How well would this character work? I Am building it with PFS in mind...
Angel Kin Aasimar
18, 16, 12, 07, 12, 12
Scion of Humanity
Monk > Master of Many Styles + Qinggong
Ninja
1] Monk 1) IUS, Stunning Fist, Boar Style, Unarmed 1d6 (F)Two Weapon Fighting
2] Monk 2) Evasion, Boar Ferocity
3] Ninja 1) SA1d6, (F)Sap Adept
4] Ninja 2) Ki Pool, [Weapon Training] Weapon Focus
5] Ninja 3) No Trace +1, SA2d6, (F)Dazzling Display
6] Ninja 4) Uncanny Dodge, [combat trick] Shatter Defenses
7] Ninja 5) SA 3d6, (F)Sap Master
8] Ninja 6) Light Steps, No Trace +2, Vanishing Trick
9] Monk 3) Fast Movement +10, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, (F)Double Slice
10] Monk 4) Ki Pool (magic), Scorching Ray, AC (+1), Unarmed 1d8
11] Monk 5) Barkskin, Purity of Body, (F)?
12] Monk 6) (Style Feat?), Fast Movement +20
I have an open feat (at 11th), an open bonus style feat (at 12th), and have not selected traits.
I initially started with a level of unarmed fighter (for boar style), then 2 levels of monk (for boar ferocity/shred), then 9 levels of rogue (to focus on sneak attack dice). I tweaked, rebuilt, tweaked, and ended up here. Noticing that I could dump boar shred, as it was nearly useless for this build, allowed me to dump the level of unarmed fighter. This removed a waste of doubling up on IUS from both Unarmed Fighter and Monk. I then decided to add in qinggong and get some cool ki powers, which naturally lead to swapping rogue into ninja for more ki. This removed the doubling up on Evasion from Rogue and Monk, but gave me something in exchange I will never use. Oh Well.
How could I do this better? I don't care if it is a complete rebuild; wanting to combine Boar Style with Sap Master is the primary spark for this build. Do you have a better way (maybe some claws and Feral Combat Training - another path I was considering)?
It can be done - though it seems like a weak option to me. Situational mediocre bleed damage and a free action Intimidate check if you hot with both hands... Enforcer does it better as it gives you a free action Intimidate every time you hit and it also frees the style feasts for some better ones like Crane or Snake.
Enforcer could be added to this build, if accuracy proves too low to reliably get the intimidate check...
Knockout Artist would be a good feat for this build.
I also don't think you need double slice. The monks UAS states he gets full STR with no offhand.
I have one question there:
How does nonlethal damage, which is the point of sap adept and sap master when i remember correctly, cause bleed damage?
It might be possible by RAW, i did not look into it.
It´s just something that would make me as a GM give this character a hard look-over.
For the true martial expert, knowing which wounds can cause a fatal bleeding and which won't is standard issue.
On the topic, Double Slice is bad even if IUS does not take full Str on offhand. If you cannot qualify for Two-Weapon Rend ignore it.
karossii wrote: How well would this character work? I Am building it with PFS in mind...
Angel Kin Aasimar
18, 16, 12, 07, 12, 12
Assuming you've ordered those stats in STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA order, I see major problems: First, your CON is a little tender for a d8 class with the (usually) worst out-of-box AC in the game....speaking of which, your wisdom is only a 12; and it doesn't look like you plan on advancing it -- meaning a lame bonus to AC and being starved for Ki points.
What's happened here is that you're paying an inordinate cost to raise DEX for actual TWF in a monk, subjecting him to MAD physical stats in a race choice which doesn't pump the right abilities. You're paying 10 build points for the 16 DEX, which, plus the two for the WIS:12, would otherwise buy DEX:14 and WIS:15 in a build not needing TWF. The angel gives you a CHA bump...which is sitting there all myeh as a 12 (where it's basing Intimidate, but otherwise represents 4 build points put toward a stat seldom used by a monk).
The angel's attribute bumps are stridently unhelpful in providing this character with better-than-barbarian AC. But take a look at Garuda-blooded; they DEX/WIS bump, which is exactly what a monk needs in meatgrinder PFS upper-tier melee -- the 12 build points you're spending now for the 16/12 DEX/WIS in the angel will instead get you 16/17 in the Garuda. Advance WIS, buy the appropriate headband, and you're AC+4, Ki+4 and Will+4 over the belt-buying angel. That's a pretty good deal in exchange for dropping the angel's STR:18 to a 16 (or skipping the whole Intimidate thing and relegating CHA to a dump stat). Quote: Scion of Humanity I don't note anything on the build below which required being racially human, so will assume it's a flavor choice. But be aware that an Aasimar's character level-based Daylight is one the most powerful "FY!"s you can deliver to darkness-based encounters. Quote: 1] Monk 1) IUS, Stunning Fist, Boar Style, Unarmed 1d6 (F)Two Weapon Fighting There used to be an acrimonious debate as to whether you could TWF and FOB....unsure what the current rules status is. Quote: 2] Monk 2) Evasion, Boar Ferocity
3] Ninja 1) SA1d6, (F)Sap Adept
4] Ninja 2) Ki Pool, [Weapon Training] Weapon Focus
5] Ninja 3) No Trace +1, SA2d6, (F)Dazzling Display
6] Ninja 4) Uncanny Dodge, [combat trick] Shatter Defenses
I may be missing something, as it escapes me how you're avoiding the BAB6 requirement for Shatter Defenses. Quote: Ninja 5) SA 3d6, (F)Sap Master
8] Ninja 6) Light Steps, No Trace +2, Vanishing Trick
9] Monk 3) Fast Movement +10, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, (F)Double Slice
With your tepid (for a monk) will-save, you might want Still Mind earlier. Quote: 10] Monk 4) Ki Pool (magic), Scorching Ray, AC (+1), Unarmed 1d8 ...as well as Scorching Ray at a level where it isn't immediately running into fire resistance half the time. (Not that you'll have the Ki to get it off). Quote: 11] Monk 5) Barkskin, Purity of Body, (F)?
