Hello friends, this thread is purely one posted out of curiosity.
I own almost every core rule book for the game and with the exception of half-elves there are players in my group who feel the elves portrayed in the books look distinctly Asian in appearance (none of my players have issue with the fact, they purely pointed it out and how visually its too close to WoW elves or they look distinctly Asian).
Just curious what everyone's thoughts are, purely cosmetic elements of course - my players have no problem with the fact, its just a disagreement about how the elves appearance compares to the description of Elves.
Thanks in advance.
They look close to an ideal within Asian cultures, and what is pushed by the cosmetics industries. I always felt in some pics, Ameiko looked darn strange, and more elf than Asian.
As for looking like Asians:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Oldboykoreanposter.jpg
Don't forget the ideal and the reality aren't the same. A negative slur for Japanese and Koreans can be "fat heads", not that they look like fey or elves. Mongolians and Malays have very round faces, as do many ethnicities within China.
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What kind of question is this even?
I don't think they look Asian at all. I'm not really sure why you think that.
Don't overlook the all-black eyes, very alien feature there.
But I mean, if they "really" look "Asian" or you think they do... so what exactly?
(I would assume Half-Elves from Tian Xia and Vudra would appear somewhat "Asian" from their Human half)
What about the description of Elves conflicts with the art? AFAIK it doesn't say "definitely does not look Asian", although I still don't know why you think that.
they're a bunch of skinny androgynous 1000-year old aliens that Humans can barely understand, and their "closest" relatives
are the Lashunta, a race of hugely sexual dimorphic beings with antennae.
They look like Wendy Pini's elves from Elfquest crossed with alien Greys.
i admit that Pathfinder's Artwork in General has Animesque Inspiration in their details, including the elves, but i don't consider it a bad thing.
a Lot of Console Strategy games and Free/Low Budget MMOs tend to be cell shaded, Such as Disgaea, Hyperdimension Neptunia, WoW, Record of Agarest War, Tales of (Insert Fancy Word here), many legend of Zelda Games, a lot of the stuff By IGG and Aria games, and even the latest works in the Star Ocean and .Hack lines.
Cell Shaded is a popular art style on console games today, Anime is another popular thing, and the 2 are kind of blending.
Pathfinder, is also Cell Shading their works now in a similar manner, merging the 3 hobbies together because. a lot of console/pc gamers watch or at least heard of anime, and a lot of the newer generation of tabletop gamers, come from the same pool of people.
it doesn't make pathfinder itself more cartoony or more video gamey, merely means, that pathfinder's artists, are tailoring their works to the modern generation.
it isn't too different from TSR's use of overly sexualized female characters to pick up what they thought was a predominately male crowd.
it's a gimmick no different from any other marketing gimmick. tailoring your artwork to the current crowd.
a lot of old school gamers are either dying, retiring, or adapting, because the new crowd of gamers, seems to be the dominant market. a lot of the new gamers are more straightforward and less tactically minded, but more focused on such things as either numbers or concept. usually one extreme to the exclusion of the other, with a few uncommon exceptions. but many old school gamers, played it like any other board game, which is why 3d6 rolled in order was viable in Red Box. it didn't hold up well in AD&D and ever after, when the same character was used for more than one session, 3d6 in order, worked in the concept of everchanging one shots where you had a different character every session. doesn't work for consistent characters.
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BRING BACK ARNOLD TSANG AND HIS RECORD OF LODOSS WAR ELF EARS, DOGMAMMIT!
Really, sometimes I wish that our marvellous fanbase was slightly more appreciative for anything that isn't a clone of Easley or Elmore.
To me, the Golarion look more like "Grey" aliens with hair than WoW or anime elves.
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Depends on what you mean by Asian, I suppose. Russian? Indian? Indonesian? Chinese? Japanese?... etc, etc ;)
They don't really look anime to me, though I'm not a huge fan of the overly exaggerated ears. But I do love the Pathfinder eyes of elves, where they are solid colors. Looks really alien to me and I dig it.
Now gnomes and their wild and crazy hair look like something out of an anime. Not necessarily bad though.
The ears are a bit too big for me, too, but there you go :) . BTW, speaking about "asian" elves, there is something to it - generally, elves in anime tend to have longer, exaggerated ears with points that stick out more from the side of the head that what is typical in "traditional" fantasy art. Pathfinder art tends to have a lot of examples that veer in the first category, but I´m not sure it is a managerial direction or just how some of the artists roll.
The description says:
Although generally taller than humans, elves possess a graceful, fragile physique that is accentuated by their long, pointed ears. Their eyes are wide and almond-shaped, and filled with large, vibrantly colored pupils.
Which seems 100% accurate to the art... What's the problem/discrepancy?
If anything, I would say the art can skew more towards 'Nordic' features than purely the 'Grey Alien' aspect. I am pro-Grey Alien Elf myself.
