait up impossible (not that my CMD was less than my AC, but this pretty much shut down any odd "huge CMB" builds). I proceeded to pound on him for several rounds while he flurry-of-missed me.
I decided to play a little harder, 5 ft. stepped back and cast greater invisibility which lasts 10 rounds. The monk tried to hit me where I was at but now that was pretty useless. I then proceeded to attack his flat-footed AC each round, so I pretty much never hit missed him. He dropped unconscious in a couple of rounds. When he dropped and whined about it being unfair to be invisible, I healed him, standard-action dismissed the invisibility and had my character say "C'mon, that isn't all you've got is it? I'm just a little bard!" or something to that degree.
He forfeited since I had scarcely began to use my resources or really get serious about the fight. I didn't even bother to buy any potions or anything or any consumables. Nor did I use item creation (I'd have been wearing better gear if so, or at least more gear).
His idea of a monk done right was apparently one from a game where the GM coddles or patronizes or something. I'm not sure exactly, all I know was his bragging was getting on our nerves. :P
I could have cast haste on myself and my mount and just let the mount kite the monk while I filled him full of arrows at 3 x 1d6+11 damage per arrow, but I wanted to melee with him for sport.
EDIT: Actually in hindsight, I don't think I ever bothered to cast freedom of movement because I wasn't worried about him grappling me (since I would have just pounded his face with my short-sword while he was grappling me with AC penalties anyway).
It's been over a year since this happened, so forgive me. :P
If the barbarian hit harder but your monk can do something (more or less important) that the barbarian can not, then the monk is fine.
A straight up Sensei/Ki Mystic at 12th level can do quite a lot that a Barbarian can't do and, regardless of what MrSin says, a Sensei/Ki Mystic is definitely a monk.
If the barbarian hit harder but your monk can do something (more or less important) that the barbarian can not, then the monk is fine.
A straight up Sensei/Ki Mystic at 12th level can do quite a lot that a Barbarian can't do and, regardless of what MrSin says, a Sensei/Ki Mystic is definitely a monk.
No, he's not a monk. He's as much of a monk as a Zen Archer or Sohei or MoMS is a monk. But your going to insist he's a monk to prove nothing is wrong with the monk. Your even depending on another class's class feature by going Sensei.
He's as much of a monk as a Zen Archer or Sohei or MoMS is a monk.
Which means that he's a monk. Archetypes are not variant classes. They fall under the same class which, in this case, is the Monk. Perhaps you meant CRB Monk. But, you didn't say that (and, if you had, I would have agreed with you). What you said was confusing if that's what you meant, though, because you used the wrong word and I can't read your mind. Monk (sans CRB) includes archetypes.
He's as much of a monk as a Zen Archer or Sohei or MoMS is a monk.
Which means that he's a monk. Archetypes are not variant classes. They fall under the same class which, in this case, is the Monk.
Yes, he's a monk archetype, but he is no longer the monk we were talking about. People don't complain about Sensei, or Zen Archer, or MoMS, or Sohei. They complain about the monk. They might complain about those archetypes, but they are going to be entirely different complaints.
Also, what a Zen Archer is going to do for your party and in combat is going to be wildly different than a core monk or mounted Sohei.
Please link where you stated that you were not including any Monk archetypes.
Further, why is it important what the CRB Monk is like? Everyone who has kept up with the rule base knows that the Monk has had a lot of improvements since then.
Further, why is it important what the CRB Monk is like? Everyone who has kept up with the rule base knows that the Monk has had a lot of improvements since then.
No, the monk has had no improvements beyond the monkeying around blog. What he has had, is patches that don't work out well together or require investment. The monk itself sucks, and you still don't get your shirtless face puncher guy. The sensei is the one that has great teammate skills(though still not as nice as a caster...), and the zen archer is a great archer, and the Tetori is a great grappler, but what is the monk, eh?
Please link where you stated that you were not including any Monk archetypes.
Further, why is it important what the CRB Monk is like? Everyone who has kept up with the rule base knows that the Monk has had a lot of improvements since then.
Probably comes from the fact that many of the archetypes make them into entirely new classes for the most part. For example, the sohei is a monk in name only (and not even then really) as it shares very little similarities with the base monk.
Archetypes are also generally looked down upon because it always means you are going to be giving something up, and that something may be something that you want from a stylistic perspective but have to trade out of to become mechanically viable.