12] Monk 6) (Style Feat?), Fast Movement +20
IMO this build will do a lot of damage to compromised mooks, but get his head ripped off by the first boss he runs into Tier 8-9, if not considerably earlier. The steady falling behind on AC, hitpoints, Ki and even saves relative to other monk builds is becoming acute by then (and monk as a class is routinely disparaged on the forums as being suboptimal right from the start). Even at lower levels you'll quickly become annoyed by encounters designed to thwart easy acquisition of full-attacks (meaning the character's defensive weaknesses remain while he's denied his offensive strengths).
= = = =
Try a Garuda with:
STR:14
DEX+16 (or 17)
CON:12
INT:14
WIS+17 (or 16)
CHA:07
Take the trait Threatening Defender and feats Combat Expertise and Monk[Dodge] at 1st level for a Touch AC of 19. Your attack-bonus Flurrying off the STR:14 is just as good as TWF/FoB off an 18, and you absorb much less punishment.
Goal: sky-high AC and lots of Ki.
I assume he'd be using brawling armor and a darkwood shield for AC. Snake and/or dragon might make better style choices though, with enforcer for the shakening.
Hayato Ken wrote: I have one question there:
How does nonlethal damage, which is the point of sap adept and sap master when i remember correctly, cause bleed damage?
It might be possible by RAW, i did not look into it.
It´s just something that would make me as a GM give this character a hard look-over.
Having just built a mid-boss for a home S&S game built in this vein (Strangler + Sneak Attack for a "hugs you to death convict" guy), I've looked into this and found nothing that states bleed wouldn't happen otherwise.
Bleed says nothing about what types of damage cause it, though it would be lethal damage. The rogue talnet in question just causes bleed. I think it is injury poison that can't be distributed by nonlethal damage, though I may very well be wrong about that.
One point that came up a few times a few ways; flurrying stuff. This monk gave up FOB for MoMS. That is why the TWF feats are taken.
But thinking about it, I am not blending more than one style, so MOMS is not necessary; it DOES let me ignore prerequisites for the style feats, but I think it may be smarter to dump TWF, dump MoMS, and rely on FOB for multiple hits. It would take a few more levels to grab boar style and ferocity; but it would probably be more effective in the long run.
I was hoping to begin play with the boar style bleed; it seems to me that at lower levels 2d6/round would be huge (and not so huge in mid to high levels). But I am not looking to only play at low levels, so sometimes adjustment/sacrifices must be made.
As to non-lethal + bleed; it does seem odd, I know. Mechanically nothing prevents non-lethal damage from causing status effects, including a lethal bleed. I can somewhat justify the flavor through all kinds of explanations, but in the end, to be honest; that is a mechanical thing I have wanted to combine in some way for a while now, specifically because of the contradictory dichotomy of damage. It is one of the cornerstones of my desire to build this character... "I deal N nonlethal damage to my enemy. Oh, yes - he also takes 2d6 bleed damage...and yeah, that is lethal."
On to the other weaknesses of my character above - most can be managed by dumping some of that dex and pumping wis. I may also take fewer ninja levels and more monk levels. I was for a while under the mistaken impression I got both CHA and WIS to Ki pool, via both monk and ninja, but I saw under a PRC or archetype I was recently reading that you only ever apply one stat modifier to the pool. So I would dump CHA down to 10 and get a couple extra points there too.
I had looked into Garuda initially... but two key things about angelkin one is Alter Self. I can be large for a short bit each day, pumping my STR even more, gaining reach, etc. Second is that I do want a decent STR, and angelkin is the only Aasimar to get +STR.
I could look at another race entirely, grabbing STR and WIS both; but I love that Aasimar is the only race with two +2 stats, and no -2 stat. That allows me to dump a stat of my choice, and get 2 extra build points, if I choose.
Thanks for all the input so far, I will be revising the build and reposting it shortly (on the road right now, so not as easy to access everything, or I would post it right here right now).
Oh, and as to Scion of Humanity; all that is given up for that is the celestial language. I had thought I might take a human trait, still might (traits are kindof up the air right now), so... I don't see losing one language for the possibility (and for the RP reasons, ability to appear human without a disguise check) as a great loss.
You probably want to check this build for ideas.