What is "too" Asian? What makes something "too" Asian? What is the threshold of an excess of Asianness? Can something be "too European?" "Too African"?
I can't really think of any picture of an elf face except the one for the rogue in the core rulebook.
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Can something be "too European?"
A dapper lycanthrope drinking tea while wearing a monocle and top hat?
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Can something be "too European?"A dapper lycanthrope drinking tea while wearing a monocle and top hat?
BRING BACK ARNOLD TSANG AND HIS RECORD OF LODOSS WAR ELF EARS, DOGMAMMIT!
Really, sometimes I wish that our marvellous fanbase was slightly more appreciative for anything that isn't a clone of Easley or Elmore.
Ha, yeah. Although my group hated the look of Shalelu. Those ears, they would surely catch on something. -1 AC perhaps?
Most anime artwork, even that which depicts Japanese or other people from nearby countries, often isn't drawn to make the characters in question distinctively "Asian" anyway, so...
It has nothing to do with racism - it was purely something my players noticed, they have played DnD since Advanced 2nd Edition, then moved to 3.0/3.5 and all the while elves tended to look Tolkienesque, but Pathfinder elves look dramatically different based on artwork alone even though the 3.5 description more or less is similar the artwork is dramatically different. It was purely an observation is all - my players noticed that the majority of elves in the core books look weird yet half elves look more like the elves people classically relate to.
There was never any intent to offend anyone, I was just curious if others out there thought there was a anime like theme to their exaggerated elven features in pictures.
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A dapper lycanthrope drinking tea while wearing a monocle and top hat?
"I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's / And his hair was perfect."
--Warren Zevon| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
[tongue-in-cheek]Actually, I rather thought Asians look rather elf-like. It must be selective breeding among that part of Golarion. The Asian-like humans obviously are emulating elves who they consider superior to humans and thus are breeding facial traits that are similar to the elves!
This also means elves are real, BTW. They used to be on Earth and obviously the old Asian humans were so enthralled that they went on a massive breeding program to emulate elvish features! This explains also why Asians are so long-lived, they're breeding themselves into becoming the next elvish race![/ tongue-in-cheek]
More seriously, elves are described in the book as having almond-shaped eyes. This has also been used as a descriptor for Asians. The reason this was used was probably to move away from the pointy-eared-human trope that elves had been trapped in.
[tongue-in-cheek]Actually, I rather thought Asians look rather elf-like. It must be selective breeding among that part of Golarion. The Asian-like humans obviously are emulating elves who they consider superior to humans and thus are breeding facial traits that are similar to the elves!
This also means elves are real, BTW. They used to be on Earth and obviously the old Asian humans were so enthralled that they went on a massive breeding program to emulate elvish features! This explains also why Asians are so long-lived, they're breeding themselves into becoming the next elvish race![/ tongue-in-cheek]
More seriously, elves are described in the book as having almond-shaped eyes. This has also been used as a descriptor for Asians. The reason this was used was probably to move away from the pointy-eared-human trope that elves had been trapped in.
This makes me want to be asian so I can evolve into an elf.
Yes, I know that's not how evolution works.
[tongue-in-cheek]Actually, I rather thought Asians look rather elf-like. It must be selective breeding among that part of Golarion. The Asian-like humans obviously are emulating elves who they consider superior to humans and thus are breeding facial traits that are similar to the elves!
This also means elves are real, BTW. They used to be on Earth and obviously the old Asian humans were so enthralled that they went on a massive breeding program to emulate elvish features! This explains also why Asians are so long-lived, they're breeding themselves into becoming the next elvish race![/ tongue-in-cheek]
More seriously, elves are described in the book as having almond-shaped eyes. This has also been used as a descriptor for Asians. The reason this was used was probably to move away from the pointy-eared-human trope that elves had been trapped in.
This makes me want to be asian so I can evolve into an elf.
** spoiler omitted **
But... but... t3h p0keem0nz!1!
EDIT: I mean... they taught me everything I kn0w about t3h evolutions!!1! They wouldn't lie to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
You do realize, Meepo, you just pulled a fallacious argument here on the logic.
Elves is point A
Asians is point B
Almond-shaped Eyes is point C
Non-human is point D.
But just because A + C = D does not mean B + C = D because A ≠ B
I could very well pull a fallacious argument by claiming you're using my argument to cry racism to conceal your own - after all, only someone who doesn't believe Asians to be human would see that argument in someone else's argument when it is not actually evident. But that would be a failure in proper logical theory. Because just because you saw racism in my comment does not mean you are racist... just as A does not equal B in my own argument.
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I don't think they look Asian. There are plenty of other ethnicities that have almond shaped eyes that aren't from Asia.
Also, I really hate their big ears. Sorry Gorbacz, but I was glad when Paizo stopped using that artist ;)
That's okay. You should see me bring physics in to explain magical girl physics in the Megatokyo forums. I'm responsible for the near-extinction of catgirls as a result. Heh heh heh.