Finally, archetypes have a bad reputation in these conversations for the same reason Schrodinger wizards do except it's more justified. Part of the problem with the "Schrodinger wizard" is the idea that he will always have just the right spell for the job (which humorously may be the case since smart wizards will frequently keep scrolls of rarely used but immensely helpful when needed spells around; plus a wizard can change his whole style of play around in 8 hours). A lot of people respond to general criticisms of a class with "but X archetype". This is really irritating because in many cases you either cannot take all of the archetypes that are used to address the issues or by the time that you do it doesn't resemble the original class in any meaningful way.
I could post my 8th level Dwarven monk, but between optimization and (completely absurd and out of place, IMO) barbarian builds, it might not shine much though.
So I prefer to wait for that promised monk build...
In JustinRocket's defense, by disallowing certain archetypes it sounds like you're saying "Monks suck unless you're a Monk".
If you're going to allow the non-Core stuff, you have to allow the non-Core stuff...
The problem is that the two camps are using the same word, but have completely different definitions from camp to camp. The monk is fine camp are referring to the class as it exists in the game. The archetypes of that class work and work well so what's the problem. Those in the monk needs help/monks suck(its unfortunate that such a large group is unfortunately in only one camp) use the word monk to mean either a shaolin monk or a mobile wushish skirmisher who's best weapon is his unarmed body. The fluff suggests that monk class should be what the second camp expects, but its not. All of those concepts are better served by another class. The problem seems to be that those in the first camp always seem to miss it when those of us in the second camp say monk's suck, but they have good archetypes. Then get confused when the thread reaches the inevitable building phase and they produce a tiefling/aasimar(if a build doesn't work with mutiple races then the race is cool not the class) archetype monk and we say that's not what we were talking about. We mean that the class doesn't fit its fluff/expectation. While the other side says the archetypes(which aren't that mobile skirmisher mystic in a robe) work just fine.
Also if you create a sensei it should be compared to support classes like full casters and bard. while it has some unique abilities the others is often much better and offer better long term assistance as well as offering either more damage or more control.
Mechanics are just easier to measure because they have less variables such as what the GM would let you do.
A lack of interest or concern in rollplaying does not mean a lack of interest or concern in mechanics. The question of how the monk contributes to the party has to consider mechanics, but it doesn't have to consider how the monk compares to other classes. How it compares to other classes is an issue of number optimization (ie rollplaying), whether and to what extent it contributes is not.
And again I point to my example of the commoner. The commoner can contribute, doesn't mean you should play a commoner.
Assuming you aren't rollplaying, you should play whatever you want to play. If you want to play a commoner, then you should play a commoner.
then it doesn't matter if your monk can cobtribute to the party. If you want to play a monk, do it, regardless if it is able to contribute or not.
Mechanics are just easier to measure because they have less variables such as what the GM would let you do.
A lack of interest or concern in rollplaying does not mean a lack of interest or concern in mechanics. The question of how the monk contributes to the party has to consider mechanics, but it doesn't have to consider how the monk compares to other classes. How it compares to other classes is an issue of number optimization (ie rollplaying), whether and to what extent it contributes is not.
And again I point to my example of the commoner. The commoner can contribute, doesn't mean you should play a commoner.
Assuming you aren't rollplaying, you should play whatever you want to play. If you want to play a commoner, then you should play a commoner.
then it doesn't matter if your monk can cobtribute to the party. If you want to play a monk, do it, regardless if it is able to contribute or not.
This is what I do. As I said before, monk is fun as a 'hard mode' class when nobody else is optimized. He has a lot of goofy abilities to play around with. I have plans to make a Tetori STR monk modeled after Zangief.
The monk itself sucks, and you still don't get your shirtless face puncher guy.
Okay, here's my second attempt at Shirtless Face Puncher Guy. Same basic concept as the first - we're looking for variety of options for different situations.
