The spell frostbite makes your melee touch attacks deal 1d6+1/level cold/nonlethal damage.
can this be done in addition to another touch attack?
For instance if I cast shocking grasp does it go off?
If I use flame blade does it go off?
If I grapple or trip someone without a weapon does it go off?
frostbite is a normal touch attack so no.
Flame blade? No
If you use your hand to make the attack, and make your to hit roll, then yes.
If you cast another spell, your held touch attack spell fizzles.
But if you have a different sort of touch attack, like a supernatural power from a domain or bloodline, you can use that and have your already-cast frostbite/chill touch/shocking grasp/etc affect them as well.
Frostbite is a touch spell, but once you cast it it just gives your touch attack damage. It doesn't say that you have to make a specific touch attack, like other touch spells do. It says "Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level..." It also isn't a held charge much like Chill Touch, once you cast it it is an effect.
Sorry, I should have liked the spell before.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frostbite
I was wondering something about this spell too. Touch attacks in general I guess. If you have cast a touch spell and have the charge held, and you have a natural attack like a claw, can you make your normal natural attack and have the spell effect layered on top of the usual damage?
Frostbite is a touch spell, but once you cast it it just gives your touch attack damage. It doesn't say that you have to make a specific touch attack, like other touch spells do. It says "Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level..." It also isn't a held charge much like Chill Touch, once you cast it it is an effect.
Sorry, I should have liked the spell before.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frostbite
As you quoted, the spell reads, "Your melee touch attack...". I would take that as meaning that you have to make a melee touch attack.
For example shocking grasp reads (in part), "Your successful melee touch attack deals..."
The only difference is the explicit use of 'successful' but I think we can take that as implied.
But the point I was trying to make is that was the EFFECT of the spell. As I have read on the forums Frostbite and Chill touch are different. Shocking grasp is a touch spell with the effect of damage. Frost bite just says "Your touch attacks do this" as the effect.
I've already read on the forums that frostbite and chill touch work differently with regards to charging the touch attack and durration, and preventing other spells from being cast. I can't see why it wouldn't go off from another touch attack.
e: Adding link
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p77s?Spell-Strike-Frostbite#1
As it says at the end of the spell description, "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."
I read that as you can make touch attacks each round (one time per level). So a 5th level spellcaster could continue to make touch attacks every round until they make 5 successful attacks.
I may not be the best person to answer this question since I've never played a Magnus character but that's the way I read it.
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As it says at the end of the spell description, "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."
I read that as you can make touch attacks each round (one time per level). So a 5th level spellcaster could continue to make touch attacks every round until they make 5 successful attacks.
I may not be the best person to answer this question since I've never played a Magnus character but that's the way I read it.
You can certainly make as many touches as your BAB allow, not only 1/round.
No limitation on the number of attacks you can use in the text.@Sunaj Janus
the rules are unclear about touch spells that give you multiple touches.
The older FAQ request (those made before the FAQ system update) about them have the "Answered in the FAQ" tag but no actual answer in the FAQs. That reply was used to remove a FAQ query from the queue when the question was unclear or the Devs were discussing how it sould work, but there is at least one recent FAQ request about this question here.
Grick ask a bit too much in his question to make it a good FAQ candidate, but the more concise questions are older and closed.
Don't confuse a touch spell attack with the Magus ability to Spellstrike. You can't add any other weapon damage to the damage given by the spell itself. You are merely touching the enemy to discharge one level's worth of the spell. If you have more held, then you can use one per attack in your next turn until you run out of charges or attacks per round... repeatable next turn if you still have charges left. In the round you cast the spell, you would only get your one free touch attack, unless you are a Magus with Spell Combat. As to adding a discharge to a combat maneuver, that is debatable. I don't know if a non-magus can combine a touch attack with grapple (although it would make common sense). They are two different standard+ actions.
It will also fizzle if another spell is cast by that character...no differently than any other touch spell in that regard.
I mentioned Spellstrike because Grimmy asked about adding natural weapon damage to the spell's damage.
It will also fizzle if another spell is cast by that character...no differently than any other touch spell in that regard.
This is a key point to remember. The instant you cast a second touch spell, the first one dissipates. So you cannot stack Frostbite on Shocking Grasp, for instance. The moment you cast the second spell, the first one is gone.
In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Flame Blade is not a touch spell, even though the conjured weapon's attacks are treated as melee touch attacks. In this case you could cast Flame Blade first, then Frostbite and stack the two. The frostbite charges would discharge upon successful hits with the Flame Blade but note that Frostbite would still only crit on a roll of natural 20.
I think I did a really awful job of arguing my point before.
Normally a touch spell charges you with magical energy that you can discharge either into yourself, or into anything that you touch. you get a free touch attack from the spell to accomplish this.
This held charge doesn't actually require your will to discharge though. If I cast shocking grasp and hold the charge, it goes off into the next thing that touches me or I touch. regardless if it is the enemy hitting me with a weapon, me attacking someone with a unarmed or natural attack, me touching a doorknob, or even the cleric trying to heal me. It just goes off.
Also if I cast another spell, any other spell, the charge is lost. This is the rule that frostbite and chill touch ignores. The charge of these spells is not lost from the casting of other spells, and you can continue to make touch attempts in order to spend the charges.
In theory they would continue to discharge all the other normal reason's as well. If this holds true, and you cast shocking grasp and make your touch attack, does frostbite go off?
Also if I cast another spell, any other spell, the charge is lost. This is the rule that frostbite and chill touch ignores. The charge of these spells is not lost from the casting of other spells, and you can continue to make touch attempts in order to spend the charges.
