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Hello, Paizo PbP Discussion board! Along with Arthur Perkins I am a Venture-Lieutenant for Online Play for Pathfinder Society. As such I wanted to reach out to the different venues for Online PFS, both VTT and PbP, both to get to know the various arms of the (ginormous) community, and to introduce myself.
I'd love to hear about your PbP PFS games, and also if there's any way that your Venture Officers can assist you in building Online Play.
So far, we are building GameDays for Online Play, including Paizo boon and prize support! We are including PbP in this as well, based on the start/finish time of the scenario. I'll have more details on that later on.
In addition, we have a special event for Talk Like a Pirate Day- you could win a free copy of Pirates of the Inner Sea! See the post in the Grand Lodge Online Play forum for more info.
All that being said, I do have some questions for the community, which I'd love your input on:
-How much PFS would you feel is played in your community?
-What challenges do you think PbP faces with PFS content?
-Can you think of any ways your VOs can help you promote PFS in your community?
At some point in the future, I'll be putting together a Google Hangout so that I can meet with some of you and we can have a direct conversation, but for now, I'd love to hear what you have to say in both this thread and through private messages if you prefer.
Hey there Doctor Kash, good to hear from you over in these threads. I found Joseph Caubo's Grand Lodge Online Play forum, but it seems to favor VTT games over PBP, likely because the PBPers find most of their games through the Online Campaign threads in this area.
About myself, I am a working husband and father and and what little free time I have is normally dedicated to a small group of friends for a couple live tabletop campaigns played about once a month. My experience with PFS has been mainly through PBP, and through the Paizo forums I am currently playing in three games and GMing two others (Night March of Kalkamedes and The Enigma Vaults from Thornkeep). I also signed up to run Citadel of Flame during the Official PBP Gameday event.
I also created a campaign on the Paizo forums called Maximo's Hideaway, which I use for two purposes. First, to have a permanent campaign Gameplay thread for my players to roleplay characters and get to know one another outside of the adventure. Second, to have a common discussion thread to organize the next scenario or chat player to player about whatever.
Regarding your questions:
There are a few PFS organized groups in my area (Southern California), but it seems like every group has a different method for announcing games. Warhorn.net seems to be one of the more popular hubs for listings, but in my opinion it, lacks information, is badly organized, and frustrating to browse. I'm curious why the Paizo forums cannot somehow manage this better.
Regarding PFS content for PBP, I think most scenarios work well, and that google doc drawings are the best way to handle maps. I've seen a bit of talk about making scenario artwork a little more accessible, and some GMs have been compiling and sharing reference documents, but I don't know what the official Paizo stance on that is.
About promoting PFS, Joseph Caubo's Grand Lodge Online Play forum is a little buried in the forums and disconnected from the Online Campaign area. It might help if PFS had its own dedicated campaign section.
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Greetings Doctor Kash, welcome to PbP! I am glad to see Online Play start to get some attention, though PbP still seems to be thought of as..."second class" by part of the community. I hope that changes, as PbP is a great media to play in and can be one of the only outlets for some people.
The PbPs has it's own somewhat "core group" of participants, just as the PF Online Collective does. That is one of the major things that drew me to PFS, the community. As an example, I know who DM Rah is there and have GM'd a few games for him and know him to be a great player. He as I, have a certain core group of players that we tend to play with, though of course are always welcoming new players, that show they are dedicated to posting with some regularity. (I'm still trying to get a toehold into Rah's group, but alas to no avail. I like to look into the window of Maximo's Hideaway and dream, one day! ;)).
My suggestion to the online VO's, if you want to get to know PbP, then you should play in one yourself. So I am extending an invite to you, Arthur, and Joe. Let me run a game for you, you choose the scenario, I'll find a couple more players. I've played on the VTTs many times and have almost been killed by A.P. at least twice, as well as getting to run through WBG in under 45 min.
So if you guys want to try out PbP, send me a PM!
Hey Hawkwen, if the VOs take you up on that offer I'll fill a player seat if you need it. Also, consider yourself invited to Maximo's Hideaway. It was created for current active players, but there is plenty of room for more.
Doctor Kash, the invitation stands open to any VO to visit as well, In character or Out.