It is a Dex based unarmed fighter. It starts with 2 lvls of MoMS monk for the Snake Style and Mantis or Boar Style. It continues with Brawler and takes the TWF feats. It is a Dex build done right, very close, if not exactly, in what you have in mind.
I typed this up offline, so hadn't seen your reply XMorsX - will go ahead and put this here, then go check out that build. Would still appreciate input/feedback!
Angelkin Aasimar
Scion of Humanity
Alter Self 1/day
Resist Acid, Cold, Electricity 5
Stats:
19, 10, 14, 7, 16, 9 (all bumps to STR)
Levels:
1) monk (qinggong) 1
2) fighter (unarmed) 1
3) ninja 1
4) ninja 2
5) ninja 3
6) ninja 4
7) ninja 5
8) fighter 2
9) monk 2
10) monk 3
11) monk 4
12) monk 5
Feats:
1) dodge (mnk1), enforcer (lvl1)
2) boar style (ftr 1)
3) sap adept (lvl3)
4) weapon focus: unarmed (ninja trick, weapon training)
5) dazzling display (lvl5)
6) shatter defenses (ninja trick, combat trick)
7) sap master (lvl7)
8) intimidating prowess (ftr2)
9) deflect arrows (mnk2), boar shred (lvl9)
11) knockout artist (lvl11)
12) mobility (mnk6)
Class Features:
1) Flurry of Blows (-1/-1), Stunning Fist (1/day), IUS (1d6), AC Bonus (WIS), Monk Vows (silence, truth)
2) Unarmed Style (Boar Style without prereqs)
3) Poison Use, Sneak Attack (1d6)
4) Ki Pool
5) No Trace (+1), SA (2d6)
6) Uncanny Dodge
7) SA (3d6)
8) Harsh Training
9) Evasion
10) Fast Movement (+10), Maneuver Training, Still Mind
11) Ki Pool, Barkskin, IUS (1d8), AC Bonus (WIS +1)
12) Scorching Ray, Purity of Body
So, at first level, assuming no equipment of any import, I will have AB 0, AC 14, Fort 4, Ref 2, Will 3, 11 HP, Unarmed Stirke +4@d6+4, Flurry +3@d6+4/+3@d6+4. Second bumps up my AB by 1, Fort by 2, and HP by 8, and I will add +2d6 bleed to a flurry (if both hit). At third, I gain +2 Ref, 7HP, and sneak attack; 1d6+2 extra damage on any nonlethal SA.
At 6th level, I am now looking at an AB of 4 (UAS at +9@d6+5, FOB at +8@d6+5/+8@d6+5, 2d6 bleed if both hit, and 2d6+4 with each SA. 47HP, Fort 7, Ref 6, Will 4, AC 14. Again, that is without any equipment... I would expect to have an AoMF and a Darkwood Heavy Shield by this point; both at least +1, possibly some extra other enchantments.
By 9th level, it will be up to 69HP, Fort 9, Ref 7, Will 5, AC 14, and an AB of 6/1 (UAS at +11@d6+5/+6@d6+5, FOB at +11@d6+5/+11@d6+5/+6@d6+5; 2d6 bleed if 2+ hit, and +6d6+12 with each SA). I would expect to have more enhancements on my AoMF and shield by now, plus a stat boosting item or two.
At 12th level, I am up to 90HP, Fort 12, Ref 10, Will 8, AC 15, and an AB of 8/3 (UAS at +14@d8+6/+9@d8+6, FOB at +15@d8+6/+15@d8+6/+10@d8+6; 2d6 bleed if 2+ hit, and +6d6+18 with each SA). I would almost always have barkskin on for an extra +2 AC, plus finally gain 10' of fast movement @ 10th. Scorching Ray is there if it is determined to be useful. I may swap it for another ability instead. I would assume further enhanced AoMF and Shield, plus other magic items as suitable.
Also not factored in is the 1/dat alter self to grow large for a time. It seems like this is going to be weak, by optimization standards, but I think it will be playable and could be fun... still have two traits to pick, plus equipment to decide on.
And, I am still open to suggestions!
You cant have a shield and use FoB.
So you won't survive the first 4-5 tier game you play in, unless people are ok with you never being in reach of the enemies.
You will spend the majority of your games on the ground waiting for the healer to burn the CLW wand you bought.
The major problem I see is that you have a Str based monk (so low AC) without supporting your defence in any way (Crane Style, Offensive Defence) other than Enforcer, which is not generally enough.
The above build I linked used Dexterity as his main stat and made up for the lost damage with 2 lvls of MoMS monk and by combining Snake style + Boar Style. Because he lost flurry, he switched to Brawler and used TWF for more attacks. He can also use a shield as he does not have flurry BUT he does have IUS from the monk lvls, which allow him to TWF with one hand.
TGMaxMaxer wrote: You cant have a shield and use FoB.
So you won't survive the first 4-5 tier game you play in, unless people are ok with you never being in reach of the enemies.
You will spend the majority of your games on the ground waiting for the healer to burn the CLW wand you bought.
Where in the world do you get that? A monk can be holding a shield and a wand and FOB. There is nothing in FOB that specifies what you can (or can't) hold/wield in your hands while using FOB, only what weapons you can use for the purpose of the flurry - which includes unarmed strike. An unarmed strike is in no way related to the hands (unless you CHOOSE to use your fists). A monk (or indeed, any character) can use unarmed strikes with both hand full (or tied behind their backs, etc.)...