In theory they would continue to discharge all the other normal reason's as well. If this holds true, and you cast shocking grasp and make your touch attack, does frostbite go off?
Says who? I don't see anything in the rules that says Frostbite or Chill Touch ignore the Holding a Charge rules.
However, if you are making unarmed attacks anyway, you could cast Elemental Touch before Frostbite, and discharge both of them.
I mentioned Spellstrike because Grimmy asked about adding natural weapon damage to the spell's damage.
Thanks, I did have spellstrike in mind when I asked my question. I have GM'd for a couple of magus players before and at that time I read up carefully to make sure I understood the rules about touch spells, but I took a break from GM'ing since then and I can't seem to remember.
One player in the group recently tried a druid/barbarian/ranger build that cast frostbite and delivered it with claws and I can't seem to figure out if he can do this or if stacking held charge spell effects onto the damage from attacks is strictly the province of the magus.
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Not sure if this has any bearing:
Touch Spells: If a spell allows multiple touches, are you considered to be holding the charge until all charges are expended?
Yes.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 09/06/13
Also if I cast another spell, any other spell, the charge is lost. This is the rule that frostbite and chill touch ignores. The charge of these spells is not lost from the casting of other spells, and you can continue to make touch attempts in order to spend the charges.
This is not correct.
Frostbite and Chill Touch are touch spells. They are different from other touch spells in that they grant you multiple 'charges' of damage that will be delivered by subsequent touch attacks, in that round or other rounds; however, they still follow the same rules for all other touch spells, in that the moment that you cast another spell - any other spell, not just a touch spell - the 'held' spell (Frostbite or Chill Touch) immediately ends.
The extra 'charges' of Frostbite and Chill Touch are 'held charges' (just like if you cast a Shocking Grasp and don't immediately touch something): They go away the moment another spell is cast.
If I cast shocking grasp and hold the charge, it goes off into the next thing that touches me or I touch. regardless if it is the enemy hitting me with a weapon, me attacking someone with a unarmed or natural attack, me touching a doorknob, or even the cleric trying to heal me. It just goes off.
I do not think that being hit discharges a spell, you have to touch someone yourself. It may sound counterintuitive, but touching someone and being touched by someone is not the same here. Probably because you hold the charge e.g. in your hand and are hit in the body. You don't discarge for touching the ground, either.
As for combining a touch spell with maneuvers or other touch attacks, that is tricky and unclear.
- You cannot combine frostbite with other touch spells, as the second one harmlessly discharges the first.
- You probably cannot discharge frostbite through a maneuver with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, because the text says "Alternatively,
you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." I would say a "normal" attack is not a maneuver, but that is unclear.
- The spellstrike wording makes it more likely that you can discharge a Frostbite charge through your weapon in a maneuver, but that too is unclear.
- The elemental touch wording sounds like it adds to either a maneuver with hand or natural attack or a frostbite touch. Again, unclear.
Regarding discharging touch spells on maneuvers, there's actually a feat that's required to discharge via Spell Strike on a maneuver. Tripping Staff allows a Magus to discharge his touch spell when he trips with a staff; thus establishing that normally, tripping with a weapon while you have a touch spell charged doesn't discharge the spell. From this, we can extrapolate that you don't discharge a touch spell from performing a maneuver against an enemy, even bare-handed.
Good point and sound reasoning.
I'm going to ignore it, however, because the Quarterstaff feats are piss-poorly designed and shouldn't be allowed to influence the rest of the game.
Seriously, a much worse version of Whirlwind Attack needs to be restricted to level 12+?
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Regarding discharging touch spells on maneuvers, there's actually a feat that's required to discharge via Spell Strike on a maneuver. Tripping Staff allows a Magus to discharge his touch spell when he trips with a staff; thus establishing that normally, tripping with a weapon while you have a touch spell charged doesn't discharge the spell. From this, we can extrapolate that you don't discharge a touch spell from performing a maneuver against an enemy, even bare-handed.- You probably cannot discharge frostbite through a maneuver with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, because the text says "Alternatively,
you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." I would say a "normal" attack is not a maneuver, but that is unclear.
- The spellstrike wording makes it more likely that you can discharge a Frostbite charge through your weapon in a maneuver, but that too is unclear.
- The elemental touch wording sounds like it adds to either a maneuver with hand or natural attack or a frostbite touch. Again, unclear.
The question is what the "Special" part of the feat is trying to say.
Tripping Staff (Combat)
You can make a trip attack with your quarterstaff.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature.
Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff.
It is trying to say "only if you are a staff magus you can discharge a spell using spellstrike through a staff while using this feat" or it is remembering us that "if you are a magus you can discharge a touch spell using spellstrike even during a trip attempt, even if you are using a staff"?
AFAIK you can use spellstrike with any melee attack if you have just cast a touch spell or if you are holding a charge and a trip attempt is an melee attack.
Ultimate magic was printed in April 2011, so before this FAQ:
Trip Weapons: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.
Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
At the time the common wisdom was that you had to have a weapon with the trip ability to use it in a trip attempt. so ti is reasonable to assume that the author felt teh need to say "yes, a magus can discharge spellstrike during a trip attempt with a trip weapon."
random interjection.
So wouldn't these charge sorta spells make a nifty mini buff for a monk ? (*insert random way to get it, wand, scroll, some way to get SLA)
Cast it and FOB? Extra damage on all the attacks no?
Yes, that works. Buy a wand of frostbite Caster Level 10 for 7500 gp and for each Standard Action spent on Use Magic Device you'll get 10 of your unarmed attacks doing an additional 1d6+10 subdual cold damage that also fatigues the recipient. That's not even a "mini" buff, that is major.