I think this is a great idea, the online players getting some official PFS love. I love the idea of some boons for the pbp'ers!
I'm a member of several of Rah's groups, and for the most part that is the only gaming I can do nowadays. I work roughly 60 hours a week, and am too busy for a regular in person group, but I can easily check in several times a day for a post or three. This is my only gaming conduit, and thanks to GM's like Rah, I still get to play! I assume there are others in my same situation.
A dedicated PFS section for nine play would be a great addition, IMHO.
I agree with all of the points made by the three preceding me. I have played or GMed with each of them. In addition to the limits on personal time that PBP helps overcome, I enjoy playing with players that have an opportunity to develop character back stories that are deeper than when I play at tables in person. The 4-5 hour time frame limits some of the role play interaction that develops over the weeks you play In a PBp game.
Having boons for online or PBP characters is a move in the right direction. Another idea might be to have a place for retired or in-between adventurers to have a few drinks discussing past exploits. Not sure if that manifests as a forum or thread for various city pubs (or libraries) where you could go hang out with your buddies between missions. Just throwing the idea out there.
Thanks.
Hi Aarvid, good to see you here too.
Regarding a place for retired or in-between adventure Pathfinders, I created Maximo's Hideaway to be a common place in the spirit of what you described. I was keeping it somewhat private because I didn't want it to get flooded with posts, but I don't mind sharing it with others. Maybe we could start up a couple more. Or were you were thinking about something more official?
Welcome, Doctor Kash.
I've been playing and running PFS games both in person and by PBP for a long time. At present I'm either in or GMing fourteen PBP games here at paizo.com. In addition, I play in two PBP games and GM four PBP adventure paths on my own site. I also run a biweekly face to face Shattered Star game.
I have never played a live online game (such as via a VTT) and have no interest in it. The thing I like about PBP is (as Gerald noted above) the ease of posting a few times a day when its convenient for me. I don't have to sit down and play when everyone else is ready.
There have been few challenges in finding plenty of players here at paizo.com for PBP. I'm also pleasantly surprised (as GM Aarvid noted above) at the notably superior quality of backgrounds in PBP games and occasionally higher quality of roleplaying permitted to players by the time they have to compose good posts. I've got one player whose eidolon speaks in rhyming couplets. How cool is that?
I would also love to be able to offer my players boons. Neato!
I'm happy to answer any questions you may have, here or via PM. Lastly, Hawkwen's invitation is one I'd strongly urge you to accept!
All the best,
Tarondor
@Gm Rah...cool idea. So that is like a semi private club for society members. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of having specific bars/pubs/inns from the game world...in Absalom or Magnimar where a character could drop in and post. But I had not given it any thought beyond that. Maybe that would be too much like a WoW feel, I do not know.
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Howdy Arthur. Glad you guys peaked in down here. While I may echo some of my contemporaries, here are my answers to your questions.
-How much PFS would you feel is played in your community?
If you mean, on the Pazio PbP boards, I would say 10 to 15% of active games are PFS games. A majority of these games are ran stable of GM's out there that run one game after another. One of the minorities are GM's with little or no experience that one to get their feet wet with PFS. As you know, PFS is excellent in this respect as the scenarios can provide a short term game without having to lock people in for the long haul.
-What challenges do you think PbP faces with PFS content?
Anytime there isn't a map for an encounter, yet a complex set up (factory in Many Fortunes of Torch), this can be annoying for a GM depending on the medium he is using for map projection.
While I have not come across such a scenario yet, if it is vital that a party be split, this can be difficult in a PbP setting.
I would find Chases to be difficult along with scenarios that send waves of enemies. I would also assume that scenarios that are played on a vertical field (either flying enemies or along a cliff face) can make the game sticky due to mapping.
A year or so ago, there was an issue with players dropping out and a few GM's too. That leaves games in sticky situations: continue, stop, change tier, etc. This has been easily resolved by quick posting rates that keep the PC's interested and hopefully finishing a game within 2 to 3 months (if not sooner). I also audit potential players that I may GM or the GM's themselves if I'm going to submit a character to be considered. If there is a history of slow posting rate or dropping off of games, this will influence my decision.