XMorsX wrote: The major problem I see is that you have a Str based monk (so low AC) without supporting your defence in any way (Crane Style, Offensive Defence) other than Enforcer, which is not generally enough.
The above build I linked used Dexterity as his main stat and made up for the lost damage with 2 lvls of MoMS monk and by combining Snake style + Boar Style. Because he lost flurry, he switched to Brawler and used TWF for more attacks. He can also use a shield as he does not have flurry BUT he does have IUS from the monk lvls, which allow him to TWF with one hand.
I am looking into that as a possible alternative. But again with the shield/flurry thing. I just reread FOB to be sure, and I can find NOTHING which restricts flurry with shields (aside from you can't use the shield as a weapon in the flurry, of course). Please tell me where this idea is coming from?
[edit] Two things I noticed;
First, shields. I still see no reason a monk cannot flurry while using a shield (again, using it a a shield, he can't attack with it, of course). But I do see something I had forgotten; I would lose WIS to AC if I carry a shield. So until I can afford a +3 or better darkwood heavy shield, it is not worth it. And as PFS ends at 12th level, that means probably never worth it.
Second; regarding the other build; I do not see a way to pull it off with 5 levels of rogue or ninja, to get sap master. The whole point of the build is to combine sap master and boar style...
'When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.'
Well, if you want to combine sap master and boar style then you have to follow a different route. Make a Dex based fighter. 4 lvl in Drunken Mster/MoMS/Qinggong monk, so that you take Snake Style, Snake Fang and Boar Style, have drunken ki and ki based on wisdom. Continue with Scout Ninja, your first trick should be Vanishing Trick, your second weapon Training. Take Sap adept and Sap master, as well as Knockout Artist for dealing damage. For more damage you can follow then the TWF route. A really good (and cool) addition would be Dastardly Finish. Stun them in an AoO from Crane Style and coup de grace them in your round. A good start could be Monk2/Ninja1/Monk2/NinjaX.
Actually the feats will not look very different than the build you posted. It will have higher AC though, and most of the lost damage will be made up by the number of attacks that you will be dishing with Snake Fang and later with TWF. The more attacks, the more chances for Boar style to shine too. Cha is dumped so don't go for Enforcer. Piranha strike should take a priority though, as well as Big Game Hunter.
My thought is that boar style needs more attacks to shine, and full-attacking is not always possible. So we combine it with Snake Style. You want sap master, so it is only logical to continue with Ninja. You can round up this build with 3 lvls of Weaponmaster Fighter for the weapon training combined with a glove of dueling.
XMorsX wrote: 'When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.' Well Crap. There it is right there. Why is it not repeated in FOB, it is repeated for the AC Bonus. Oh well... shield is out then.
Quote: Well, if you want to combine sap master and boar style then you have to follow a different route. Make a Dex based fighter. 4 lvl in Drunken Mster/MoMS/Qinggong monk, so that you take Snake Style, Snake Fang and Boar Style, have drunken ki and ki based on wisdom. Continue with Scout Ninja, your first trick should be Vanishing Trick, your second weapon Training. Take Sap adept and Sap master, as well as Knockout Artist for dealing damage. For more damage you can follow then the TWF route. A really good (and cool) addition would be Dastardly Finish. Stun them in an AoO from Crane Style and coup de grace them in your round. A good start could be Monk2/Ninja1/Monk2/NinjaX.
Actually the feats will not look very different than the build you posted. It will have higher AC though, and most of the lost damage will be made up by the number of attacks that you will be dishing with Snake Fang and later with TWF. The more attacks, the more chances for Boar style to shine too. Cha is dumped so don't go for Enforcer. Piranha strike should take a priority though, as well as Big Game Hunter.
My thought is that boar style needs more attacks to shine, and full-attacking is not always possible. So we combine it with Snake Style. You want sap master, so it is only logical to continue with Ninja. You can round up this build with 3 lvls of Weaponmaster Fighter for the weapon training combined with a glove of dueling.
Thanks for the help! So for PFS level 12 limit, it would be Monk 4, Ninja 5, Fighter 3... taken as mnk2, ninja, mnk2, ninja4, ftr3. I would switch from angelkin - no longer need strength or alter self (for more strength) - though alter self to get reach could help with AoOs...hmm. But the Garuda would be a good fit.
I do like drunken master too...though I could not reasonably play a drunken master with a vow of truth or a vow of silence, lol... just not something I can wrap my mind around as a character. Of course, that is only 2 ki points, and being a drunken master almost makes up for that loss, with 1 extra ki/day from drinking...
Do not forget fast drinker. Needs 18 con, so you should start with at least 15 con and buy a belt of mighty constitution +2 asap.
Also no vows for you, drunken master replaces still mind. Drunken ki is better anyway.
I could also just make sure I take a drink every hour or so, to have the extra ki. Not sure I would need to drink in battle; I guess it depends on how much ki I spend and on what...
