EL-6 encounter (EPIC) for at least 2 level 6 characters.
(CR 1/2) 4 bandits per PC-1 (So if 5 PCs, 3X4 bandits) http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-0/bandit-human-warrior-2
(CR 2) 1 Pyrotechnics (fireworks) trap (Will 13 to blind for 1d4+1 rounds), and (CR 2) 1 web trap that blocks the PCs way to the archers up top.
EL+1 due to area advantage for enemies.
I recently threw my party up against this "mini-boss" encounter built using my array for building variable encounters for PCs. All of the Bandits gained 1 flask of Alchemists fire in the event that a tanky character got to them.
So, how this encounter works is the PCs walk into a large open space, the door at the end is closed, and there is a brassiere hanging from a pole with a key under it. The key is for the door, but this is a trap. If a character steps within 10 feet of the brassiere the pyrotechnics trap goes off. This is the que for the bandits, who are guarding this area, to pop up and attack the least armored looking people there in the hopes that they can defeat their enemies.
2 of the bandits, near the back wall where the PCs walked in activate a portcullis at the beginning of the room to trap the PCs in the encounter. This is being factored in as a non-combat obstacle since it is obviously there so no one should be standing under it.
The characters are not trapped in the room and must face the encounter since they failed to sneak past it.
On the surprise round the PCs surprised, potentially blinded, so the bandits are attacking flat-footed. Even with the PCs being level 6 the bandits are prioritizing the clothies, and pretty much saving the people in metal armor for last.
At the end of the room near the door there is a narrow area that has a web-trap that activates if someone gets too close--if this activates without the pyrotechnics trap activated, the pyrotechnics trap activates--possibly trapping anyone trying to get past in the kill zone.
When any of the bandits are within 70 feet of a melee opponent, they shoot their arrow, and pull out their alchemists fire. On their next attack round they use the boxes in the upper area to move into throwing position and throw the Alchemist fire at the heavily armored target.
This encounter slaughtered my PCs when they came to fight it.
We had 4 level 6 characters (Heavy armored fighter with a tower-shield, Evocation wizard--went unconscious before his blind wore off--, Cleric--was focused down after the ranger, and a ranger who stood his ground trying to kill the bandits from ground level but who was standing out in the open over the unconscious wizard to "protect him".)
The tactics of my PCs were questionable, and that got them defeated and imprisoned. My question is that if the PCs are invading an area where the enemies are militarized, and ready for a fight wouldn't the enemies try to position themselves and use tactics that would help them survive?
The tactics of my PCs were questionable, and that got them defeated and imprisoned. My question is that if the PCs are invading an area where the enemies are militarized, and ready for a fight wouldn't the enemies try to position themselves and use tactics that would help them survive?
Yes?
There a reason they shouldn't?
A game that you can't lose becomes boring pretty quickly. Hopefully they learn not to go face-first through every encounter in the future. You already hooked them up by imprisoning them rather than murdering them.
And it will just feel that much sweeter when they get loose and take their revenge. My personal rule is as long is there is *a way* for them to win, it's all good. It's up to them to find it the solution; it's my job to make them work for it. ;)
Some things to consider here:
This was a pre-designed trap and ambush. As such it should have been considered to be more difficult than just the total of the NPCs/monsters and their stuff combined. The fact that the PCs were likely to be caught flat-footed and unable to retreat should have factored into how difficult the encounter was expected to be.
Did the PCs quite literally walk into this trap, stand around un-buffed and un-readied while someone walked up and took the key? If so, has this party encountered less lethal setups of this sort in the past to prepare them for this sort of eventuality?
At least you didn't kill them outright and only captured them, although I have played with gamers who would literally rather have to roll up a new character than deal with being captured and losing all their stuff.
The main question here is, what was your intention as the GM here? This setup clearly had the potential to wipe out your PC party. If it wasn't your intention to do so, did you leave the PCs any way out of this once the fireworks (literally) went off? Because as a player if this happened to me (assuming I fell for the bait, which I suspect I would not have) I would feel like the GM was literally setting us up for capture for some reason. Was that your goal?