I feel there is more behind this question, so I don't know if I answered it fully.
-Can you think of any ways your VOs can help you promote PFS in your community?
Not really. Around here, a GM willing to run a PFS game will get dozen applicants. Unless the game is at higher tier, then it will typically be ran. With the PbP format on paizo, you pretty much have everything all inclusive. Anybody that has any questions about PFS, you send them to the PFS board. ;)
It will be interesting to see how this Online Gameday goes and how many different people sign up for games.
I guess one way to promote PFS on PbP would be to supply PbP only boons. Not that I'm a boon hunter, but you asked, so there you go.
Currently for me, I don't need more players when I try to run a game and I feel the current number of game available for me to play in is fine. I do believe somebody can burn out with PbP. Typically when this occurs, the person ends all the games at once. This can cause the problems that I described above.
Anything you want to expand on, let me know.
Cheers,
Neb
Greetings Dr. Kash!
I was wondering if you were going to promote the online Games Day event? I'd provide the links here, but my references are not at hand.
Hello!
I love the PBP format for my character and to GM. With 2 little kids it is a great way for me to get my gaming fix.
I have been involved in PFS PBP games for over a year now I have GMed at least as many PBP games as table-top games.
I would love to be involved in the conversation, I can play in a PBP if you need another player, and I look forward to the Google Hangout!
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As a restaurant manager, getting to game days (and my area is probably one of the most prolific in the USA from what I can tell) can take weeks to make happen. I have a Tuesday night PFS group that gets together MOST weeks, but that is due to pure luck of scheduling. That said, when I first got involved in PFS (only 6 months ago), I found the website and within a week I was apping for PBP games. I tend to look for adventure paths, which are awesome for PBP, since most people will never get to play in more than one FULL AP. I would LOVE to see a caveat for Adventure Paths that makes it so you can get the certs for an entire AP if you have played the entire thing via PBP and it hasn't been completed before the certs come out. It's a bummer to be a book into Kingmaker and know that soon there will be certs that I won't get because we are past it. Since the records are there on the site, it would be easy to track who was involved with the path during that segment.
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I have just started running PFS on these boards. I am currently on my 3rd scenario. I enjoy running via the boards, but sometimes the games can move very slowly, or explaining rules misconceptions can slow a game up.
Thank you for giving online play Boon support! Being in Hawaii, the island of Kauai has a very very small gaming community, and only a handful of us play Pathfinder. We are usually hard pressed to arrange a meeting to have in-person PFS games due to work schedules.
I think, that if we can get the word out a little more, then maybe we could do well, but we don't even have a FLGS on Kauai anymore.
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-How much PFS would you feel is played in your community?
I play on the pbp forums here ... it's difficult to say how many people are involved. I am playing 5 different games now (3 are PFS), but because of aliases for all I know I am playing with the same people everywhere.
I would presume you could ask Paizo's tech staff to pull the data on how many unique users are in the php forums ... then look and see how many threads are PFS ... would give you a pretty good idea.
What challenges do you think PbP faces with PFS content?
Maps. Mapping is a pain now. (get image, manipulate, upload static image.) I think Paizo should solve this with GameSpace ... and embed GameSpace elements in the forums.
Requirements
- Maps already provided in the system
- Asynchronous GM, Player Access: GM sets up the map and logs off, players at different times come in, move their pieces and log off, Later, GM logs in and sees status ... it would be good if the GM could see the PATH of the player movement, AND manipulate everything for final status.
Can you think of any ways your VOs can help you promote PFS in your community?
Boons are a great idea. But note that for every game offered there are 10-20 applicants. This suggests a GM shortage. So BOONS FOR GMS. Encourage Gming
RyanH, have you experienced GMs utilizing a google doc for game maps? In my opinion they function better than most online mapping options (like roll20), because they are more accessible and almost any platform and mobile device can view them.
If set up correctly by a GM you can black out areas using solid shapes, indicate spell area of effects, traps, etc., and access can be allowed for players to allow them the ability to move their own character tokens or add notes. (Of course for PC access to edit you have to have a little trust that they won't peek behind hidden areas or good up the map)
Here is an example of a map from a module I just finished running. Map of The Forgotten Laboratory.