A fast draft. I use Human. I would really want to do it with Aasimar, but I really need the bonus feat to make the build work, unless you drop boar style, but we don't want that, right?):
1 Monk Weapon Finesse, Snake Style, Snake Fang
2 Monk Boar Style
3 Ninja Sap Adept
4 Monk
5 Monk Fast Drinker, Qinggong: Barkskin
6 Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
7 Ninja Combat Reflexes
8 Ninja Trick: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strikes)
9 Ninja Sap Master
10 Fighter Knockout Artist
11 Fighter Big Game Hunter, Piranha Strikes
12 Fighter
Also, just something to consider: neither monk nor ninja are proficient with a sap. It's a martial weapon. Yet another reason for at least one fighter level.
ubiquitous wrote: Also, just something to consider: neither monk nor ninja are proficient with a sap. It's a martial weapon. Yet another reason for at least one fighter level. Sap Adept and Sap Master don't actually use a sap, just any non-lethal bludgeoning melee attack; which includes unarmed strikes.
karossii wrote: ubiquitous wrote: Also, just something to consider: neither monk nor ninja are proficient with a sap. It's a martial weapon. Yet another reason for at least one fighter level. Sap Adept and Sap Master don't actually use a sap, just any non-lethal bludgeoning melee attack; which includes unarmed strikes. Ah, true. Damn, I was hoping someone would point out a sneaky way for a ninja to get proficiency with one without spending any feats.
XMorsX wrote: A fast draft. I use Human. I would really want to do it with Aasimar, but I really need the bonus feat to make the build work, unless you drop boar style, but we don't want that, right?):
1 Monk Weapon Finesse, Snake Style, Snake Fang
2 Monk Boar Style
3 Ninja Sap Adept
4 Monk
5 Monk Fast Drinker, Qinggong: Barkskin
6 Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
7 Ninja Combat Reflexes
8 Ninja Trick: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strikes)
9 Ninja Sap Master
10 Fighter Knockout Artist
11 Fighter Big Game Hunter, Piranha Strikes
12 Fighter
I don't think you can take both snake style and snake fang at first, can you? You don't meet the prereqs for either yet, and MoMS only gives you one free at that level. Also, while I love vanishing trick, you could drop it for a combat trick to make up the feat you lose by being an aasimar instead of human.
ubiquitous wrote: karossii wrote: ubiquitous wrote: Also, just something to consider: neither monk nor ninja are proficient with a sap. It's a martial weapon. Yet another reason for at least one fighter level. Sap Adept and Sap Master don't actually use a sap, just any non-lethal bludgeoning melee attack; which includes unarmed strikes. Ah, true. Damn, I was hoping someone would point out a sneaky way for a ninja to get proficiency with one without spending any feats. Half Elf racial, a couple of traits...
My mistake. See this, Aasimar:
1 Monk Weapon Finesse, Boar Style
2 Ninja
3 Monk Snake Style, Snake Fang
4 Monk
5 Monk Fast Drinker, Qinggong: Barkskin
6 Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
7 Ninja Sap Adept
8 Ninja Trick: Combat Trick: Combat Reflexes
9 Ninja Sap Master
10 Fighter Knockout Artist
11 Fighter Big Game Hunter, Piranha Strikes
12 Fighter
Vanishing trick is vital for sap master, you will not be able to utilise it if you cannot become invisible.
I think you can ditch Piranha Strike... I did some math and was surprised to find that on a 3/4 BAB character it (or Power Attack) lowers the DPR.
What are you thinking for Traits? I think there is a Trait or two in the Dragon Empires primer that gives a +1 damage to UAS, which would obviously be perfect for this build.
He can always replace it with teh Two-weapon fighting feat.
Why is vanishing trick vital? Ah, I see... you have ditched the enforcer/shatter defenses combo.
Hmm, vanishing trick is only good for a single attack each round (first attack breaks invisibility)... I don't think that is a viable alternative. With enforcer/shatter defenses, and decent intimidate, you will have sneak attack dice on just about every attack every round.
so by dumping vanishing trick (not needed with enforcer/shatter defenses), fast drinker (don't know that I would need it), big game hunter (situational and worse than virtually always-on sneak attacks), and piranha strike (not sure it would be worth it with lower AB) gets me the 4 feats to get enforcer/shatter defenses combo.
I am losing:
situational invisibility (depends on ki pool and swift action usage)
drinking during combat for extra ki (I assume to boost invisibility uses; not needed if no vanishing trick)
+1 to hit/+2 to damage against large foes (likely frequent in higher level games - but I doubt it will ever be more than 50% of the time)
-2 to hit for +4 to damage against all foes (as pointed out above, not necessarily a benefit to a low AB character)
and gaining:
+1 to hit (weapon focus)
free action intimidate to cause shaken for #rounds = damage (enforcer)
any shaken foe is flat footed (shatter defenses)
almost useless; intimidate all foes in 30' as a move action (dazzling display) - probably a combat opener or situationally useful; mostly a feat tax
1 Monk (Weapon Finesse, Boar Style)
2 Fighter (Enforcer)
3 Ninja (Sap Adept)
4 Ninja (Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike)
5 Ninja (Dazzling Display)
6 Ninja (Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses)
7 Ninja (Sap Master)
8 Fighter (Snake Style)
9 Monk (Snake Fang)
10 Monk (-)
11 Monk (Combat Reflexes)
12 Fighter (-)
Alternatively, I could dump Monk4 for Fighter4, and add in Kockout Artist as the extra feat. I would not get d8 unarmed strikes, but I would get +1 per SA die; which is probably much higher. I also lose barkskin from qinggong; but at that late in the game, I don't know it is a critical issue. I think most of my ki will be used for extra attacks (as ninja) even if I had the monk side too. It does mean I lose WIS to ki...hmm, not sure on the overall value of knockout artist vs. all the monk benefits.