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So, how this encounter works is the PCs walk into a large open space, the door at the end is closed, and there is a brassiere hanging from a pole with a key under it.
LOL!
Do you mean a brazier? A brassiere is a bra.
One holds burning coals, which would make sense with your pyro trap. The other holds globes of burning love (which might also generate some pyrotechnics under the right circumstances).
It's a pretty brutal trap but you didn't kill the players off so I'm thinking it's good for the long run. This way the players are a bit wiser about their tactics.
The fighter was defeated last because the bandits all had a single potion of alchemists fire that they could throw. After that it was all about the bandits who run faster who can surround and just peg him until he goes down. A fight between a melee tank who moves 20ft, and ranged enemies who move 30ft is always pretty much a losing battle.
The doors opened into the room, they could have used the doors as cover.
The portcullis can be lifted, so they could technically escape the room.
The encounter was EL5, the +1 to push it to EL6 was the advantageous terrain bonus for the monsters.
Instead of the pyrotechnics trap I could have included a level 3 wizard (CR 2) who casts the spell from cover on a surprise round who would have been able to continue acting beyond that. The trap is flat out nicer to them.
The fighter fell last because of their tactics: Target the least armored looking person first. Oh, a guy in cloth, oh, a guy in a chain shirt looking thing, oh a guy in chain-mail, oh a guy in full-plate with a tower-shield: Probably can't kill the guy in full-plate--Oh, ha, he is stuck in the web-trap that one of the wizards who work for our boss made, well it is going to be a while, kill the weakest!--
Seriously, if the enemies all attack the most heavily armored person then they are not doing their jobs.
I was even using the 11hp instead of the recommended 17: These guys were sort of gimped.
There are a couple missing pieces of information here (how large exactly is the room, did the bandits explicitly know the PCs were coming) but off hand my initial concerns would be that the bandits got a surprise round which they used to both move and attack, that they used frighteningly murderous tactics, and that the party did not have a chance to respond.
Based off of what you said - mostly the bandits reacting to the trap going off and popping out of full cover - I'd have played this straight. No surprise round, go right into initiative. The bandits can't see the party until they pop out of their hiding spots, and vice versa. That gives the casters some chance of surviving the opening volley if they win initiative.
You mention the bandits popping up then shooting. They did that in the surprise round? I'm pretty sure you get a move or standard, but not both. Standing up is, as far as I know, a move action. That jumps out and nags at me a bit here.
Focusing all arrow fire on one target at a time is ruthless and effective. It is also kind of shockingly logical and well thought out for a group of bandits with average intelligence and below average wisdom. Remember, this is all happening in an extremely short span of time - a round is only six seconds. While a ruthless and intelligent opponent might have the situational awareness to focus down each target like that in concert as a group, the average person probably wouldn't. As it stood you were pretty much saying that unless you had a remarkable run of bad luck on the dice rolls (12 attacks against an AC I would not expect to be over 17) someone was going to go down outright. By concentrating all your attacks on one person you really put them in a hard position.
I'm curious about how the attackers were able to ID each target at what you describe as relatively long range. Were they making perception checks to see who had leather armor and who had cloth on at long distance? Were they taking distance penalties? Without knowing the exact distance involved here I can't comment that much, but those bandits you posted have negative perception mods. While the guy in the shinning full plate and with a huge shield probably stands out, I'm not as sure that at something like fifty or a hundred feet they should make a determination about who is a 'clothy' without having to put some effort into it.
I'm also curious about the party marching order. Were they lined up (e.g. providing soft cover) or spread out to get picked off one at a time?
I don't think the encounter itself is unfair (though large numbers mean a lot more before level 7-8 than they do after) but some of how it was run definitely does raise a few questions.
I would personally recommend stripping the alchemist's fire from a few of the bandits. 9 Vials of Alchemist's fire is a straight death sentence for that Heavily armored homie. Also, while it is logical and expected that these militarized bandits are using effective tactics, they're not soldiers, and I highly doubt there's a commander-like figure shouting orders in this encounter, so it's very possible that a few of the chumps decide they have the gumption to bring down the fighter in melee. It never hurts to let the smashy character actually smash things.