I love Rah's mapping system. I agree that it's a total pain having to go to roll20 to see a map.
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(Of course for PC access to edit you have to have a little trust that they won't peek behind hidden areas or good up the map)
I have not seen that yet, that example IS nice.
I think though that with Game Space, they have the opportunity to make something that totally fits the need and is integrated on the forums (that you are already logged into.) This of course assumes playing here on Paizo and not on some other venue.
As for player trust, on the posts you need it anyway (easy to look up maps and modules anyway, I can envision many ways to "cheat" the rolling system.) etc ... cheaters gonna cheat, I don't see any point in cheating ... that in-opertune "1", or surprise on the map is often way more exciting than that "20" ... but you're not going to stop those that do.
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One major issue I find is that threads just like this one are so dang hard to find. I literally stumbled upon it randomly. I also wasn't even aware that there where Online play VO's until yesterday or so, (which is great by the way). So a little more advertising would be great. :)
How much PFS would you feel is played in your community?
I wasn't sure if you meant PFS played in my PbP communities, or more in person table top. Really, for online, it is pretty much 100% PFS. I occasionally want to play/run either WoD or 3.5 material, but I have never really actually done so, and a long time ago tried a few games, but never really went anywhere. While I am deployed, it was pretty much the sole avenue I had to play, which was the original reason for me starting it. I also found that there where a lot of players that mentioned that they likewise could not find groups in real life, either because of just where they lived, deployment, or work schedule, so but where very interested in taking part in PbPs. A (partially bad) side effect was that it tended to put the same players together into the same groups for a while, until it grew large enough to split into more than one group. But even then it was still a lot of the same players "Pathfindering" together. Not bad, but and I really like my players, but it seems really hard to expand past a certain point, so a PFS PbP central area would be very nice I think. Preferably one on the Paizo boards, in my opinion. I've tried a few times in the past and it just gets lost in new posts too quickly.
What challenges do you think PbP faces with PFS content?
A few issues we have run into with the PbP within the context of PFS. One is along the lines of the rule about only using an individual character once at a time. Because PbP take a lot longer of a time than TT games, or even other forms of online play, and a bit of relaxing of this would be nice. Especially when it coms to things like the game wrap up. Some scenario's just do not play s well through PbP. Not really to much anyone can do about that, but ones that have huge maps, or tend to require the players to make a lot of group choices. I have noticed that the Season 5 scenario maps are also causing some issues with Google Drawings, but I was going to wait until more come out to see if it is something new or just individual scenarios. Another minor issue that might come up is that with PbPs, there isn't really a way to determine if a player has a valid reroll item, has some of the extra Boons they claim, or things like that. So far it hasn't been an issue, but it could become one, one day. there have also been a few issues with cheating on the online Dice Roller, (which is itself a terrible problem, ha ha ). It's still possible, and harder to detect. Another is that a lot of people are interested in joining or trying it out, but are not sure how to go about it. Where to start. A little article along the lines of the DM 101's on how to get into PFS PbP, Skype Games, VTTs, and the like (individually) would I'm certain be very well received and helpful. Which was one of the last points I wanted to touch upon. PbPs, while they are certainly online games, are a bit of a different beast than all the other styles, (and I have no doubt that the other styles likewise have their own particular differences, as well), but it seems more of the online PFS focus has been in regards to non-PbP online play. Obviously not all, as we have PbP Gameday, but a lot of it is not particularly relevant to PbP.
Can you think of any ways your VOs can help you promote PFS in your community? Well, my community is via the Paizo Message Boards, and as I had mentioned above, just a lot more visibility. I was unaware at all of the PbP Gameday until just before it closed. I was unaware of this thread until just now. I was unaware that there was a VO Team for online play at all, (I thought it was just JC). Perhaps doing a podcast through 3.5 Private Sanctuary and discussing some of the upcoming ideas, introducing yourselves, and the like. Or a recorded Google Hangout. That would be a good place to start. As was mentioned, perhaps join a game or two here and there, or stop into some of the ongoing game's Discussion threads and saying hi. One little thing I thought would be simple, but very cool to help promote online play or PbP PFS CMing, would be to offer minor differences. I thought that maybe having a Green star rather than purple for online GMing would be interesting, and might encourage those that like those little titles, or stars by their names to branch out a bit. Or at the very least see what the different mediums are like.