Of course, if I do that, I may as well dump monk3 as well; the only realy benefits are fast movement and drunken ki. Versus various benefits depending on the fighter archetype at fighter 5; probably weapon master's 1/day reroll... I dunno, probably stick with monk 4.
Don't neglect the awesomeness that is the Scout archetype. Sap Adept/Master DOES work with it, because it treats you next attack as if the target were Flatfooted. Also - this means if you attack as a standard, kill your foe, then move 10 feet or more(granted if you're level 8 Ninja at this point) the next time you attack (including AoO's) would be a sneak attack.
And make sure to pick up Offensive Defense. With Sap Adept and Master, you should be uppding your AC by your level or more each round. Not. Bad. Knock Out Artist is kinda sweet when you consider you're now getting 1d6+3 dmg/(Ninja)level, +1 AC/(Ninja)level, every time you sneak attack.
Okay, I decided to dump everything I had, reread all of the options I have looked at while developing the concept, and start from scratch.
The main reason I was going for Aasimar was two +2 stats and no -2 stat. I can get that with a Human too, if I dump the feat and skill point. But I am not sure it is worth it; the skill point makes up for 2 points in INT (the only thing I would use INT for). And then I get a free feat. So I am on the fence about which way I will go - but I think I will be a Human.
Next, monk - I need monk for FOB, unless I want to invest in TWF. FOB gives me full STR to both attacks, let me use one weapon (or unarmed stirke) for all attacks, and saves me a feat. With TWF, I can take other feats and enhance it in other ways; but that costs feats. I could trade FOB for getting Boar Style 2 levels early; but as much as I would love it at first level, I don't think it is worth it in the long run. I get WIS to AC, increased unarmed damage, stunning fist (which probably won't ever be used), a bonus monk feat, and good saves. By adding the Four Winds and Sacred Mountain archetypes, and taking at least two levels in monk, I gain Elemental Fist instead of stunning fist, and a natural armor bonus at 2nd level. I don't think more monk is needed or worth it.
So - Rogue or Ninja? Both give me Sneak Attack at the same rate, and tricks/talents at the same rate (which are more or less interchangeable). Ninja gives me a Ki pool, allowing me to take extra attacks by spending ki. I get several other abilities I would never use. Rogue lets me take several archetypes Ninja doesn't qualify for (lacking the class abilities to give up), and so I think I will move back to Rogue. Going over all of the archetypes, I know I do not care about trapfinding, so I can give that up. Swashbuckler gives me a wasted proficiency (maybe I will grab a ranged weapon?) as well as allowing me to take Combat Trick twice for an extra combat feat, and a bonus to acrobatics and saves vs. fear. Not a bad exchange. Bandit is another archetype which is compatible with swashbuckler; I give up uncanny dodge for a full round of actions in the surprise round. With a decent WIS, I should be able to keep perception high enough to make use of this.
And Fighter levels. I thought about swapping fighter for ranger, and going TWF - then dropping monk entirely. but after some number crunching, archetype comparisons, and the general feel of the abilities gained, I decided against it. I could go with Unarmed Fighter archetype and grab Boar Style that way. Still not worth it, when I look over the alternatives. Weapon Master yields some decent bonuses; +1 attack and damage and a 1/day reroll. But Brawler gives +1 attack / +3 damage. I think in the end, that will be worth more than the 1/day reroll. I looked at others (all of them, in fact) but felt this the best.
So now I know the race, classes, and archetypes, what about the levels? 2 levels of monk seems adequate. Weaponmaster would have made 5 levels of fighter attractive, but with Brawler 3 is adequate. That leaves 7 levels for rogue; getting me 4d6 base sneak attack and 3 talents. Seems like a good fit altogether.
So here is my proposed build.
Human, Monk (Four Winds, Sacred Mountain) / Fighter (Brawler) / Rogue (Bandit, Swashbuckler)
10, 18, 14, 8, 14, 12
1] Monk 1 IUS, FOB (-1), Elemental Fist, US1d6, WIS to AC, Monk Bonus Feat () Human Bonus Feat (), L1 Feat ()
2] Monk 2 Natural Armor (+1), Toughness, Monk Bonus Feat ()
3] Rogue 1 Sneak Attack (1d6), Martial Weapon (?), L3 Feat (Sap Adept)
4] Fighter 1 Fighter Bonus Feat ()
5] Rogue 2 Rogue Talent (), L5 Feat (), Evasion
6] Fighter 2 Fighter Bonus Feat (), Bravery, 'Close Control'
7] Rogue 3 Sneak Attack (2d6), 'Daring' (+1), L7 Feat ()
8] Fighter 3 'Close Combatant'
9] Rogue 4 Rogue Talent (), 'Ambush', L9 Feat ()
10] Rogue 5 Sneak Attack (3d6)
11] Rogue 6 Rogue Talent (), 'Daring' (+2), L11 Feat ()
12] Rogue 7 Sneak Attack (5d6)
So I have (2) Monk Bonus Feats, (2) Fighter Bonus Feats, 7 normal Feats, and 3 Rogue Talents.