Couple things would bother me about this encounter as a player. The trap going off when anyone approached within ten feet, that fails a logic test, that key is the actual key to the door and presumably needs to be used occasionally.
The Scene itself should have given the characters a perception check, any martially trained character might have have saw a perfect ambush site. I don't think you should assume your fighter knows anything about tactics, that's why you give them a chance to feel the encounter. The hairs on the back go someone's neck should have stood up when they passed under the portcullis.
As GM, you may also have at least each nearby group of bandits make rolls to determine the least armored foe, someone may have gotten it wrong, that's a lot attacks on a single character.
The thing to remember here is that as DM you are privy to knowledge low level bandits are not going to be aware of, and resources that they may not be able to bring to bare as often as would be logical. You know exactly how to pick apart a party that these bandits have never even met. Second level bandits using these kind of tactics, plus having access to magic traps, and being prepped with alchemist fire is not only unlikely, but really expensive. 6 doses of alchemist fire and a casting of pyrotechnics every time someone wanders in? That is some mighty pricey tactics, not to mention how does a second level bandit know how to set up a magical blinding effect, prioritize the casters, and prepare touch attacks for the high AC's.
Now if you come back and tell me these bandits have a backer with an advanced knowledge of tactics and are protecting something worth that expense...fair enough, but if this is just a trap set up to snare unwary I think you have gone a little overboard.
I don't think the encounter itself is unfair (though large numbers mean a lot more before level 7-8 than they do after) but some of how it was run definitely does raise a few questions.
I agree with Peter Stewart. It does sound like the players might have used poor tactics, but there are a few things from the descriptions that get my "Metagaming DM" sense tingling.
Questions;
- How long had the bandits been waiting for the trap to be sprung?
- Were they aware the pc's were coming?
- What kind of bandits? (rebels with a cause, evil cultists, take peoples stuff,...) Military style training/tactics is easier to explain with some.
- You seem to be assuming the bandits will always get a surprise round. Do the players get any sort of roll (perception?) to avoid it?
- 20gp for an Alchemist Fire is a lot of gold to npc's of 2nd level.
- "A fight between a melee tank who moves 20ft, and ranged enemies who move 30ft is always pretty much a losing battle." Weren't there corners and other such places where the single slower tank could negate their speed/ranged attack advantage?
This really hit's home because I have a DM who is smart and a student of history/tactics. So I'm overly sensitive to this sort of DM behavior. He plays an old school DM vs PLAYERS (not world/npcs vs characters) style of DMing and his monsters use tactics and coordination worthy of military special forces. That get's old fast.
- 20gp for an Alchemist Fire is a lot of gold to npc's of 2nd level.
20gp out of 390 is actually quite reasonable if you count all the bandit's gear they have about 28gp left.
8gp for a monk's kit takes care of bare necessities which might not even be necessary if they have a patron.
And given that it's not out of the question for them to be facing an opponent where such a tactic might be the difference between death and profit 20gp is well worth the investment.
And really none of this strikes me as "military" tactics.
More like, "Let's put this obvious trap and ambush point here and see who walks right into it."
That's my interpretation of thigns given so far. Further information can of course change this opinion.
I suppose the truth is in how many ways you've allowed players to avoid or beat this scenario.
How many different way was it was possible for the players to win?
If they were really given no hints or descriptions about this place as they entered or had only one possible way to win, then maybe it is over the top.
Taku, to me the most important bit of information that I asked for earlier is still missing.
What were your intentions as a GM with this encounter? What goal did this encounter have for the party? How did this encounter fit into the overall story?
Other questions, some of which others have already asked:
Was it your intention for the party to be surprised?
Are you certain you applied the Surprise rules properly? Did the PCs get any sort of perception check to notice the ambush? It seems that there were quite a few bandits in very close proximity, did any of them cough, sneeze or put their hand on a stick while preparing for attack?
Did you apply all applicable ranged attack penalties for the ambushers? If they were shooting at the squishies, and the squishies hid behind the tank, did you apply cover penalties?