Spoiler:
Human Monk Lvl 10 (20 point build)
Str 22 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 8
23 AC +2 Init Walk 60'
+9 Fort +9 Refl +10 Will
CMB: +16 +18 Disarm +21 Disarm w/Nunchuku
Notable Skills:Acrobatics +21 (+43 to Jump), Climb +12, Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +18, Perception +15, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +14
Flurry of Blows: +17/+17/+12/+12 2d6+8 damage
MW Nunchaku: +14/+9 (Can be flurried) 1d6+6
Equipment: Monk's Robes, Belt of Giant Strength +4, Ring of Protection +2, Helm of Inspired Wisdom +2, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Armor +2, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
Ki Pool: 8
Stunning Fist (Stun/Fatigue/Sickened) DC 18
Improved Evasion, Immunity To Disease, Slow Fall 60', Still Mind, Wholeness of Body
Again... same basic concept as before, done at Level 10 to compare to the 10 Minute Bard (who will still take SFG, don't get me wrong... but may have a SLIGHTLY tougher time of it, at least until he turns invisible). I believe someone mentioned Level 12; I can up him there as desired.
In reference to what he brings to the team, he is SUPER mobile. The 43 to jump clears six feet of height and ten feet of distance without a roll, not even factoring in the high Acrobatics / Mobility to deal with attacks of opportunity. Admittedly, I did have to sacrifice some defense to be better at punching faces. Still, the combination of Ki and Boots of Speed still give plenty of options. Not super-hyped on the Stunning Fist DC, but woe be the unfortunate opponent that does get stunned, or get hit in the surprise round while flat-footed. At maximum, he's looking at eight attacks at +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12.
He also brings a decent Disarm to the table with his nunchaku, though he'd probably need more than one attempt. The Dazzling Display also allows for demoralization to help the rest of the team.
Mechanics are just easier to measure because they have less variables such as what the GM would let you do.
A lack of interest or concern in rollplaying does not mean a lack of interest or concern in mechanics. The question of how the monk contributes to the party has to consider mechanics, but it doesn't have to consider how the monk compares to other classes. How it compares to other classes is an issue of number optimization (ie rollplaying), whether and to what extent it contributes is not.
And again I point to my example of the commoner. The commoner can contribute, doesn't mean you should play a commoner.
Assuming you aren't rollplaying, you should play whatever you want to play. If you want to play a commoner, then you should play a commoner.
then it doesn't matter if your monk can cobtribute to the party. If you want to play a monk, do it, regardless if it is able to contribute or not.
Except this impinges on allowing other people at the table to roleplay.
Y'see, A great many people in the real world engaged in cooperative activities, especially those as potentially hazardous as what RPG characters engage in, tend to resent those who don't pull their weight.
You're presenting a character others would naturally refuse to adventure with while abusing your status as a PC to force them from reacting as they actually would to your character: kick him out of the group either for their own safety because they consider him unreliable or for his own safety because they consider him weak.
That's metagaming just as much as memorizing the bestiary or pre-planning a build that doesn't make thematic sense at some levels.
The monk itself sucks, and you still don't get your shirtless face puncher guy.
Okay, here's my second attempt at Shirtless Face Puncher Guy. Same basic concept as the first - we're looking for variety of options for different situations.
** spoiler omitted **
Again... same basic concept as before, done at Level 10 to compare to the 10 Minute Bard (who will still take SFG, don't get me wrong... but may have a SLIGHTLY tougher time of it, at least until he turns invisible). I believe someone mentioned Level 12; I can up him there as desired.
In reference to what he brings to the team, he is SUPER mobile. The 43 to jump clears six feet of height and ten feet of distance without a roll, not even factoring in the high Acrobatics / Mobility to deal with attacks of opportunity. Admittedly, I did have to sacrifice some defense to be better at punching faces. Still, the combination of Ki and Boots of Speed still give plenty of options. Not super-hyped on the Stunning Fist DC, but woe be the unfortunate opponent that does get stunned, or get hit in the...
average monster ac for CR12-14 is 27 to 29. Which means against a decent monster you have a 55% chance of hitting. Unfortunately that's where the idea of flurry of misses comes.from.
I Understand that soheis and zen archers are diferent from the mental image of what a "monk" is. But, are people saying that all archetyps fall in this category? is not the dunken master iconic enough?
On the other hand, everyone know core monks sucks, thereis no point in makin pointless restrictions in this case of threads. Almost all classes get improved when you allow non corematerial.
+10 points if the barbarian is not a superstitious beast totem guy.
Only fair if the Monk is not a Qinggong, Sohei or Zen Archer, the Fighter doesn't have Power Attack or Weapon Focus and the Druid doesn't have Natural Spell.
