Well, it'd be interesting. Honestly, it could work quite well, considering that Monks gain Unarmed Strike damage dice increase combined with Natural Attacks gained from Druid Shapeshifting. Since both are Natural Weapons, they can all be used with a Full Attack. It also gives the Monk more incentive to have a higher Wisdom instead of Dexterity and/or Strength, making it a much more MAD character.
At the same time, the lowered BAB combined with the minimal spellcasting capabilities needed to make the Druid even worthwhile to dip into makes this sort of combination absolutely useless. It's interesting in that you have an animal not only using its claws and bite, but also its body to slam into enemies (symbolizing its Unarmed Strikes). Of course, it's also going to be much weaker than oh say, a Bard specializing in offensive combat (because let's face it, Bards are only good as CC and/or Buff Bots).
So the scale would be 1-3 tops, depending upon how the build is constructed. Chances are, it won't be any good by the end game, and even by the early game you're missing out on a lot of BAB and iteratives while leveling. Making for a weak character, and thusly a weak build.
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I'm not worried about the mechanics part - That's all covered extremely well. I'll happily send you a build if you want to check it out. The two classes combine incredibly well.
I'm just worried about the thought of the RP for it. I don't want to create something that is far too cheesy to be true, or abuse what I can build via RAW and it come off as "douchebaggery" to other players or my DM. That's why I asked how cheesy it would come off as : P I'm really worried about that part beyond anything else. :(
I'd give it a 3. You don't really see kung-fu animals outside of animation, so throwing it into a different genre may be interesting. The idea may sound cheesy on paper, but what you decide to do with your Lion Monk can totally change it up.
LN is a perfectly valid alignment.
There are a lot of animal style martial arts, your monk is just taking them to the next level.
I'm not worried about the mechanics part - That's all covered extremely well. I'll happily send you a build if you want to check it out. The two classes combine incredibly well.
I'm just worried about the thought of the RP for it. I don't want to create something that is far too cheesy to be true, or abuse what I can build via RAW and it come off as "douchebaggery" to other players or my DM. That's why I asked how cheesy it would come off as : P I'm really worried about that part beyond anything else. :(
Kaz I'd love to see sample build. Post it here for PM me if you wish
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FEATS -> Class Abilities -> Bonus Feat(format)
LvL 1 Desparate Battler -> IUS, FoB, Stunning Fist -> Dodge
LvL 2 -> Evasion -> Combat Reflexes
LvL 3 Weapon Focus -> Fast movement, maneuver Training, Still Mind ->
LvL 4 -> Ki Pool(Magic), Barkskin ->
LvL 5 Snake Style -> Purity of Body, True Strike ->
LvL 6 -> -> Improved Disarm
LvL 7 Snake Sidewind -> Nature Bond, Nature Sense, Orisons, Wild Empathy ->
LvL 8 -> Woodland Stride ->
LvL 9 Snake Fang -> Trackless Step ->
LvL 10 -> Resist Nature's Lure, Wild Shape x1
LvL 11 Shaping Focus -> ->
LvL 12 -> Wild Shape x2 ->
LvL 13 Natural Spell -> ->
LvL 14 -> Wild Shape x3 ->
LvL 15 Quicken Spell -> Venom Immunity ->
LvL 16 -> Wild Shape x4 ->
LvL 17 Death from Above -> Ki Pool(Cold Iron/Silver), Power Attack ->
LvL 18 -> ->
LvL 19 Monastic Legacy -> Improved Evasion
LvL 20 -> Ki Pool(Lawlful) -> Medusa's Wrath
Q-Monk 6/Druid 10/Q-Monk 4
Necessary Equipment:
Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 w/Guided
Monk's Robe
Padded Armor +5 w/Brawling+Light Fort+Wild
Belt of Incredible Dexterity
Headband of Inspired Wisdom
Ring of Protection +5
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Lord's Banner of Victory
It aims at high-rounded defenses, colossal fist damage + whatever static increases and flurrying for up to 6 attacks, snake style for up to 7 more attacks, medusa's wrath for 2 attacks, disabling via stunning fist+trip+punishing kick(the one feat im debating swapping for death from above, or i could stick with +5 to every attack with pounce...) and stuff. I can give you the projected level 20 stats of the character too if you like.
I'm not worried about the mechanics part - That's all covered extremely well. I'll happily send you a build if you want to check it out. The two classes combine incredibly well.
I'm just worried about the thought of the RP for it. I don't want to create something that is far too cheesy to be true, or abuse what I can build via RAW and it come off as "douchebaggery" to other players or my DM. That's why I asked how cheesy it would come off as : P I'm really worried about that part beyond anything else. :(
Unarmed Strikes =/= Martial Arts. Monks excel at Unarmed Strikes better than most, but so do Unarmed Fighters, and those guys aren't Martial Artists.