It sounds like the PCs must have applied extremely poor tactics themselves. I have not seen any indication that in the midst of a hail of arrows any caster used even the simplest tactic to reduce the effectiveness of ranged attacks, such as obscuring mist.
Which brings me to what I, as a GM would consider to be the most important take-away from this experience. You have provided a lot of detail about the ambush, the tactics you had the ambushers apply and the effectiveness of those tactics. I have not seen any information about the general tactical awareness and experience of the PC party. While I absolutely agree that it is the GM's job to have NPCs utilize effective tactics, I feel it is also the GM's job to have encounters tailored to the skill level of the party. Based on the result of this encounter, it appears to me that the tactical effectiveness of the ambush was beyond the current ability of the party to deal with.
Frequently, in a situation like this, if I see that my encounter, as planned, is going to totally wipe out the party because the party is simply overmatched from a game experience and skill perspective, I will adjust the NPC's or monster's tactics to be at a comparable level so that the PCs at least have a chance to win. In this case I might have had a couple of the bandits get over-confident and leap out to engage the tank before the squishies were all dead. My goal as GM at that point would be BOTH to give the party a very difficult encounter that would teach them some important tactical lessons, but ALSO to give them a chance to succeed.
I suppose now I'll be accused of being an "easy" GM. But that's what I'd have done.
Sounds like you designed a CR-legit encounter specifically to whip your PC's butts and you succeeded. Have a see-gar and congratulate yourself on a job well done.
Heh, Qorin, you went right to the point of what I was trying to get to in my questions. :)
This had been the first encounter of the nature that the PCs ran into. The area was big, but not so big that ranged penalties came into play unless they were next to a wall giving themselves cover VS 1 side and a -2 for the other side to hit. The PCs, before entering the room, had just finished fighting a mixed encounter of 16 CR1/3 monsters of mixed composition. Each 4-enemy group per PC had 1 adept, 2-experts, and 1-warrior, and the area was about 20ft wide (so enough for the warriors to form a wall).
The tactics of this group was push up to them behind the warriors, when a warrior goes down cure-light-wounds him, and the experts try to target the people behind the front line when possible. This area and the one in question, connect from a vantage point.
The doors were closed, so they were opened--and opened loudly I'll say: The fighter said he opened them like Aragorn from LotR, so slamming them open--.
From what I can find in the errata--or at least in d20pfsrd--moving from squatting behind cover to not squatting behind cover so you can attack is not an action so I assume is is considered part of the standard.
The NPCs in this encounter all made stealth checks, they were all around 80ft away due to vertical and horizontal space. While the fighter's stealth skill is 2, the perception check of the PCs was at -7 to -9 based on the distance.
They did not detect the warriors. They are all also experienced players who saw the portcullis, the walls, .etc.
The Cleric is the group was attempting to "roleplay" his character who had decided he wanted to be the super-loner cleric who didn't care about his allies and saved his channel energy for himself. Everyone at the table was yelling "Channel energy" at him when the wizard was unconscious, but he just decided to CLW the ranger because of some grudge he decided the divine and arcane casters have with one another.
The PC decisions were bad.
Valandil Ancalime it isn't like they were fighting Hannibal. The tactics were warriors were given by their warlord boss made sense.
The Alchemist Fire was there because in order to even hit the super-tank they would have to roll crit-threat.
The wall goes around the room, so it is impossible to trap the warriors unless you move the boxes or something.
They also only have 20 shots each, he could have just turtled behind his tower-shield with his back to a wall, but he didn't so he ended up just having the remaining warriors just shooting at him while surrounding him When he got to close someone would just throw their Alchy fire at him and then run more.
The ramparts of this wall was 10ft wide and has crates on it. The bandits used this to their advantage, but for some reason he never did. I honestly expected him to push/pull boxes into a formation with the wall that would prevent him from even being targeted. He also ignored my advice at creation and every time they were in an area to buy stuff to buy a ranged weapon.
How does the difficulty level of this encounter compare to previous ones? If it's much harder than the norm then I'd have wanted to build up to something like, this rather than going from 0-100 so to speak.