;)
I think there are a couple of more archetypes outse quinggon, sohei and zen archers athar work just fine.
There is also a couple of way for vanilla fighters to be good without power attack,
Ok, I would like to see that bard that defeated the monk. 10th level she was?
Yeah. After my friend's Fighter shut down all of the guy's bragging about how unstoppable monks are when you make them correctly, like him and he started in on 3/4 casters, I took on his challenge under his specifications. As it turns out I still have the bard I threw together on my myth-weavers.
I think there are a couple of more archetypes outse quinggon, sohei and zen archers athar work just fine.
There is also a couple of way for vanilla fighters to be good without power attack,
There are also ways to make Barbarians awesome with Superstition and Beast Totem. And showed you that before. ^^
It is true, but still far far away from the cannonical barbarian build. Does nobody else have problem with that? it is probably the only martial with that big gap between their different builds.
I think there are a couple of more archetypes outse quinggon, sohei and zen archers athar work just fine.
There is also a couple of way for vanilla fighters to be good without power attack,
There are also ways to make Barbarians awesome with Superstition and Beast Totem. And showed you that before. ^^
It is true, but still far far away from the cannonical barbarian build. Does nobody else have problem with that? it is probably the only martial with that big gap between their different builds.
I doubt it is. The good ol' 2-handed Fighter with Power Attack and the whole WF feat chain is just as common.
I Understand that soheis and zen archers are diferent from the mental image of what a "monk" is. But, are people saying that all archetyps fall in this category? is not the dunken master iconic enough?
On the other hand, everyone know core monks sucks, thereis no point in makin pointless restrictions in this case of threads. Almost all classes get improved when you allow non corematerial.
right the class as a whole improves. Every druid can use.natural spell. Every decent combat feat improves every fighter. The decent monk archetypes rewrite the class into something that doesn't fit the fluff so many are looking for. Yes order of the bow is great but is it great or is archery the best style in the game. Sohei is good but its mainly fighter abilities bolted onto a modified monk Chasis. Quigong is good but not great. Its best abilities only allow you to catch up on the NA bonus your bad amulet took out or grant you a couple of evocation spells.
A straight up Sensei/Ki Mystic at 12th level can do quite a lot that a Barbarian can't do and, regardless of what MrSin says, a Sensei/Ki Mystic is definitely a monk.
I'm gonna go ahead and say a Sensei/Ki Mystic isn't a monk mechanically. Now, in game you can call him a monk, and you could do the same with unarmed fighter, inquisitor/cleric of irori, certain ninja builds, etc. But mechanically, you don't have the monk's flurry of blows , or the monk's super-speed, or even just the monk's evasion. Now, I like the archetypes that replace flurry/evasion/fast movement sometimes, Like Tetori and Sohei are amazing, but it isn't really a "monk". I personally believe that a monk is someone who can get a bunch of unarmed strikes in in 1 round, move really fast, and is nearly immune to magic. However, if that is what I'm after, why not make a barbarian with superstition, beast totem, Imp. Unarmed Strike, and TWF feats, maybe double slice? Or a brawler fighter with TWF, Double Slice, Imp. Unarmed Strike, save buff feats, fancy boots and a ring of evasion, wearing light armor? It would take about as much, if not less, optimization as a decent monk that still fits a monk theme.
As a side note, does anyone else find it hilarious that the monk, the guy in the party who you would prefer to get dominated if anyone had to be, is nearly immune to dominate person? Just sayin.
I am not a monk expert, but you are leaving behind severalother archetypes that can be good too. And those archetypes are not really diferent fro teh iconics ideas of a monk.
I am not a monk expert, but you are leaving behind severalother archetypes that can be good too. And those archetypes are not really diferent fro teh iconics ideas of a monk.
My wife has the computer and the kindle doesn't handle the PFsrd very well. So I had to cut the research short.
=== Gear ===
+2 Belt of phys perfection 16 K
+2 headband of wis 4 K
+3 Silversheen temple sword 8,5K
+2 Bracers of armor 4 K
+1 amulet of nat armor 2 K
+1 ring of protection 2 K
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier 5,5 K
Cracked pale green prism Ion stone (attack) 4 K
Cloack of resistance +2 4 K
3 K remaining (probably spended in potions of diferent kind)
