Question on Spring attack, whirlwind and Imp trip

[Sstrad]

Hello everyone,

I will go on a 6 lvl party. I want to play a lore warden fighter.

here the feats I have.

Combat Expertise (lore warden)
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Improved Disarm

Traits
Eyes and Ears of the City
Finding Haleen (Fighter)

First question:

Can I rush on my ennemies with Spring Attack, Whirlwind on everyone in my reach, Trip them all, and with the AoOs given by Greater Trip, disarm them, and then withdraw from the front line to finish my move with Spring Attack?

[Zhayne]

You must use a full-attack action to use Whirlwind Attack.

[Sstrad]

Zhayne wrote:

You must use a full-attack action to use Whirlwind Attack.

Okay, and if I don't whirlwind, can rush in, trip and then disarm, and rush out?

Or stay right in the front line, Whirlwind everyone with a trip and disarm?

[Zhayne]

Looks legal to me.

[Claxon]

If you're asking can you with Spring Attack make:

1) 10ft move minimum
2) Make 1 melee attack
3) Substitute a trip attempt for the melee attack
4) Get an AoO because you have Greater Trip
5) Substitute a disarm for the melee attack granted by the AoO
6) Move another 10ft minimum move "away"

Then the answer is yes. Please not that Spring Attack only allows you to make 1 attack, so with your plan you will make 1 trip attempt, and if successful make an disarm attempt.

If you are asking can you with Whirlwind Attack:

1) Stand in place and make a full attack action per the rules for Whirlwind Attack
2) Replace the melee attacks against everyone within range with a trip attempt instead
3) If successful make disarm attempts against everyone as AoO

Then the answer is yes.

Otherwise, no.

[Sstrad]

That's exactly what I mean Claxon :)

Thx guys !!!!

[Samasboy1]

Whirlwind attack requires you to forgo extra attacks (such as the extra attack from Improved Trip).

So you could Whirlwind to trip, or Whirlwind to disarm, but not trip then disarm.

You could mix and match, like trip the monk and disarm the fighter, in the Whirlwind though.

[Mathius]

Whirlwind does not require you to give up attack of opportunity. They would not be part of a full attack in the first place. What you have to give up is iterative attacks and attacks from haste and the like.

Note that you can 5 foot step before, during, or after your whirlwind attack. This can bring more foes into reach.

If you pick up improved unarmed strike you can get viscous stomp so each person you trip will invoke 2 attacks of opp from you.

[Claxon]

Indeed, Whirlwind Attack does not cause you to lose AoO. It only makes you give up iterative attacks or extra attacks that you may otherwise get for making a full attack.

[Sstrad]

Mathius wrote:

If you pick up improved unarmed strike you can get viscous stomp so each person you trip will invoke 2 attacks of opp from you.

Is there a limit of the number of AoO I can take ?

Let's say I succeed on tripping 4 opponents, do I have 8 AoO with the right feats? Or do I only have the 3 given by my Combat Reflexe Feat and my Dex 12 ?

[bbangerter]

You are still limited to the number of AoO's you can make a round of 1 + Combat Reflex with dex bonus. Note that a dex of 12 only adds +1, not +2.

[Claxon]

Yeah there is a limit to the number of AoO you can make in a round.

The normal limit is one.

Combat Reflexes changes that. It becomes 1+your dexterity modifier.

With a Dex of 12 you can only make 2 attacks of opportunity a round. You will want to invest in a Belt of Physical Perfection once you can afford (ultimately a +6 to Str/Dex/Con).

So on your turn you would be able to trip everyone in range as your Whirlwind Attack, and be able to make Disarm attempts against two of them.

[Samasboy1]

Well, according to this Whirlwind Attack prevents you from making any additional attacks from "other feats, spells, or abilities."

Since the extra attack from tripping comes from a feat (Greater Trip) it would fall into this category. Thus, no Whirlwind Attack to trip then attacking (including Disarm)

[Kayerloth]

Samasboy1 wrote:

Well, according to this Whirlwind Attack prevents you from making any additional attacks from "other feats, spells, or abilities."

Since the extra attack from tripping comes from a feat (Greater Trip) it would fall into this category. Thus, no Whirlwind Attack to trip then attacking (including Disarm)

I think that is a poorly phrased way to say no additional attacks for Haste or Blessing of Fervor or similar "extra" or "bonus" attacks not that you can't use feats such as Greater Trip. But I'll grant it's rather ambiguously worded.

[Claxon]

That line is about abilities that would normally give you the ability to make additional attacks on a full attack.

It is not meant to prevent you from making attacks of opportunity which is what you're suggesting. You can choose to read it this way, but it does not actually violate the bit about bonus or extra "attacks" because Attacks of Opportunity don't count as "attacks". Attacks as used in the wording of the feat refers to attacks as made as part of a full attack action or standard action, such as a Monk's ki ability to generate an additional attack.

Do a search for whirlwind and greater trip and several threads will show this is the general position among the board and there has not been any FAQ stating otherwise.

[Gauss]

An AoO is not an 'extra attack'. It is an Attack of Opportunity.

An 'extra attack' is when you make multiple attacks as part of a full-attack action.

If you perform a Ctrl+F search of the CRB pdf with the search term of 'Extra Attack' all references to 'extra attack' are part of a full-attack action. Not one single reference to 'extra attack' is part of an AoO. Bonus attack only has one reference (Medusa's Wrath).

- Gauss