At some point in the future, I'll be putting together a Google Hangout so that I can meet with some of you and we can have a direct conversation, but for now, I'd love to hear what you have to say in both this thread and through private messages if you prefer.
This would be very cool. Especially if it where something you guys/gals could record like a podcast for those that miss it to be able to listen or watch later.
Just stopping by to say there is much good information here. While not interested in PFS per se, many of the tricks and tools you guys use or are envisaging can only help PbP on this forum. I do enjoy the RP and pace of PbP!!!
One thing occurs to me with regard to PbP generally is too perhaps somehow rate/vet GMs in terms of dedication. I've had at least three PbPs go south very suddenly, sometimes without any reason or communique as to why.
* I do like Beckett's idea of green stars for PFS PbP GMs.
* I had no idea it was still possible to cheat on PbP. On detection this should incur some kind of permaban.
* I think visibility is an issue. A new dedicated subforum for PFS PbPs might be a good idea, and camaraderie/tavern threads for Society/Factions sounds like a cool idea.
Anyway, keep up the good work. I might be wrangled into PFS yet. Perhaps when Iron Gods lands. With ACG classes. ;)
I forgot to add that needing ratings for completion/posts might be less a problem for PFS from what I can see/understand of PFS reporting culture - but perhaps it would still be useful. Definitely useful for general PbP's.
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The thing it, the completion rate isn't necessarily something that is the DM's fault or in their control. If half the party vanishes on them, they might feel that it's way too much of a risk for the remaining players to try to go on alone, and might also not feel it would be fair to add in new players that late in the game. It can also leave them in a really tricky spot. Report it or not? If they report it, it's probably a failure, and that means that (minus GM Star replays) they can't ever complete that scenario. Don't report it, and some people have just wasted days to months of their time for nothing at all. The DM might not even have the PFS info on the vanished players (it's customary to get the particulars near the end of the game).
The other side of that is that, because it takes so long to complete, well, real life comes first. It's a bit different from going to someone's house for a few hours or to a comic shop for the day. I've personally gone through a full week where the internet went out with all the rest of the power from a massive storm. Or while deployed, been "blacked out" or otherwise without power or internet for periods at a time. Work is retarded for a while, or there are family/medical/personal issues. I remember a few days every time I was actually able to log on while deployed, Paizo was "temporarily down" :). Stuff happens.
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Anyway, keep up the good work. I might be wrangled into PFS yet. Perhaps when Iron Gods lands. With ACG classes. ;)
I used to be the same way. And honestly, originally, the only reason I even started was because first while I was deployed, and then later when I came back home, it was all I could find, (and I would still rather be playing 3.5 wink, wink). But to be honest, a lot of the stuff that you hear n the message bards about how this is underpowered, or that is broken, doesn't really apply so much to PFS.
It's a really nice way to just sit down, play for a few hours with complete strangers, do your thing, see other people do their thing, and have fun, and then be able to take your character to any other PFS game and do it again, and have a completely different sort of story. It's a bit restricted, but at the same time it's not really that bad.
If you ever decide to want to try PFS PbP, let me know and I'll find a way to get you in.
I would like to respond to a couple of points Beckett has made.
I totally agree that this thread is lost in the shuffle. I only happened upon it looking through the recruiting threads. I would really like a fourth PBP forum where we can keep discussions of this nature, PBP help threads, and anything else that is not related to a single game. The current 3 threads are mostly used for running games and so anything else gets lost very quickly. Also, posting in the PFS forums with a link to this thread or others would be a great way to make sure people find it. Who knows, we may get some more people involved as well!
As for Completion rating, I don't think it's that big a deal. I have GMed 10 PFS PBP to date and not one of them has needed to end because my player base disappeared. In two of my games there was one player that dropped off the face of the digital world. They received not credit as they would have if they walked away from a table game. In general it seems that the commitment of the PFS players is higher than the average and because the scenarios have a set end point there are less issues with players going awol.