Whenever I see this name I think of:
http://youtu.be/e4NiD4TjFh8It doesn't seem like you're bandits acted like bandits
They are called "bandits" as their description d20pfsrd, but they are just level 2 warriors who are followers of Big-Bad and his generals.
*How was the trap triggered from 10 ft away without a pressure plate[.]
They never detected the Alarm spell, which was cast into a point above the Brazier to give it a 10-foot range at ground level.
*Why was there a convoluted trap,
*Why are bandits using alchemists fire a rare and expensive substance that may burn away any banditable items.
Big-Bad has a level 7 wizard who focuses on creating traps and alchemy.
*Why did the bandits attack right away without the money or death line? Remember they are bandits, who want the most money without the least amount of fuss.
They are not "actually" bandits, they are just being used as level 2 defenders.
*Why are cr 1/2 bandits acting like trained Professionals/Commandos?
When the grizzled guy who has been training you for months says, "If you don't want to die, then try this" and then his cloth wearing buddy who tells you where to stand and about the traps in the area say, "Yup, that is pretty effective, by the way when people are coming to kill you hide until there is a bright flash, and then do what the grizzled guy said."
*Since this seems like a planned ambush, why are their no signs of previous ambushes, flesh burned into the ground or ash lining the walls of the ambush site?
Yes, when I kill people I totally leave their corpses there forever to rot.
*How long were the bandits waiting there?
Well, they did hear something along the lines of, "AH! Oh, GOD FIRE! Everyone is dead! EVERYONE IS DE--!" At this point they probably went into hiding at their posts. Then there was the sound doors smashing open, and a bright flash of light--their cue to ambush--and two people screaming, one of which wasn't wearing armor.
How[ . . . ]difficulty[ . . . ]this encounter [vs last ones]?
It wasn't that much harder, in fact it would be easier. The previous one was essentially wrapped up with a single fireball, and the only survivor having like 2hp left had enough time to scream and panic before eating an arrow.
The PCs have encountered traps before, vicious compound traps that hit whoever falls for them with essentially the entire trap encounter.
They have encountered trap encounters where there are archers at the end of a hallway and pit-traps in front of them.
This is not the first time they have encountered a trapped Brazier with a key under it.
They have ran into pretty much all of the pieces of the encounter. Their general dysfunctional nature is ultimately what did them in, and I am curious as to what they are going to do in regards to the cleric who could have easily turned this fight around. 11hp is far below the average of a 6d6 fireball. Perhaps the Wizard will give himself a slave collar and leash, and have the ranger "pull" him around so it looks like he is just a non-threat prisoner or something. Who knows.
But--I will say that two of the players (ranger/Wizard) were extremely angry at the dysfunctional character (cleric) for not casting any sort of fog spell, channeling positive energy, or really doing anything useful.
There comes a point when the group should be working together. If they are not then it doesn't matter who or what they are: They are going to die. I purposefully build most encounters to be balanced around individual characters, but doors AND a portcullis means "battle you cannot run from". This has been a theme: When they go into a room with closed doors and a portcullis obviously there they should prepare to go in. Without fault it has been a tough battle.
Big-bad is going to attempt to get them to join his cause, and when this fails he is going to pit them against one another in an arena. On the sides is the dungeon they had the option to sneak into to try and do a stealthy attack on big-bad's fortress. Or--they can chose to fight each other, and the last one standing leaves the fortress alive or joins Big-Bad's army.
It is straight PC vs PC, or the great escape: Their choice. Note: They can just jump the 20ft into the small mote around the arena and be in the dungeon, so it isn't forced PC vs PC, but if someone really wanted to kill everyone then it could be done, albeit he'd have to balance to NPC gold of his level so he'd fit on epic encounters.
I was going to post a response but that seems to ahve covered it.
Sounds perfectly legitimate to me. It was a toughie that better tactics could have defeated (what on earth was the fighter doing chasing around, why did he not have a missile weapon!).
I really hate the sort of encounter that you just wander through where the challenge is so easily overcome that you are still waiting for the main event. Winning a tight encounter is great, you get a sense of achievement missing from a cakewalk. However, to have that tight encounter there has to be a real chance that you'll lose, and sometimes that's exactly what happens.