BRING BACK ARNOLD TSANG AND HIS RECORD OF LODOSS WAR ELF EARS, DOGMAMMIT!
Really, sometimes I wish that our marvellous fanbase was slightly more appreciative for anything that isn't a clone of Easley or Elmore.
I like everything about that picture except the ears, and considering the ears are just about 50% of the picture, I guess I don't like it?
Anyway, I don't think the elves look Asian at all, but they do like "anime" and I think the original poster probably meant that they look like art from Asia, not like actual Asians.
Creative Director
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BRING BACK ARNOLD TSANG AND HIS RECORD OF LODOSS WAR ELF EARS, DOGMAMMIT!
Really, sometimes I wish that our marvellous fanbase was slightly more appreciative for anything that isn't a clone of Easley or Elmore.
Wasn't the fanbase who made that change happen. It was us here at Paizo.
Pathfinder could use a bit more of the Elmore/Easley aesthetic, in my opinion at least. Not every elf needs massive, overemphasized ears, nor does every warrior need massively oversized weapons. I'd love to see more of a classic fantasy look - maybe even some Angus McBride type illustrations.
I know, I know - too european.
EDIT: To be fair, Valero's "short sword" seems to be shrinking with every new illustration of him I see. Look at the cover of Ultimate Combat, for example - yikes, it must be cold out there....
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BRING BACK ARNOLD TSANG AND HIS RECORD OF LODOSS WAR ELF EARS, DOGMAMMIT!
Really, sometimes I wish that our marvellous fanbase was slightly more appreciative for anything that isn't a clone of Easley or Elmore.
I like everything about that picture except the ears, and considering the ears are just about 50% of the picture, I guess I don't like it?
Anyway, I don't think the elves look Asian at all, but they do like "anime" and I think the original poster probably meant that they look like art from Asia, not like actual Asians.
That's what I was assuming.
I actually quite like the Record of Lodoss War style elves. For some reason I really like the giant ears, makes them stand out. But, to each their own.
There was nothing overly racist about my players observations - many of them like playing elves in particular and when they moved into Pathfinder they were curious as why "almond shaped eyes" gets you those big alien looking elf eyes (one even said he put "almond shaped eyes" into a google search and found countless pictures of eyes of every possible ethinticity there us - but wondered why the Elves portrayed looked too much like WoW elves with their huge pointy ears and what passes for "almond shaped eyes" in The artists logic as he drew them.)
No offense was EVER intended, I myself am Chinese/Canadian and find the artwork does look more anime like for elves in particular and a far departure from the elves we classically are used to - for now my group has put it down to "artists interpretation" alone and turned to artwork of the elves they prefer from other sources for their characters. I say "whatever" and keep my players happy - I simply wondered if anyone ageed/disagreed with the observation that elves looked too anime/mangaesque or was it purely the interpretation of the artist who drew it alone. That was all.
That is what I assumed you meant. I agree that early on pathfinder art had a bit of an anime feel and not just the elves. However, they seem to have gradually moved away from it. I'm pretty sure I have read developers talk about this but don't recall where.
There was nothing overly racist about my players observations - many of them like playing elves in particular and when they moved into Pathfinder they were curious as why "almond shaped eyes" gets you those big alien looking elf eyes (one even said he put "almond shaped eyes" into a google search and found countless pictures of eyes of every possible ethinticity there us - but wondered why the Elves portrayed looked too much like WoW elves with their huge pointy ears and what passes for "almond shaped eyes" in The artists logic as he drew them.)
No offense was EVER intended, I myself am Chinese/Canadian and find the artwork does look more anime like for elves in particular and a far departure from the elves we classically are used to - for now my group has put it down to "artists interpretation" alone and turned to artwork of the elves they prefer from other sources for their characters. I say "whatever" and keep my players happy - I simply wondered if anyone ageed/disagreed with the observation that elves looked too anime/mangaesque or was it purely the interpretation of the artist who drew it alone. That was all.
Doesn't really look anime to me. The larger, non-white sclera was to make them look more alien since they are from another planet in Golarion.
What is "too" Asian? What makes something "too" Asian? What is the threshold of an excess of Asianness?
Can something be "too European?"
"Too African"?
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I take offense at your disclaimer!
Hello friends, this thread is purely one posted out of curiosity.I own almost every core rule book for the game and with the exception of half-elves there are players in my group who feel the elves portrayed in the books look distinctly Asian in appearance (none of my players have issue with the fact, they purely pointed it out and how visually its too close to WoW elves or they look distinctly Asian).
Just curious what everyone's thoughts are, purely cosmetic elements of course - my players have no problem with the fact, its just a disagreement about how the elves appearance compares to the description of Elves.
Thanks in advance.
The art is irrelevant. Your elf looks like whatever you want it to look like.
If elven ears are so large, should they be able to wear more sets of magical earrings?
I don't think this thread really has the potential to go anywhere good, and it's already going wildly off-topic, so I'm locking it.