For the Monk feats, I will probably pick two of the following three; Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows.
I can take Combat Trick for two of the talents, granting (along with the fighter bonus) 4 Combat feats.
Here's my pool of 8 feats I more or less "need" to take for this build;
Weapon finesse
Boar Style
Enforcer
Weapon Focus
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Sap Adept
Sap Master
All of which are combat feats. I can get either Weapon Focus and/or Weapon Finesse for a rogue talent, 4 more of them from fighter bonus feats and combat tricks. That leaves 3 which come from my pool of 'normal' feats.
Other optional feats to fill the remaining 4 feat slots;
Knockout Artist
Piranha Strike
Mobility
Skill Focus (Intimidate)*
Perfect Strike
Others???
*If I decide to take a skill focus, I will trade my human bonus feat for the 3 skill focus feats, likely grabbing perception, intimidate, and acrobatics.
So, a more or less complete rebuild, from ground up, that probably looks a lot like the previous incarnations.
Thoughts?
Equipment suggestions? (I know I need an agile AOMF, but what should I use for armor? What other items are a 'must' for this build?)
[edit] I am still up in the air re: race. I may switch back to Aasimar (the spell-like ability could be very nice), I may switch to Dual Focus (or whatever the human trait is that grants two +2 stats), or I may swap the bonus feat for 3 skill focus feats. Would welcome input on that decision too!
For an intimidator rogue, the thug archetype is a must. I also don't see why you neglect the scout archetype, sneak on charge and 10 feet move (granted you will not take enough rogue lvls for the last feature to kick in) are better than anything else the other archetypes have to offer.
In addition, Elemental Fist is mediocre without the proper styles to support it, Stunning Fist is much better. It lets you deal sneak atack damage too if it connects, which is a major boost for you.
Finally, I believe that in a Dex based character Evasion will be more useful in the long run than Toughness.
A proposition. Use a sap for the first two lvls.
Human, MoMS Monk 1, Scout/Thug Rogue 7, Brawler Fighter 4
1 Brawler Weapon Finesse, Enforcer, TWF
2 Brawler Combat Reflexes
3 MoMS Snake Style, Snake Fang
4 Brawler
5 Brawler Boar Style, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes)
6 Rogue
7 Rogue Sap Adept, Talent: Combat Trick: Shatter Defences
8 Rogue Dazzling Display
9 Rogue Shatter Defences, Talent: Offensive Defence
10 Rogue
11 Rogue Sap Master, Talent: Ninja Trick: Feat: Knockout Artist
12 Rogue
karossii wrote:
1] Monk 1 IUS, FOB (-1), Elemental Fist, US1d6, WIS to AC, Monk Bonus Feat () Human Bonus Feat (), L1 Feat ()
2] Monk 2 Natural Armor (+1), Toughness, Monk Bonus Feat ()
3] Rogue 1 Sneak Attack (1d6), Martial Weapon (?), L3 Feat (Sap Adept)
4] Fighter 1 Fighter Bonus Feat ()
5] Rogue 2 Rogue Talent (), L5 Feat (), Evasion
6] Fighter 2 Fighter Bonus Feat (), Bravery, 'Close Control'
7] Rogue 3 Sneak Attack (2d6), 'Daring' (+1), L7 Feat ()
8] Fighter 3 'Close Combatant'
9] Rogue 4 Rogue Talent (), 'Ambush', L9 Feat ()
10] Rogue 5 Sneak Attack (3d6)
11] Rogue 6 Rogue Talent (), 'Daring' (+2), L11 Feat ()
12] Rogue 7 Sneak Attack (5d6)
If you fit in a 3rd level of Monk you will get Still Mind.
I would suggest Monastic Legacy
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat
This will allow your Unarmed damage to grow by 1/2 your non monk levels.
I looked closely at the thug archetype, and it seemed redundant based on the existing abilities I have with enforcer/shatter defenses. If I use it to make them frightened, I lose the benefits of them being shaken (mainly, treating them as flat footed for every attack). Making them sickened is not bad, but I am not sure how it stacks against the raw damage - 1d6 of sneak attack is actually 2d6+6 after my feats buff it.
Stunning Fist would be a relatively weak DC save or be stunned; not bad but I was worried about the save DC. Elemental Fist might let me bypass some DR or pull off other effects. I could easily go either way with it... I didn't see either as a critical point in the build; it will be a relatively low number of uses each day.
If it were just evasion vs. toughness, I would probably agree. But I also gain a +1 bonus to Natural Armor. I think the two benefits are worth the trade. I am not certain about that, I could be wrong. I guess at high levels, saves are much more important than AC... in which case Evasion is better.