Let's take one of your build examples and say he transforms into a bear. Bears generally swat at bee nests for honey and such, not caring about the bees themselves (hence the thick fur they have). Quite frankly, bears swatting at stuff like that can constitute as unarmed strikes.
In addition, bears are generally huge (especially Grizzly's). Their body is more than capable of smashing into enemies and causing a great deal of pain. The Unarmed Strike rolls can constitute as this.
Honestly, unless you transform into something with a humanoid-like shape (i.e. Elemental), you'll be physically incapable of "Kung-Fu," but RAW, you're still not limited from your Unarmed Strikes which you can use other parts of your body for (Headbutt, Hindleg Swatting, etc.) I don't see a problem with it, mechanics-wise OR roleplay-wise.
Beyond the animal style martial arts, there are also things like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2u-CkUSyOI that might convince a DM to accept kung fu animals
i was more thinking this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEFjMOjyQEs
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@Kazumetsa Raijin: I do not think your combination smacks of douchebaggery. Whether or not anyone at your table feels like you're just being a jerk is all about how you portray it. Have a personality, have fun with the interactions, take every slice of humble pie handed to you with grace, and you won't have an issue. It really boils down to whether or not they feel you just wanted to play the character build because it resembled Kraft Macaroni and Cheese (it's the cheesiest). So, use your powers, kick butt, don't play like a douche, and you won't end up perceived as one. When questions come up about what you can do, just explain "Well, when I was looking for options as to my feat/power/whatever I spent a lot of time going over the choices and I just felt this one was the best fit. I'm really satisfied with how it works out." i think you have a significant strength in that argument considering how often you have hit these message boards looking for help and engaging in discussions as to how the class features/feats/etc interplay. Further, Druids and Monks require a little more thought to play effectively than a Paladin (arguably more powerful depending on build) or Gunslinger (hated by popular demand regardless of power comparisons) or a few other common overachievers.
My bottom line?
You have spent a lot of energy and effort making this character for yourself. Don't let guilt (over it turning out amazing) prevent you from seeing that come to life.
Unarmed Strikes =/= Martial Arts. Monks excel at Unarmed Strikes better than most, but so do Unarmed Fighters, and those guys aren't Martial Artists.
Let's take one of your build examples and say he transforms into a bear. Bears generally swat at bee nests for honey and such, not caring about the bees themselves (hence the thick fur they have). Quite frankly, bears swatting at stuff like that can constitute as unarmed strikes.
In addition, bears are generally huge (especially Grizzly's). Their body is more than capable of smashing into enemies and causing a great deal of pain. The Unarmed Strike rolls can constitute as this.
Honestly, unless you transform into something with a humanoid-like shape (i.e. Elemental), you'll be physically incapable of "Kung-Fu," but RAW, you're still not limited from your Unarmed Strikes which you can use other parts of your body for (Headbutt, Hindleg Swatting, etc.) I don't see a problem with it, mechanics-wise OR roleplay-wise.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here... Maybe make that diplomacy/linguistics check again?
How cheesy is a 10 druid/10 monk? well, relatively its less cheesy than a straight druid...
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1-3 cheese rating because you don't see many animated characters (cartoonishly animated that is). It won't be broken and you aren't using any Cheesy rules exceptions with the character (I assume), so I seems just fine to make a kung-fu lion. Now, if you play it stupidly, you can make any character cheesy, so play it wisely and good luck.
I think this is a pretty cool character concept, but I've kind of played it before. Shango the Dread Lion was much feared for his pouncing and grappling abilities, but he could also turn into a huge stone statue of himself (earth elemental) and punch stuff for 6d6 damage. With his faithful flanking buddy Fisi the hyena he was effective and fun. There was one other player in the group who complained that wildshape lasts too long, and the DM felt that my damage while pouncing was too high, but I don't recall anybody disliking the character concept.
Since you're wearing armor and also planning to flurry I'm guessing that you feel that the penalty for armor should no apply while you are wildshaped. That's something which might potentially cause some arguments or upset the DM and other players. If you can get reliable access to Mage Armor from another PC or maybe wands you'll only lose 2 AC and potentially avoid some "d-bag" charges.
I'm guessing that your damage plan involves using the Monk's Robe plus Strong Jaw to get really high base damage for your unarmed strikes. I don't think that's too cheesy since you could get higher base damage with a natural weapon and still flurry with Feral Combat Training.
Kaz said that it'd be cheesy to have an animal character utilize unarmed strikes, since it'd be like an animal being able to do Kung Fu. It's not true. Just because you can use Unarmed Strikes doesn't mean you're a Martial Artist. People generally flavor it that way, but if you're an Animal, Kung Fu is impossible to use as a style because they don't have the humanoid capability or flexibility to do so.
If you want something like that, Catfolk Monk is right around the corner.
However, keeping the Wildshape intact, animals do use their limbs/body to perform attacks, which can be viewed as Unarmed Strikes. This video can help demonstrate what I'm talking about (seeing how the wolf uses the shoulder of its front paw to crash into the cat).