As for the character in only one session rule, I would oppose a motion to relax this for PBP games. How lame would it be if you were playing the same character in two different games and he died in one of them. Then you would be expected to play for a whole month more with a character who you know is already dead? No. For the integrity of PFS and online play, this rule is needed.
For determining boons and die rolls I don't see this as a big problem. If you want confirmation that the player has a re-roll item, then have them take a picture and send it to you. If you want to check a boon, then tell the player to scan the chronicle it's from and send it to you. As a GM you are well within your rights to insist to see the player's documentation at the table, this should be no different for a PBP game. If players want to use this medium then they must be willing to make any allowances the GM deems necessary in order to run a society approved game.
Having a game space that would work well with the PBP format and is integrated with these boards would be awesome.
I too have noticed that some of the maps in the scenario PDFs can't be copied out without the overlay text. That makes providing a great game much more difficult. It seems like a newer development in the publishing formats. Please, please, for the love of all things Pathfinder, don't do that!!!
Also, it would be really nice to have buttons that would automatically specify the text format by highlighting the text and hitting the button. As a GM, its really annoying to make all the text formats right when you are running a large combat. A slick way to do that would be really helpful.
Also, it would be really nice to have buttons that would automatically specify the text format by highlighting the text and hitting the button. As a GM, its really annoying to make all the text formats right when you are running a large combat. A slick way to do that would be really helpful.
The Kobold Press forums have something like this. You just highlight the text you want italicised, bolded etc and then click the button. Very useful.
Text format, url, and dice buttons would be extremely helpful. Anyone know how difficult that would be to incorporate?
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As for the character in only one session rule, I would oppose a motion to relax this for PBP games.
I didnt mean removed as much as allowing a few exceptions. Mostly along the lines of if a character is in wrap up but waiting on other players to finish rping or their side quests in older seasons, the DM to report, andbeing able to dedocate youf character to a new game. I do not mean actively playing in multiple games. I agree that would be a not good idea.
Beckett, in those situations I find that the best thing to do is just talk with your GM about it. Most GMs are fairly reasonable about those sort of things. If we make something official then we will get tons of questions about what it means and if it works in these 20 situations, etc. The rules lawyers will have a party and find loopholes we never intended. In this instance, I thing that GMs already bend the rules on it a little and silence is the best policy for the society.
RE players dropping: I have been in a couple of games where the reverse was true, where the GM disappeared and the players waited around for a while before bailing. Once it was a new GM, but the other time it was a VO...
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RE players dropping: I have been in a couple of games where the reverse was true, where the GM disappeared and the players waited around for a while before bailing. Once it was a new GM, but the other time it was a VO...
I've been in the same boat. I, one of the players, happened to have the scenario, so I went out and got everyone else the Chronicle Sheet according to what they had accomplished at that point. Said VO (or VL, I forget) had reported it for everyone else, but me, for whatever reason I have no idea. Wouldn't be Severing Ties would it? I hear it's a pretty popular one for that.
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Last I heard a while ago, the tech team had said that it was basically impossible without a full restarting of the entire website.That's hard to believe ...
I'm not an expert, but Paizo isn't a huge company, and with the amount of archived threads and posts, (heck the original Cleric post for the PF Core book when it came out, alone, . . .) and then having to let the new format reinitialize/render everything would just be far too beyond what they could (or want to) handle. I think it was also mentioned that other formats would require many more full time mods, and things like that.
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I'm not an expert, but Paizo isn't a huge company, and with the amount of archived threads and posts, (heck the original Cleric post for the PF Core book when it came out, alone, . . .) and then having to let the new format reinitialize/render everything would just be far too beyond what they could (or want to) handle. I think it was also mentioned that other formats would require many more full time mods, and things like that.
shouldn't have any bearing on old posts. It's a modification to the entry box code, not old entered data. It's basically adding buttons that insert [b]'s and [i]'s.
The entry box has to be reworked to show formatted text instead of the "coded" text, with a button that switches to the code-view. They probably could not use existing third party controls (that use HTML formatting) because of the old posts (without coverting it all).
Heck, this guy wrote an app that does it from a phone ... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.arcanosoft.wayfinder (makes it easier at least.)
Nah, in the games where the GM bailed we had not really started. Not enough to feel like we were due a chronicle at least.