I actually thought about Monastic Legacy; but I would either give up a die of sneak attack (which, again, becomes 2d6+6 extra damage) or the +1 to attack and +3 to damage from brawler. It would only net me a 1 size increase to 1d8 vs. 1d6 (3 monk + (9/2) non monk = 7th level, just shy of 1d10); even if I could eek out 1d10; that is 5.5 vs 3.5 damage on average; not worth the losses I would have to trade out.
A point regarding evasion - I now remember I traded away monk's evasion on purpose; I still get evasion as a rogue.
I am thinking I may dump all 3 levels of fighter and got Rogue 10/Monk 2... if I don't care about the natural armor and toughness, I may even drop it to rogue 11/monk 1.
It gets me another die of sneak attack (again, one die of sneak attack equates to 2d6+6 in the end game) and two more rogue talents (one of which is an advanced talent) in exchange for +2 to hit/+3 to damage, and 2 bonus feats. While feats are always useful, I seem to have a few extra in this build; so it may be worth it.
A dip at MoMS at 3rd lvl gives you Snake Style and Snake Fang. These are the only things you want from the Monk. However, if you take only this single lvl you will not have IUS until the third lvl. Are you ok with this? If not you can take two lvls of MoMS at 2nd and 3rd and have Snake Fang by 3rd lvl but IUS by 2nd.
I still like Thug, the ability to make them run can be at times more useful than having them attack you, even as flat-footed. It gived you more options, and having options is good.
As far as Stunning fist goes, you have a point. I would probably keep it, you will probably boost you Wis somehow so the DC will be somewhat relevant.
I had not notice that you will gain Evasion from Rogue, MotSM becomes a good pick this way.
I also believe that there is no room for Monastic Legacy.
Sample Human Monk (MoMS, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/ Rogue (Thug, Scout) 10
1 Rogue Weapon Finesse, Enforcer
2 Monk IUS, Stunning Fist, Snake Style
3 Monk Snake Fang, Combat Reflexes, Toughness
4 Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike)
5 Rogue Dazzling Display
6 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Shatter Defences
7 Rogue Sap Adept
8 Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
9 Rogue Sap Master
10 Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick (Feat: Knockout Artist)
11 Rogue Boar Style
12 Rogue Advanced Talent: Opportunist
What do you think? I insist on Snake Fang because your ability to attack multiple times per round is what defines you offensively from the more standard Str based martial. And you need to increase your attack chances because you have no Str to back them up.
I'm still not convinced I want snake style/snake fang - as long as I get FOB, I am good. The improved damage, WIS to AC, and stunning (or elemental) fist are just bonuses.
Going with MoMS, I am trading away a guaranteed extra attack (FoB), for potential attacks (only if they provoke AoOs). I realize it opens up a new avenue for AoO provoking (missed attacks), but it still puts the control of a large portion of my build (multiple attacks for Boar Strike and extra SA damage) into the hands of the DM. He can start choosing to avoid me rather than provoke.
I realize I could shore this weakness up by taking TWF, but not only does that put extra feats into the required list, but it is weaker than FoB (requires an off-hand attack, which gets half STR (or half DEX with agile AoMF).
And finally; I know of some DMs who would limit Boar Style to two or more attacks landing in an attack sequence (i.e. FoB, TWF, or Iterative attacks), and not count extra attacks from AoOs and the like. I disagree with that by RAW, but I can see it happening.
FOB needs a full attack and lowers your attack bonus. In your first round you will probably use dazzling dissplay and in the second you will close for a standard action attack. It will not be until the third round that you will be full-attacking, unless they come to you, in which case they have already provoked at least one but possibly more AoOs from Snake Fang. With only a couple of lvls in Monk you cannot take advantage of their full BAB in flurry feature either. In contrast, Snake Style gives you both survivability and most importantly let's you take advantage of your high number of attack of opportunities you can throw because of your Dex. Remember that you don't have reach, this is your only way to take advantage of this aspect of your character.
If your GM ignores you, the better for you, start reigning havok, literally run through their lines to provoke AoOs by yourself and mess up their formations. Snake fang is really that awesome that should not just be ignored.
Now if your GM rules Boar style this way (blatantly against the RAW) just get rid of it. To be honest it is not such a great addition anyway, the crane style feats are much more useful. Don't make him the favor of handicapping one of your feats, instead take TWF or the crane style feats that will cause him even more trouble.
Hmm, I had a rather decent ninja/monk unarmed sap master build statted out somewhere...
Ah righty, here it is:
The Ninja Grandmaster.
TL:DR,
1.) Wisdom for as much as possible (AC, ki points, to hit, ability DC)
2.) The ability to use dastardly finish as much as possible (crane riposte - stunning fist - coup de grace)
3.) Decent mix of damage, buffing (both self and party) and weird abilities.
prototype00
prototype; that is a very different, but very nice build. I like the flavor a lot!
If you would rebuild it as a PFS character, and given the resources available now that weren't a year ago, what might you do differently?
Actually I used as inspiration the Grandmaster when trying to compose the builds above. However it need tweaking in order to cover your needs because: 1) Dastardly finish is obtained at lvl 13, and most importantly: 2) it has no flurry neither twf or snake style, so it is not suitable for boar style. Don't misunderstand me, it is a great build that gets the job done, but not in the way you want it to.
|
